Great vid Dale! :thumbsup: Definitely not a momentum car :D

Enjoyed the video. :popcorn2: Motor sounds were music to my ears. :thumbsup:

Nice and smooth buddy. :thumbsup:

Awesome dale

Looking good out there. Try and get yourself a pyrometer to check front tire temps to dial in front camber. Chalking the outsides of your tires is a good way to dial in air pressures.
Also, dont be afaid to experiment with brake pads. You'd be amazed how much time you can make up driving deeper into the corners.

Hey Dale, where in the NW are you? Portland here. We should make it a point to be at PIR, ORP, or RMP at the same event one of these weekends.

Great car, good to see you're out there driving it the way it was built to be driven :thumbsup:

Thanks guys... appreciate the kind words about the video :thankyou:. I had a great time at PIR and look forward to the next time! The car is a whole different animal now with the new engine... it was quite a rush for me to say the least. The engine is a screamer... pulls hard and picks up speed very quickly. I never got over 6K rpm in 4th gear... which is 125 mph. The peak power on this engine is 7K... at his point I can't imagine going up to 7K in 4th :headspin: I think I might need to do some more work on the chassis and suspension now (leafs need to go).

The most fun was coming around turn 12... entering the main straight up against the wall... shifting into 4th... listening to the engine wail, and then thinking how far can I go and still make the turn... that moment is gold. I felt like I was on the edge a couple of times coming into the chicane (most fun part of the track).

:lateral: :cheers:

Thanks for the tips... appreciate it :thumbsup: Do you have any recommendations for brake pads to try? Right now I have the Baer Track PBR 4-wheel disc brake set up with ceramic matrix pads.

Thanks Scott! I saw the You Tube video of your car out at PIR... looked good. I live just north of Vancouver Washington. I would be very interested to meet up at a track day event with you... let me know.

Greg... I tried several different options to try and find valve covers that would clear the T&D shaft rockers. The Katech valve covers are the only ones that even came close to fitting. I started out with their cast aluminum covers... ran them for a while... then bought a set of carbon fiber valve covers. Both sets had to be modified to clear the rockers.

I tried stock LS covers with 1/2 inch spacers, Holley aluminum valve covers, and neither would clear the rockers without major modifications. The Katech covers required the least amount of grinding to fit. I am using GM LS7 heads and the T&D shaft rockers with 1.8 ratio. Not sure exactly what your running.


Here is a shot of the T&D rockers... they come right up next to the rails... Nutter had to modify the rockers and heads slightly just to get some clearance.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/...ps60fc38bd.jpg


Here are some shots of how I modified the Carbon fiber covers for clearance

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/...psa91d11e0.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/...psd155711f.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/...ps221e8153.jpg

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/...ps49cdb203.jpg


When I mounted the modified valve covers I pushed them up towards the fuel rails a much as possible... the rubber o-ring seal will end up right on the edge of the lip on the head. It is a very tight fit for sure.. but I was able to modify the covers and make it work.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/...pse6844c7d.jpg


Hope that answered your question... it's always a pain for the engine builder when they have to do extra work to make things fit. You just don't have a lot of options to clear the T&D 1.8 rockers.

Tobin recommended Hawk HP Plus to me for street and track compromise. While I haven't had them on the track yet they work well on the street, they don't require preheating to stop at the first stop sign you come to, and they're pretty quite. As he warned they generate dust and will wear rotors........THEY GENERATE DUST! but visually the rotor wear doesn't appear extreme. Did I mention they generate dust? :D

What's the old saying...........drive hard into the braking zone until you see God then stand on the brakes!

Hard to say from watching the video or feeling the chassis coming into and under braking but it looked like you were off the throttle well before the 500 mark and coasting into the braking zone. Start challenging yourself and the car on a corner that has no penalties if you go in too deep. Pick a throttle off point and brakes on point and gradually shorten them up until you get on the edge of not apexing the corner properly. Then you can confidently apply those references to most braking marker zones. Off-chambers, elevation changes, bumps/seams, brake over-heating, greasy tires, etc. need to be compensated for.

Once you learn your braking points around the track(s) you should see lap times improve. Also create drive-out reference markers past the apex point to aim the car at while rolling into the throttle they can serve as a point where you should be able to deliver maximum throttle for available traction.

