They are a supporting vendor, and they are reputable group of people, when it comes to selling products. Perhaps they did not have the most professional behavior at the time that they were banned from Good Guys shows, and while they do have a number of parts that are very similar to a few other vendors here, to my knowledge (and I have ordered from Fesler on occasion) you aren't going to be ripped off.

Matt

I would agree with Matt.... I had Chris work on my daughters Mustang suspension (she's in college down there) -- they did great work and were far more reasonable than I expected - and I gave Chris carte blanche to just "do whatever it takes".

However, I still think it's morally and patently (not patent as in legal) wrong to plagiarize anyone else's work and or designs without their consent regardless of what it is or who it is.

I can understand wanting to "update" or offer a slightly different version of their hinge to stimulate some more business, but why do almost the exact same design as another exsiting company?

They could have just as easily machined a different pattern....why the "triangular" style, just like RB? Why not a more "square" pattern or "linear pattern" or round cutouts etc etc. There are quite a few way to change it up without doing something just like the Ring Bros.

I can understand that when you make a new and innovative part and its a success, you will end up have copies coming out of the woodwork.....but it will still piss me off.

[QUOTE=Hdesign;359906]I've been watching this thread with A LOT of interest and since Scott brought my name up in an example I'll add my $.02 for what it's worth.

What I provide is a service, I produce intangible design solutions to problems. The only product I produce currently is a print of the final design. The intellectual property is owned by myself and/or my client depending on the agreement.

There is no more difficult position to be in than a designer/artist when it comes to protecting intellectual property and art. It's a real Catch 22. 25% of my week is spent battling someone from using unauthorized art in ads, or attempting to sell multiple prints and shirts from a design I've done in the past, or a shop ripping off an innovative design element a client paid me to. All they have to do is ask and we can figure out something that is mutually beneficial.

Then again, I do like having my work viewable as marketing assets. Potential clients need to see my thought process in order to feel confident in my services. I have to hang intellectual property out in the breeze for all to see, knowing that it's going to get ripped off and I won't get credit. It happens more than I'd like to admit.

I have to be a rabid pitbull sometimes and it's incredibly frustrating. Some people are either totally ignorant to intellectual property laws or they flat out don't give a damn. They don't realize/care that this is what puts food on a designer/artist's table. They're literally stealing from my family.

That said, I'm moving into the next phase of my business plan which includes development of parts, prints and apparel. The amount of legal BS that I've been dealing with for the past 12 months is insane, but I want to be sure I'm protected from every single angle against this stuff. I know I'm not going to stop every lazy slug from ripping off something but I'

I will agree with you. After reading this thread i will now buy only RB. Im glad that they came out and said something. Its sad how things work in this world but im sure glad that we have :lateral: .

I agree with 96z28ss, looking at the pics,the hinges are not same or even close. People need to understand, that no matter of design, they still have to bolt up to factory bolt holes serve their purpose as factory,so in the end they might have simillar look,because of it compact constraints ,the moving parts can only have certain shape.

I don't know how Fesler came up with their version,but there is nothing wrong with variety and good competition,as long as it's not exact copy and all good quality stuff. However I can somewhat relate ,because I have some time in design and producing composite parts.But at the same time you can't expect or assume that you are the only company that will be making and selling hinges or any billet parts. There are plenty of companies with high-tech equipment and software that can design and produce parts out of billet or some exotic materials.I am a big fan of RB :lateral: Just keep at it,be creative and put out quality parts,you will succeed.:woot:

I will also say that Chris is a good vendor and anyone dealing with Fesler will get great customer service .:thumbsup:

Fesler's Response. . .WARNING-LONG POST
 

Hello everyone, it is Carrie Fesler. . . Chris’ wife. Chris would love to respond personally but he is currently behind the wheel of our show rig driving us and our displays to MN. So for now, I will have to do.

First and foremost, I would like to thank Ring for posting our newest advertisement on the front page of this thread. . .complete with our website and phone number.

