Just read some responses to the NRA call for staffing schools in the local news paper.... and it's interesting that the SPLIT is so obvious - the elected officials think guarding the schools is a ridiculous idea - and they clamor for gun bans... but every police department (except one) thought it was a good idea and already had "SRO's" (School Resource Officers) in place. There was - of course - the question of cost and who pays. That is a natural consideration. Thus my earlier proposal to tax guns and ammo etc heavily.

King County Sheriffs Dept. --- the largest population base in the state --- has been having budget issues for YEARS...


http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/...tions-schools/

The last three years have been above "factored" historical sales, all 3 of the dealers have been around for 20+ years. It's like selling Harley's in the early 90's :D

Yes, up until this morning it was a good idea to arm teachers and a popular idea. I am willing to bet it has dropped significantly since it was now suggested by the NRA spokesman. It would be totally voluntary as it is already in some states.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/pitw/a...o-arm-teachers

http://www.wsbtv.com/videos/news/tea...to-arms/vknjT/

http://www.covnews.com/section/12/article/35341/


Even then it would be talks instead of Neanderthal style bantering.

Saw this today...

Rick Godwin ‏@ricklgodwin

"Was listening to several celebrities outraged at guns. No one should have them. However their bodyguards carry guns?? Hypocrisy moment!"

The gun Genie is already out of the bottle, there is no way to put it back in. You could never collect every weapon, and once again only the bad people would have them.

Some blame this craziness on violence on TV and movies. Hell when we were kids, John Wayne, and Clint Eastwood killed everyone in movies, and we never went crazy. I still say its the decline of the family, Mom isn't able to spend the time in little Tommy because she is at work. I don't know what the answer is, but I know more knee jerk laws aren't going to fix anything. Just gives our stand up politicians more face time on TV, and they can tell us how much they care, while they are sticking the screws to us.

Agree on all points. The growth of dual income parents is major element at the heart of declining values and ethics within the younger generations IMO.
:(

That's funny.

When you think about it... Obama probably has 10 or 15 guys with machine guns within yards of him -- and snipers with 50 cals on every rooftop -- but that's OKAY! Why? Because he trusts those people -- so it must not be about guns - it must be about the people with the guns.

Dammit GW, If you don't stop trying to apply logic to this... :willy: We are at knee-jerk defcon 5 and you keep trying to be rational!



Jeff-

More tinfoil hat..... I've seen this stuff on a local car site, I'm not searching this stuff out myself. BUT..... It makes you think for sure!!


"This is coming from a non-bias opinion on gun control, but there ARE a few obvious things, that make you wonder.

Watch this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=fn_nYrUmRkE

Then this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKWgCRBR5qE

Then this O_o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShgdN8arHCc

Make you think that there are a lot of people with to much time on their hands. These links and claims are total BS. I know MULTIPLE families that lost members and to put these types of claims out there is just nonsense. If these were indeed actors wouldn't you think some of the other families would come out and say...hey thats not the same father I met at PTA meetings, thats not the same mother I sat next to in church, thats not the same uncle i played football with. Is the media, the left, the right, and 5 minutes of fame people are playing this for all its worth and its makes me sick. Not as sick as these "conspiracy theory" people. Now the medical examiner probably wasn't the best person to speak but the idiotic questions by the media was just as insulting.

It would be interesting to see what kind of hell would break out if there was an attempted public attack of any scale on Obama............if the media would air any of it.

PS -You left out security for Air Force 1.........think it's up in the air all by it's lonesome? That's one section of the military budget that won't get cut. :D

ahhh ok we just got flagged by homeland...wave everyone:thumbsup:

Wow..I'm off the grid for a few and everything goes crazy. Certainly a tragic incident that we all must work to lessen the chances of happening again.

I just read all 22 pages and there are a few good ideas here. Sadly, they all have draw backs.

Todd is on the right track of having an armed officer in every school. No he/she can't prevent this from happening, but it would add a layer of protection and be a show of force. A show of force can often be a huge deterrent. Obviously ill doers of this type pic targets that are unprotected. Odds of success are in their favor. Take that away and there's a chance they will move on. Sadly, in Las Vegas the school police don't get involved when sh!t hits the fan. Instead they stand back and call in Metro. Reason is the school district policy. Still, it's a great idea.

I also like Todds idea of a required training course when purchasing your first firearm, but believe it should be taken a bit further. I'd like to see that for every type of firearm purchased. Semi-auto hand gun, revolver, rifle and shotgun. Additionally, I think that training should cover the safe storage of guns in ones homes. Todd mentioned that he attended a hunters safety course, something I have also done. A great program, but not nearly enough and hunting isn't what it used to be.

