Had a little ride along with Todd on the autocross......

OMG that is so funny. Greg you are hilarious.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That was pretty funny :yes:

Todd is better looking in this Video than past Video's.:lol: :lol: Greg,you need a hair cut.:lol: :lol:

:rofl:

:cheers:

Alex

:rofl: great video, Greg, you remind me of Ryan Stiles :rofl:

With anticipation of the event at California speedway next month, I started my pre race inspection and I'm doing a rear brake conversion. It didn't take me long to find a problem.

My frame is cracked on both sides.

I'm really not sure if it's from the SCCA event or the drag race last month. I'm leaning towards the drag racing but it broke at the triangulated mounts which makes me wonder.

My question to chassis and fabrication guys on the forum. Can I have it welded up(Reinforcing) and what type of welding? I still want to make the race in California next month. What would you do?
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...edFrame002.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...edFrame004.jpg

I would clean the frame rail to bare metal passed the OEM Galz.coating.Use a small grinder and bevel the crack to the inside of the frame rail.I would use a tig welder to control the heat in the weld zone.Then metal finish the weld smooth.Trying not to remove any of the frame rail material.Fab a small diamond shaped gusset(3in.tall x4.5 long) for the outside of the frame.Then I fab surport gusset the shape of the frame from the lower bracket to upper on both sides of the the frame.This should spread out the load from the upper link's thur the side of the iner frame back to the shock cross tube.Todd good luck.If you were closer I could help you out.:thumbsup: Scott M.

Clean it - grind it out a bit so it's clean - weld it up - then FISH PLATE it.... I'd tie into the crossmember - which is the origin of the crack. That crossmember was welded with too much heat and caused the metal to become brittle right next to the weld area. Poor welding - plain and simple.

Wow, with that much torque, and that much tire, there must have been a ton of twist on those rear rails to cause a stress crack. It almost looks like the welding in of the 4-link may have weakened the frame rail and made it brittle along the weld edge.
If it were me, I would think the best way to repair would be to get the cars weight supported so that the cracks close up and then re-weld the crack. I would then probably section out the outside of the frame rail and add steel to the inside of the channel to re-inforce the rail. After that, close up the outside of the rail and maybe add another plate of steel to match the rail profile and give it some more thickness.
Without removing the 4-link, the access is pretty limited. Grafting in heavier rear frame rails might be in order during the off season.

BTW --- Welcome to the world of high horsepower and big sticky tires... on 42 year old metal. The too high of heat caused "carbonization" of the base metal... in other words - it became brittle.....

It's really not uncommon nor is it a "big deal" now that you've discovered it. Just make sure you go to a REAL chassis shop that knows how to weld stuff correctly. Lots of people can stick two pieces of metal together -- but that ain't all there is to welding.

just get some beefed up art Morrison frame rails in there!!!!1:lol:
what greg and mock said above will be good to go.

no way it was solely the drag racing... seeing your 60s you didnt hook hard enough to cause that instantaneously, im sure its been a slow process. by the location of the crack you can deffinatly tell it was weaken due to the bracket being welded in...

as far as having someone local do it, Im pretty sure russel still does work at his home shop and for your anal azz he's the only person local i can think of that will work for you. call curtis i think he has his contact info.

Wow. Now you've gone and done it :_paranoid .

:thumbsup: for those pre-race inspections. I'm guessing those don't happen enough for many people. This is a good reminder for everyone.

I was actually kind of proud of myself. :unibrow: :rolleyes: I've always kept a close eye on the rear frame rails. They are original and in very good shape but I was never impressed with the welding that holds the cradle in the car. It's definitely happened within the last 2 events. I get on a creeper and go from nose to tail with a flash light on a regular basis.

John is absolutely correct. It's very important to stay on top of these cars, especially when you run them at the limit like I do. 6000 miles and over 20 races. I'm not surprised but glad I found it before my trip to CA next month.

Thanks for the advice guys. Maybe I'll swing by Ironworks on the way to the event. I wanted to drive the car, but I may end up just trailering to Ironworks and having them fix me up and on my way. If I can't find someone local I trust, which is not likely at this point. Greg, I was thinking the same thing. Tie it into the cradle.

That sounds like the best way to handle it Todd.the crew at ironwork's can fix correctly.:thumbsup:

Damn that sucks man, hope you get it fixed soon!

Yeah...I'm like 8000 mile from home. Cell reception in this sh!t hole isn't going to happen. But I have the internet thankfully. Here's the number I have for Russ. 285-4211 He's the only local guy I know of and you know he does good work.

Best of luck buddy.

:captain:

Don't ask how I know. But we worked on a car :D with the same issue, only worse. The problem is the brackets are alot thicker then the stock frame rail material. And when you weld it in it needs more heat on the thicker material to make it actually penetrate the thicker stuff. Those parts are actually designed to be bolted in and one of my customers who has an engineering masters degree and a degree in welding inspection looked at the car here at the shop and said it might not have broken had we just bolted it in. CRAZY?? So on said car we just plated the outside frame rails with 1/8inch plate to spread the load over more of the rail.