You appear to have one of the toughest skills mastered......smooth. Most really fast drivers are really smooth. How they become really consistent is through establishing and adhering to personal reference points on the track.
:thumbsup:

Awesome post Dale, that really helps me out. Thanks for posting so much detail. It's people like you that make this such a great site.

Dale - what do you have on top of your throttle body, a spacer?

Thanks Sieg... I really appreciate your comments about driving techniques. Up to this point I have been focusing on learning the proper lines on the track and hitting the apexes and not as much about lap times. I'm at the point now where I'm out there ripping around and feel totally comfortable and consistant. Now I need to work on braking later and getting on it harder out of the corners like you said.

Getting the camera was a good thing... it was nice to sit back on Saturday morning and watch the runs... I saw the same things you mentioned. I look forward to improving the skills, pushing it and getting sideways a bit more. :thumbsup:

Ron... The air filter spacer is made by "Allstar Performance" Summit # ALL26087. They make all different heights and they seal with an O-ring, nice part.

No problem Rick.. hope it works out, they are a nice cover.

:woot: :woot:

I was hoping my lens would come in early Friday instead of 4:15, seriously wanted to buzz up there and shoot some pics of you and listen to the intimidator! :thumbsup:

Sieg please.... before you buy another camera lens go out and buy a wide band A/F gauge for your Camaro, :poke:

I hear you - Exhaust from collectors to muffler first......need a bung for the o2 sensor and it would be wrong to weld one in to the existing cobbled up mess. :D

I used the Baer track system on my previous car, a '71 Camaro with modded LS3 and full-on Global West suspension. As I learned the track and accumulated seat time, I found that dedicated racing pads and high-temp racing fluid were a necessity for the Track system to be even marginally workable. There's just not a whole lot of pad and rotor there to handle the thermal load of repeatedly hauling down 3500+ lb from 130+ MPH. From experience, using street or hybrid pads, if you continue to push the braking zones to the limit as Sieg suggests you will eventually experience the thrill of full-on brake fade. Not recommended for the weak of heart. Or, come to think of it, for the normal of heart either.

After some experimentation, I eventually ended up using Carbotech race pads for the track, XP12 front compound and XP10 rear. Then I'd switch back to the Carbotech street pads for street use - the race pads squeak like the very devil. The Carbotech formulations use the same "deposit layer" for both street and race pads, meaning you don't have to have dedicated track rotors separately bedded. The only problem is, the C4 pads are not just small but also quite thin and thus wear out much faster than the bigger, thicker pads used by the more ambitious big brake packages. And race pads ain't cheap.

I think Sieg's recommendation of the Hawk HP plus is not a bad one for a learning track driver. Just be sensitive to when your pedal pressure seems unusually high, or your pedal height unusually low, and back off a bit for a lap or two. When that gets too annoying, time for the next step :)

Thanks Scott... appreciate the great info on the brake pads.

I went back and watched your video out at PIR and your times were in the 1 min 28 second range compared to my 1 min 34 second range... that is quite a spread. My goal now is to get below 1 min 30 sec.

I Just got an email from Cascade Sports Car Club and the next track day events at PIR are on Aug. 9th, and Sept. 6th. I am going to sign up early for the Aug 9th track day. Let me know if you are interested in that event or if you have something else in mind. Look forward to meeting you some time... thanks again for the brake set up info!

It would be great if there are any other Oregon Washington Lat G members that would want to hit PIR in August...

:lateral:

more track video and fox shock feedback
 

Here is one more video from the Track Day event last Friday. This one I shortened up from the last one. This is the 3rd session and I was picking up speed a bit and trying to go into turn 10 in 4th gear instead of third… I’m still letting off the gas to early and braking to early like Sieg mentioned. I really do appreciate Siegs feedback… that’s how a guy improves :thumbsup:

In this video I ended up running out of gas at full speed on the back straight right after passing a black Mustang… this happened on the last lap (5:18 in video) and I was able to coast back to the pits all the way to my parking spot! My fuel consumption at this event was 3 mpg. I went through nearly two tanks. Now I know for next time to always have a a minimum of half a tank before going out.