Second, I hope this (what is now a) 6-page thread was able to mend the hearts, pride and minds of Mike and Jim Ring. I can’t imagine going through life or trying to run a business with stuff like this getting under your skin.. . .especially with what is out there right now. Hopefully all the well wishes and pats on the back will be enough to get them through.

Third, Bob said it best in his post. I could have not summed it up better (of course I will be forced to try) or with better examples. It is disappointing though that no one really acknowledges (even the administrators) his post or the accuracy of it. Instead, the fingers keep typing without absorbing anything other than what fits their vindictive minds. To refresh everyone’s memory. . .

I started thinking about what you wrote Matt.
On my Camaro I have the old style Ringbrothers Hinge. It has the shock pointing downward. Also my early version has an adjustable link that tie the 2 arms together (they stopped doing that) . These were the only Hinge at the time of purchase. attachment 1.

I did a search here for when Fesler announced his hinge summer of 2007 this thread.
https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10434

Looking at the pictures you can see that his hinge is more then a 10% difference. The base is different, his shock placement is different, the arms are different.

The weird thing is that now Ringbrothers changed the camaro hinge to a base and shock position that look more like the Fesler ones. attachment 2.


Fourth, I know I would never be able to leave this post with just that so I will defend us with the following facts. . .
Fact 1: Ring Brother did create the first billet hood hinge for both the 67-69 Camaro and 64-66 Mustang. For comparison purposes, I will be referring to the Camaro hinge since that is the one everyone is moaning about. Just as Bob stated, when Ring first introduced their hinge their base was quite a bit larger than it is now and their strut came down at roughly a 45-degree angle. They also used a heim joint. . .not a dogbone.

Fact 2: Fesler (in 2007) approached Ring with a 1970 Chevelle hood hinge which we had designed for a customer’s car. We had no interest in manufacturing hood hinges and thought Ring would be the best choice to approach with our design to see if they would be willing to private label our design for us just as they were doing for DSE (which by the way was the first company to SELL billet hood hinges). It was shocking to learn that Ring had zero control over their manufacturing process and simply subbed the work out to small production shops. It was also disappointing to learn that they had no interest in creating parts for the Chevelle market since it was, according to them, a soft market with little chance of selling. Left with no other choice and believing that the Chevelle market was worth entering, we stepped up, bought the necessary machinery and began manufacturing what is now known as the 708 hood hinge for 69-72 Chevelles. A hinge that Ring now offers coincidently.
So, after being snubbed by these supposedly coolest and most down to earth people ever we continued to expand our line by re-engineering the Camaro hinge to operate correctly, alleviate the firewall rubbing from the angled arm and discontinued the use of the inadequate and dangerous heim joint and replaced it with our dogbone that we copied from our dog’s name tag hanging from his collar. We also managed to increase the hood opening by more than 6 additional inches with the new “horizontal strut” design. It does not take a genius to figure out what type of strut position Ring’s hinges are in now or that their magical, necessary heim joint has disappeared from their design.
With that being said, let’s address the air frame or geometric design. I am a business. The end goal of any business is to make money. If it wasn’t, it would be called a hobby, not a business. So, knowing that we are a business, we are here to make money. Those of you who know us already know that we decide what product to make by how many requests we get from the public. This determines the order in which we design, prototype and manufacture new products. If people constantly ask me for a product I do not have, you can bet your britches I am going to offer it. I highly doubt Ring turned away any customers who wanted SS struts instead of their black Lucid struts back when they did not offer SS. I bet they found a way to find and sell what their customers were asking for.

Fact 3: Fesler designed, prototyped, manufactures and sells right around 29 first gen Camaro specific products along with an additional 14 or so universal parts that will fit the Camaro. Ring, according to their website as of today offers right around 8 products specific to the first gen Camaro. I don’t think it is necessary that I go on and on comparing products but it is obvious that Ring has come out with product similar to ours after we have initially introduced them.