Let me see if I have some pictures

It cracked right next to the weld, there is some fancy word about embrittlement issues that goes with what happened with old metal and new and heat embrittlement blah blah blah.

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/t...ber2010037.jpg

But at the end of the day, when you beat on cars they just break sooner then later.

Todd, Look's like might in good hand's W/Rodger.:thumbsup:

I agree with Curtis, contact Russ.

The frame side of the weld acts like a huge heatsink and depending on how the weld was struck, the speed that the bead was laid, and the "tapering off" of the heat at the end of the bead, the localized heat affect zone might have caused the framerail side to be too brittle. The bracket would likely get hotter during welding, and a sharp end of the weld heat might cause the framerail to cool too quickly from an already lower temperature immediately around the weld... if I had to guess. This kind of heat affect zone is usually much more critical/noticeable in aluminum.

I'd say the crack started at the welded-on bung for reasons I stated above and propogated from all the torque from the upper link trying to pull the bracket away.

There is a major difference in the design of the G-Bar(in my car) and the G-Link that is in Rogers car. The G-Bar has a front crossmember while the G-Link doesn't. Rogers is a severe frame fracture in his first event from my understanding. Mine is a crack after 6000 miles and 20 some races. We all know I don't baby my stuff.

My plan is to have the frame tig welded up and ground flat, then weld on a small diamond shape 1/8" steel bracket on the outside of the frame along with welding it to the cradle. Russ welded up my exhaust at ATS so I have nothing but confidence in him. Problem is, last time I called him, he never called me back.

Wow this has me rethinking the plan to go with the G-link. I'll definitely be hitting the strip on occasion with some sticky tires and I'd prefer my framerails stay intact. One of the things I liked about the G-link was that it seemed to be the stronger setup of the popular 4-link setups available. Maybe it's worth opening up the outside rail and welding in some plate to strengthen that area of the rail as part of the install.

Isn't Dan Holohan working on your Nova.I belive he is one of the best fabricator's to ever turn on a welder.Ask Dan how he would install your rear suspension.:thumbsup:

It's not designed to be WELDED in --- I think it's a BOLT IN design -- which - if it was bolted in - you wouldn't have the embrittlement associated with the welding.

If it was welded in properly -- i.e., with some fish plating and re-inforcement it would probably be just fine.

In Roger's case, I'm not sure embrittelment argument holds up. It's not close to the fracture line like mine. In these triangulated 4 links, the uppers bars take extreme force keeping the rear end centered. With the front crossmember like mine has, both frame rails get loaded. Without, only one really gets loaded which isn't ideal.

Greg is right, they were both designed to be bolted in the chassis. As usual, we all think we know better than the engineer that designed the system. I'm not ready to say that bolting it in would have netted me better results at this point. 1/16" sheetmetal would take a beating either way.

Holy Shiz-nit!! Nice work torque king :D .

Okay so I now have a question

What about using the bolts & panel bonding glue ( fusor ) instead of welding ??

The G-Link manual says to weld the bracket in place. It's a bolt/weld combo.



http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/a...g-linkweld.jpg

I've also heard Bret at Ride Tech mention to weld in an air bar(same as g bar) under extreme conditions.

Bottom line is we have a cracked frame and broken frame with both set ups.

You already have
 

the lower control arms and shock mounts. Eliminate upper bars and build a torque arm and you will not have to worry about that problem again.

Just a thought

In reality, If you beat on stuff to the point it was never intended. It will break. You can put whatever suspension into these cars and in may live in most situations. But sometimes things break.

Now's a good time to put Doc Renner's unpatented panel gap spray to its biggest test. :thumbsup:

Doesn't change the stress loads... and if the bolts don't hold it - the glue ain't going to either. You're just trying to take the heat out of the equation... But PERSONALLY I think the real issue is 500 #'s of TQ and big azz tire loads on a part that was designed for a 6 banger...

Drag racers back half the cars....

Big HP and TQ cars need to build in far stronger support with these super sticky tires... Remember -- these cars are just sheet metal crap.

Sorry to hear that this happened Todd and glad you found out before warping any body panels and needing paint. This does worry me with my new G-link but I doubt I will ever find time to beat on my car as much as you do yours. Glad it can be fixed. :thumbsup:

There would be less chance of welding affecting the metal

Todd hate to hear it and look at it im sorry dude may call Blake over at speed tech and do the torque arm deal
john

With the abuse it's taken, I'm going to reinforce it and stick with what I have. I found the weak link and I'll fix it professionally and move on.

I'm with Greg, these frame rails are thin and GM engineers are probably rolling in their graves right now. If I have problems down the road, it will get thicker rails.