I do have a comment on the new Hotchkis Tuned Fox Shocks…. I am a big fan of Hotchkis stuff and have a bunch of their parts on my car. After running the new Fox shocks on the track I was not impressed. They worked great on the street and had a little better ride than the Bilsteins, but on the track they didn’t feel right to me. The front of the car would start bouncing at high speed on a couple of sections on the track…. You can see it in the video on the front and back straight. I didn’t care for the bouncing… my Bilsteins didn’t do this. I have 600 lb coils on the front of my car and I don’t think the shocks had enough dampening. The Fox shocks didn’t work for me… I am going back to the Bilsteins. This is my 2 cents after trying them… the Foxes are better on the street than the Bilsteins but not as good on the track… and unfortunately they are not adjustable.

Hate to say it but you need to buy shocks on par with that motor big boy. You're not exactly playing in the little league anymore.

It's only money. :bang:

The motor sounds sooo good, you'll be under 1:30's in know time once you acclimate to the "new" car. :thumbsup:

Thanks Sieg... now I have my next winter project lined up... get rid of the leaf springs and do some kind of 4 link set up and new shocks... time to do more research.

Hope to visit with you at PIR in August or September possibly...

Here are the track days currently on my calendar:

July 26-27 Oregon Raceway Park (Oregon Porsche Club of America)
August 5 PIR (marquecarsusa.com)
August 17 Ridge Motorsports Park (BMW club)

Might add something in September as well. The Porsche and BMW clubs run very good track days, and have a group of strong instructors who tend to cross over between clubs. A good instructor is very valuable, I've found, especially when learning tracks. And they're more than happy to have cars of other makes sign up - they need a significant number of attendees just to break even on those events.

The ORP events usually require you to be signed off at least as an intermediate, solo driver to be able to run. ORP is a pretty technical track, a total blast to drive but not easy to learn on.

The Marque Cars event is associated with the annual Rose City Corvette Club get together the weekend before, so most of the cars are obviously Vettes of various kinds. There's usually a low-key Autocross event the day before (Sunday).

The Marque Cars club, and the BMW club, have allowed passengers to ride along in the past. The other clubs don't.

When it comes to suspension mods on your car, I wouldn't be too quick to go multi-link rear. My previous 2nd gen used Global West CAT5 leaf springs in the rear, and I think it was pretty much as stable as my current car with DSE Quadralink. The front end on the first gens is where to focus first - the stock suspension geometry is an all-purpose disaster, with terrible camber curves and wildly unstable roll center. Longer spindles and/or lower upper control arm mounting are first order of business.

I think some of that bouncy feel you're attributing to shocks might just be the track itself. In particular, there's a section of the back straight at PIR, just past turn 9, that is bumpy and uneven. It makes any car feel spooky and unstable, and it's worse in cars like ours where you sit up higher. The turn 2-3 area is a bit that way as well.

Scott… thanks for the info on the tracks days... I’ve been wanting to try someplace other than PIR. I will research those tracks you metioned and then make plans to attend one of the events. I remember seeing your car outside the main entrance at SEMA a few years ago and it looked great! Look forward to meeting you, and seeing your car run :thumbsup:

I have done quite a bit of work on the front of my car so far, including... Global West tubular upper and lower A-arms, ½” taller than stock upper ball joints, Global West solid aluminum body bushings, Hotchkis 1-1/8” diameter front sway bar, 600 LB front coil springs, Bilstein tuned shocks, and recently changed to the Fox tuned shocks.

In the back I have Hotchkis drop multi-leaf springs, rear sway bar, sub-frame connectors and a DSE 4 pt roll bar. I do like the way the car handles with my current set up. The car handles good, feels stable, and is nicely balanced since I put in the lighter weight LS engine.

The only problem now is with the extra HP of the new engine the leaf springs seem to be wrapping a little under hard acceleration. I had to reposition the rear axle down 3 degrees to compensate. I will look into the CAT5 leafs you mentioned… maybe that is the solution. I just don't want to have any driveline issues out on the track.