Fact 4: Fesler is a business and because of the overwhelming positive feedback and requests for new products we are now a serious manufacturing facility. Ring are car builders, and great ones at that, who supplement their builds with sales of some of the products they have designed for customer cars. I am only assuming this is their position and I may be wrong but from what I observe, Ring seems far more committed to continuing to build their impressive, award winning projects than they do to creating a massive line of billet parts. It’s hard to do both.. . we know.
We are so committed to manufacturing that we spend stupid amounts of money to attend SEMA every year and display our products in our own booth. Other companies do not “pony up” per say for that position, they simply share space with other, larger exhibitors to avoid the real cost of operating, displaying and advertising as a real manufacturer. These are the reasons General Motors along with other reputable companies such as Baer Brakes, OER, Chris Alston’s Chassisworks, Ididit, Asanti, PRC, just to name a few have recognized our efforts and dedication to producing a quality product. It’s not like we pull this stuff out of thin air, we work hard for products and the recognition we receive.

Fact 5: In reference to being called out one year at SEMA, yes there was incident involving Fesler and Marquez. I can only imagine what the story is now, years later, regarding this event but the fact of the matter remains that the incident was a heated discussion that turned angry when one individual felt it necessary to refer to someone’s wife as an “F-ing Stupid B!t@^”. As you can imagine, that didn’t go over well. Other than that, the conversations we have with Marquez are our business and unless he feels it necessary to include all of you, I simply will not go there. Of course I will be accused of avoiding the situation and not explaining or answering to your questions, however, it is none of your business and is irrelevant to the question at hand.

Fact 6: Fesler has been banned from all future Goodguy’s event. . . voluntarily. This resolution was mutual between the Goodguy’s organization and Fesler. If you were not there, then you don’t know what happened. Plain and simple we were bored of the price increases, favoritism, and decreasing spectator and participant attendance. It costs money to attend shows, set up, man the booth and leave a running business so the ROI (return on investment) has to be there for it to be worth it. Simply said, Goodguy’s wasn’t working for us anymore. So we moved on. We are still attending shows, just not on the Goodguy’s circuit.

Finally, both Chris and I have the utmost respect for Ring Brothers (or at least we did until this post) and Marquez design. All of these guys are great designers and truly stand out in this industry. We have never disputed that. . .ever. Just because we have our differences, doesn’t mean we still cannot respect each other. These message boards are so full of people picking fights and others joining whatever cause make them feel slightly better about themselves. If you are not in the manufacturing business, then personally I don’t feel you are qualified to even have an option. Just because you read about it on the internet, doesn’t make it so.

I am over the he said, she said drama. I have no interest in pointing fingers and any attempts to say I did so are pure ignorance on the person who dares. The market is big enough for everyone, even the ones that don’t do it right. Competition is what drives any market and if you don’t believe me, pay attention to some advertising heavy hitters like Coke vs Pepsi or Chevy vs Ford or Kleenex vs Puffs.

Buy the brand you like based on what you know personally. That is a decision I can understand and respect.

Until next time. . . happy motoring.

lol...??? Yeah that respect was def. Shown in the marquez booth a few years back...
the post was created out of frustration because when you all got into the billet biz (after have rb and marquez products on hand) rb decided to be creative and differ their design form the "traditional" hinge look with the air frames and you bite that design plan and simple since your not artists and just in the biz of making money (yes your very good at that aspect of it, customer service and knowing what's needs to be brought in the market)you don't understand how upsetting it it when others just rip off your personla creative
work...

my "Thread Closed" senses are tingling.

With all do respect.. Mr or Mrs Fesler whichever posted the above it seems to me that you saying your product is not the same because a boss is thicker or the strut is on a Diff angle or that you used a heim joint over a dog bone.

Are you saying its OK to copy a product make some simple changes and that is OK?

Or are you saying you engineered a product very much like the originator by happenstance and as evidence note the angle difference on the strut and the joint Difference?

ALSO for what do you attribute your companies ability to release so many products? Do you outsource the R&D or what because I can see how you could make so many products without a head start.

i can understand that the pickup points need to be the same and that RB should not feel entitled to being the only manufacture, but to copy the arms air frame design was a slap in the face. that for me put it over the top.