Education is a huge factor in all of this (and a lot of other things). That starts in the home!! Parents who own firearms need to teach their children. Yes we have violent video games and movies, but that's not an excuse. I know several young men and woman (under 14-ish) who's fathers have spent taken the time to educate their children on the subject of guns and it's been nothing but positive.

I wish more of you would try and look at it (the best you can) from a criminals point of view. Where and how would you commit your crime? Only then can you come up with an idea of how to protect your self from being a victim. There isn't one answer to it, every situation is going to be different. Doesn't matter if you carry or not, don't be sheep is what I'm trying to say.

I hope that none of you have been a victim of a violent crime and that you never well be. Me...it was a lot closer than I care for. I won't go into a big story on it, but will leave it at a violent rapist, who beat his victims to within an inch of their life was after a former girl friend with whom I lived with. Knowing a sick person has been in your home and jacking off your girl friends undies drawer would make any man angry. It was at that point in my life that I started to carry (as did the girl friend). The police where well aware of what was happening, but admitted that they are only reactive. My point? What do or would you do if you where face to face with someone intent of doing harm to you or your loved one? What would you do to protect them if you're not there?

We all keep our G-Machines locked inside and insured. We have locked doors on our homes and security systems for protection. Heck, we even wear shoes to protect our feet. Why wouldn't you protect your right to life in every way possible? I know that some people are not comfortable with guns and I understand that. Still they should have some level of protection.

The talk of limiting magazine capacity won't solve anything. Anyone can drop a mag and insert another rapidly with practice. Doesn't matter if it's a hand gun or an AR style rifle. I'm not the fastest guy out there, but it takes me about 2 seconds with my Colt M4 and less with my SIG P226. If you do carry and are forced into a employ your hand gun defensively, you know you're probably not going to connect with every round. Scarey as you are fighting for you life. You probably won't have the opportunity to reload or may not have a second magazine. In that type of a situation you'll want as many rounds as your gun is capable of holding, so you can connect and eliminate the threat.

Talk of banning AR style rifles is equally as silly. Your washing machine can be made into a bomb. No joke and it doesn't take much. Every time you walk into the local Gas N Go you have all the items needed to make several types of weapons or explosive. A weapon that can cause a great deal of damage is always accessible is my point.

Yes, I am Pro Gun. Why? I'm a realist and I know that there are dangers in life and realize that bad people will do me harm if I allow it. I do all I can to protect my loved ones and myself from harm on every level. I even protect you and your family every time you are a passenger on my airplane...yes, I have a gun in the cockpit. I am not a bad person because I carry or because of the type of firearms I own.

Guys, don't count on someone else for you safety. Be aware and be prepared. If a firearm isn't for you fine, but respect those who are. They are good people to. Be smart and educate your self on guns, even if you are against them. If you own one, practice with it and be proficient. Seek out additional training and educate your children on them (speaking safety here). Let's be smart about it.

I've said this previously -- that the mere mention of a ban would be a boon for sales... Well -- check out this headline!


http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...,7596545.story

The crazy run was on 30 round magazines which can't be found anywhere. Seems like anything that holds more or less is still to be had.

Funny how the media can't get things right. The Bushmaster used was an XM15 not an AR15. Maybe Google isn't working on their end. :rolleyes:

Does the media ever get anything right?? :lol: :lol:

The entire post was well said Curtis :thumbsup:

To back the mag capacity debate, when shooting league with my .45 we shot one series that had a timed 10 yard standard torso target, you shot 12 rounds, 6 rounds in two mags, start with a mag in the gun chamber open gun on the table, hands in the air, commence on the firing line signal with 8 seconds to complete the series. All but a few of the 40 shooters could complete that successfully. I'm not tooting my horn but pressing the point of semi-auto and low capacity mag capabilities, 70% of the time shooting that series I would put all 12 in the 10 ring (target also has an X ring). I'm also pretty fast with a revolver and speed loaders. Point is with a little practice the speeds can be surprising.

If some looney-toons wants to - he could easily kill all the kids and teachers in two or more classrooms of kindergarten and first graders with a friggin' baseball bat!

What's a bunch of kindergarten kids going to do to an adult bent on committing mayhem (sorry Stielow!)? ZERO...

The whole raging gun debate is just that - a raging debate. It solves absolutely nothing.

Today we read about a whack job ex con killing volunteer firefighters... It never stops. His gun was ILLEGAL! Does he care about laws? He killed his own grandmother with a f'n' hammer! Laws mean nothing to people like this.

Until people of the world get that, there's not much to talk about.

One of the fundamentals that is consistently over-looked/not factored or what-ever IMO is the people making the laws look at the punishment from THEIR perspective. What is a deterrent to a law abiding citizen is not in the least a deterrent to a seasoned criminal. Until we start writing laws and delivering punishment that gets the attention of the seasoned criminal we're just pouring water in a bucket full of holes.

Crazy people will kill using whatever method available. The worst school homicide in the US was not gun related.

The lousy reality is you can't protect everyone from everything and the more you try to the less freedom will remain.

There isn't one magic bullet that will cure the ills of society. It's not that I believe we should do nothing but we should all take a breath and make sure we are thinking clearly when we discuss what to do.

I own guns. I think anyone without a criminal record by the age of 30 who goes through proper training should be allowed to conceal cary. I also don't think that weapons that are easily converted to automatic or that can accept magazines over 10 rounds should be sold to the public. JMO and those things won't solve anything over night but in the long run it couldn't hurt.

But then again I think we should stop sending billions in foreign aid to other countries while we ignore the mental health of our own citizens. If we cracked down on people who game the entitlement system and focused funds on those members of society who really can't function on their own that sure wouldn't hurt.

The list of things that need to be fixed are long. Where to start?

Just as info I posted the worst school disaster info below.



The Bath School disaster is the name given to the violent attacks of May 18, 1927 in Bath Township, Michigan, perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe, that killed 38 elementary school children,[Note 1] six adults, and also injured at least 58 other people. Kehoe first killed his wife, fire-bombed his farm and set off a major explosion in the Bath Consolidated School, and then committed suicide by detonating a final explosion in his truck. It is the deadliest mass murder in a school in United States history.[1]
Andrew Kehoe, the 55 year old school board treasurer, was angry after his defeat in the Spring 1926 election for township clerk. He was thought to have planned his "murderous revenge" after that public defeat and he had a reputation for difficulty on the school board and in personal dealings. In addition, in June 1926 he was notified that his mortgage was going to be foreclosed.[2] For much of the next year, a neighbor noticed Kehoe had stopped working on his farm and thought he might be planning suicide. During that period, Kehoe carried out steps in his plan to destroy the school and his farm by purchasing and hiding explosives.
Kehoe's wife was ill with tuberculosis, and he had stopped making mortgage payments; he was under pressure for foreclosure. Some time between May 16 and the morning of May 18, 1927, Kehoe murdered his wife by hitting her on the head. On the morning of May 18 at about 8:45 a.m., he exploded incendiary devices in his house and farm buildings and the ensuing fire destroyed them.
Almost simultaneously, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many schoolchildren. Kehoe had used a timed detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of incendiary pyrotol, which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers gathered at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and used a rifle to detonate dynamite inside his shrapnel-filled truck, killing himself, the school superintendent, and several others nearby, as well as injuring more bystanders. During rescue efforts at the school, searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol connected to a timing device set for the same time as the first explosions; the material was hidden throughout the basement of the south wing. Kehoe had apparently intended to blow up and destroy the entire school.

Greg you have a solid point. The paper laws are written on does nothing to stop a criminal. In this case of the gun debate, it's the lawful citizens who are being punished. For what? Criminals always look for an opportunity and an easy target. Someone who is aware and prepared is a deterrent.

I recall seeing in one of Todds posts that a person with a hand gun can't defend against an attacker with an Assault Rifle. At a distance that's true. Not so much in a close quarters environment. It was mentioned that the female Principle of the school lunged to stop the attacker. She was close enough to engage the shooter (regardless of what type of firearm he had) to engage him. Same with the CCW holder in the OR mall shooting. Two similar, yet very different situations. The Principle most likely had a better chance of success (wasn't there, so I can't say for sure). The CCW guy at the mall, made a wise choice knowing that the chances of collateral damage was much higher.

The VOCAL minority will clamor -- and the SILENT majority (some 60% of homes in America have guns) will be silent...

This is all about the non gun people rising up and using any "evidence" they can to press their case/advantage... and we the silent people will probably just sit back and let them because we won't want to offend anyone.

That has been the case in the past, but I'm under the impression that more and more gun owners are becoming more vocal. My wife has her CCW and is active on a few forums for gals that carry. She's shared more than a few stories of situations where a gal was forced to use her firearm to protect her self. The main purpose is bring awareness and educate the members of that community. Often those people who have had to use their weapon in self defense don't want to talk about what happened, but that's changed with all the anti gun talk against lawful citizens. They are starting to talk more openly about what happened, bringing the positive side of firearm ownership into the main stream. The media of course doesn't want to hear it, good news doesn't sell. Neither do the hard core anti gun types. It's a slow change, but a welcome one. Theirs nothing like learning from someone who's been there and done that.

I'll say it again. Education is the key.

I think more accountability would also help....in some cases. It's already been established that these deranged people in many cases want attention as long as they can get it. If they were to be held accountable...on the spot, they may rethink their actions.
Check out this story: (the short of it)
Man beats girlfriend.
Grandfather tells boyfriend to stop.
Boyfriend decides to attack grandfather.
Grandfather shoots boyfriend.
Boyfriend dies.
Police file zero charges.
Result...accountability mucho tax dollars saved.
The guy probably didn't do it for attention, but I guarentee, he was held accountable.
http://www.courierpress.com/news/201...in-front-yard/

Today when little Johnny doesn't listen in school, it's a disease. Everything is a disease's fault instead of the persons fault. I too had a listening problem when I was a child. My father had an "over the household" cure. He kicked my ass until I listened. He held me so accountable that it only took one ass kicking to cure my "disease". And he didn't even go to med school!

There are a lot of legitimate medical conditions. There are also some pretty significant learning disabilities in some kids. Some cannot be cured with boot to butt. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree with the point you are trying to make. A halfway decent parent can cure 99.9% of all these "syndromes" with a little bit of attention and a lot of discipline. I thank my mom today for the a$$whippings I got and know I should have gotten many more. Kids desperately need rules, accountability, and respect for others.



Jeff-

It definitely wasn't me that made that statement. An educated and trained individual with a hand gun has a very good chance of ending the life of an individual with an assault rifle. In close quarters and that's exactly what a school promotes. :cheers:

I don't remember ANY kids in my schools with learning disabilities growing up. I was in school in the 50's & 60's. Graduated HS in 1971. If you were a problem in class - you were sent to the Principals office... if you were a real problem - you probably got "spats" with a board! You spent time after school in a room by yourself or with other problem children that day. Trust me - I was one of those.

It wasn't until my son was finally diagnosed with A.D.D. that I discovered I also had that. It explains a few things looking back. BUT -- I never had meds - and I got a good education. I didn't hate school nor did I hate the teachers. I missed a bunch of critical "points" that I later had to go back and figure out... but when you're an adult - you can think about what parts are missing and take corrective action. If you are a responsible person and want to actually succeed.

My son graduated College... and his A.D.D. is way worse than mine! Neither of us is A.D.H.D (the hyperactive version - even though Charley calls me the Tasmanian Devil :D ).


We were taught RESPECT! And there was a price to be paid if you weren't respectful! That respect was to be shown to EVERYONE including your fellow classmates. You could learn that the easy way - or through the seat of your pants. :thumbsup:

I feel we are better prepared and educated since the last ban. With sites like Calguns.net and its legal backing I envision a long battle. Advantage goes to pro-, better funded and ready for the fight. Historically the anti's are under funded, devotion to fight is limited and often react too late. Point, the original assult weapons ban expired years ago...banned guns have been in circulation for 7 years. They react now.

another factor....
"Gun rights groups have given more than $17 million in... contributions to federal candidates and party committees since 1989. Nearly $15 million, or 85 percent of the total, has gone to Republicans. The National Rifle Association is by far the gun rights lobby's biggest donor, having contributed more than $14 million over the past 15 years.

"Gun control advocates... contribute far less money than their rivals -- a total of nearly $1.7 million since 1989, of which 94 percent went to Democrats."




Its tough, everything is very sensitive. Now the government has a say on how you will raise your child. Time outs? Go to your room? are you serious? I would have loved a time out growing up.

Recently a teacher was fired for locking a child in a room for acting out and hitting a fellow student. Schools getting sued for verbal abuse when a teacher confronted a child who was cussing at other students.

respect starts at home and some kids are not getting it.

What kind of law is going to protect ANYONE from this nut job? Seriously....




Spengler killed himself as seven houses burned around him.



Earlier, police said Spengler had left a three-page typewritten note saying he wanted to burn down the neighborhood and "do what I like doing best, killing people".

they might ban fire. stocking up on matches and flint sticks.

Nope, that's not on the agenda!!

We can't count on a single source (not saying that was your point) such as the NRA. At the moment the gun control advocates are getting a lot of bang for their 1.7 million. It's up to each of us to stand up for all our rights. We each need to do what we can to support each other at times like these, regardless of the issue.

I haven't heard anything on the Gov. attempting to control the way a family disciplines children in the home and agree that putting limitations on parents is over stepping their bounds by a great deal, if that's the case. However, it is a good message to parents. As I've been saying, it starts at home. Yes there are cases where a child may have an illness that causes problems and a few or our members have mentioned the challenges they face due to that kind of thing. I can only imagine how hard that must be and would love to see more information and help available to them. Americans are a pretty giving bunch and there's not better place to give assistance than to our own. The right kind of help that is.

It sounds like something our elected officials could do, is put in place some solid laws that protect teachers/schools from stupid lawsuits. I have several friends who are teachers and the challenges they face on a daily basis just is sometimes ridiculous. Again, we the people need to stand up and demand that our educators and the education system are protected smartly and fairly.

I don't have children, but I believe that our education system is very important and support it 100%. Your children are important to me. They are part of my future as well.

On another note: Todd, sorry buddy I may have confused who said that. I was honestly a bit surprised.

This actually happens more than you'll hear about. My wife being a dispatcher has to be pretty savvy on Nevada law and is a great source of information. Sad part is that there is very little attention given to cases like this. I wish they would be discussed and studied more often. They are lessons that we all can learn from.

As for the disease's being at fault....that's a byproduct of our legal system. It seems like every case we hear about the argument is that it's not the criminals fault and they are argued as being a victim. Often a victim of our society. I ask, how are we at fault for someone who breaks the law. Everyone by the age of five, knows the basics of right and wrong. The actual cases where there is a problem (in the schools or otherwise) are rare. Those cases deserve more attention. A student who has special needs, should get the required help. Forcing a student who has special needs into a regular classroom is very wrong. As Todd stated, his wife Kelly has more than one and the challenges of those students slows the progress of the rest of the class. It's a delicate situation, but why do we allow those types of issues to have a negative impact on an entire class? In the end, it becomes a drag on our society as a whole.

That is very interesting Jerry. I wonder if it is really supported by Consitutional law theorists/educators/jurists or is just an editorial opinion in a pro-gun state?

I hope the current admisintration does not trample on the second ammendment. :(

Look at this moron






Then there is this..

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/st...ringfield.aspx

While that guy was talking (or was it droning on) I was re-loading.... and at one point I had my AimPoint laser between his eyes.


:unibrow: :lol:

In my search for more information on the gun subject, I came across this:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf

I'll warn you that it is 42 pages of questions and comparisons, but well worth the 10 minutes it'll take you.

Thank god dip stick holes like this one don't have or want to own firearms. Only thing my guns have ever killed was my bank roll.

2nd amenment was created to kill Brits? I know the comedy sucks, but to kill someone over it? Nut case.

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/m...unshots/nTnGR/

The Loganville mother of two assumed the knocks on her front door Friday afternoon were from a solicitor.

“Don’t answer,” she yelled to her 9-year-old twins playing downstairs.

When the visitor began repeatedly ringing the doorbell, she called her husband at work.

“Get the kids and hide,” he told his wife.

As he dialed 911, his 37-year-old spouse, who works from home, collected the children and hid with them in a crawlspace adjoining her office. By that time, the intruder had forced his way into the three-story residence on Henderson Ridge Drive with a crowbar, authorities said. He allegedly rummaged through the home, eventually working his way up to the attic office.

“He opens the closet door and finds himself staring down the barrel of a .38 revolver,” said Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman, who relayed the woman’s narrative to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He asked that her name be withheld.

The woman fired six bullets, five of which hit Paul Ali Slater in the face and neck area, Chapman said. But Slater was still conscious.

“The guy’s face down, crying,” the sheriff said. The woman told him to stay down or she’d shoot again.

Slater, unaware that she had emptied her chamber, obliged as the mother and her children ran to a neighbor’s house.

The injured burglar eventually made it out of the home and into his car, driving away before deputies arrived on the scene. He didn’t get far.

“When you got five bullets in you, it makes you kind of disoriented,” Chapman told the AJC.

Deputies found Slater bleeding profusely in a neighbor’s driveway.

“I’m dying. Help me,” he told them, according to Chapman.

Slater was transported to Gwinnett Medical Center and is expected to survive, the sheriff said.

The Long Island native, who now lives in Gwinnett County, was released from the Gwinnett jail in late August after serving six months for simple battery and three counts of probation violation. Slater has six other arrests in Gwinnett dating back to 2008, according to jail records.

“My wife’s a hero,” the woman’s husband, Donnie Herman, told Channel 2 Action News in a brief statement. He did not respond to a request for comment from the AJC. “She protected her kids. She did what she was supposed to do.”

Chapman remarked that one of his deputies, impressed with the woman’s resolve, told the sheriff she had handled her first shooting better than he had.

“That mother’s instinct kicked in,” Chapman said. “You go after a mother’s kids and she’ll find herself capable of doing things she never thought she was capable of.”