I’m really not sure what to think of the Hotchkis Fox shocks… I have driven out at PIR lots of times with the Bilsteins and didn’t get near as much bounce. Both shocks feel stable but I just like the feel of the Bilsteins. What kind of shocks are you running?

Dale,

My '71 was originally set up with Hotchkis front and rear springs, Hotchkis/Bilstein shocks, Hotchkis front sway bar. It worked pretty well, but the rear dipped quite a bit on acceleration, and I didn't get the quite the drive off corners I thought I should. The CAT5 springs were quite a transformation - the rear dip was gone, the car really hooked off corners, and the overall feel was more stable and locked down. On the flip side, the ride was significantly harder on the street, but not enough that it bothered me.

The CAT5 springs use solid spherical bushings at the spring eyes, which eliminate twist along the long axis of the spring and thus in theory reduce leaf-to-leaf rubbing and binding. And they're very stiff in the front half of the spring, so the spring acts more like a control arm, doesn't wind up much at all, and has greater anti-squat effect. It all seemed to work very well for me, at least in that application.

As I said, on the 2nd gen I used the Bilsteins to begin with, and later switched to adjustable AFCOs sourced from Global West. The AFCOs were an improvement, but not huge. On my current '69, I use Detroit Speed double adjustables. I set them initially to the baseline that Kyle and Stacy gave me, and I've never had to move them more than one click from that baseline. That's one of the advantages of buying from a premium vendor like DSE - they've done almost all of the testing and experimentation I'd have to do myself.

Just my opinion, if it was me I'd go back to the Bilsteins for now, sort out what you want to do with the rear suspension, then work with a trusted vendor to see what shock package matches your combination and goals.

On the front end, the only thing I'd take a look at is more spindle height - even taller ball joints. The factory geometry is so far gone that even a 1/4 inch more can help a fair amount in stabilizing the roll center. One company that flies below the radar in terms of brand recognition, but really delivers on practical value is: http://www.scandc.com. I used adjustable upper control arms and taller ball joints from them on my '71, to great effect. Mark, the owner, knows what he's doing. I'd give him a ring and let him know your current setup and goals; at the least, you'll be more informed after the call than before :)

Edit:

Oh, when it comes to trying a new track, I'd start with RMP. Beautifully constructed track, both more challenging and more rewarding than PIR, but still wide and safe. Near Olympia - probably less than 2 hours from you - and still plenty of amenities relatively close by. Biggest problem with ORP is that it's in the middle of nowhere. Nearest hotel is 8 miles away and only 10 rooms, for instance, and there's gas at the track, which is good because nearest station with premium is 30+ miles away!

Dale - I have Global West rear leafs, not sure how they compare to the new generation of part numbers. I just emailed them my part number (31-245-1) and asked them to translate my spring rate to their new part #'s. They're relatively stiff, I'd guess they're L2's.

I've been considering the Cat5 bearing/bushing because of this marketing statement:
With my transverse muffler a panhard rod or Watts Link isn't an option.

You're more than welcome to drive my car if the springs end up being what you're considering.

Marc at SC&C is a wealth of knowledge, just be prepared to spend 45-60 minutes on the phone and have a notepad handy. :thumbsup:

You guys all realize that Fox manufactures the shocks for Ridetech right? You know, the "must have" shocks of many of today's pro touring cars?

I believe that JRI's can be upgraded from single to the multi-adjustable with what you already have... can you do that with the Fox/Ridetech/Hotchkis? Just thinking out loud...

The CAT-5 is also an awesome leaf spring setup and about as good as it gets for leafs. Some killer cars run that.

Yes, as an old off-roader I've known Fox for years. But Fox, like with any good shock manufacturer, you're not going to get their best valving with their "entry level" performance line. I've also ran Bilsteins on a car (in the 80's) and there's something magical about the way their valving ramps up as you push the vehicle harder.

The KTM 300 Dale just picked up has exceptional suspension and I'm anticipating he'll expect similar performance from the shocks on his Camaro now that he's taken it to another level with a killer motor and trans combo he's exploited the chassis' weaknesses. IMO - He's ready for serious 3 way valving and another brake upgrade won't be too far off. In no way am I knocking Ridetech/Hotchkis/Fox as their 3-way products appear to perform well as do a few others. It's big money, but I've never regretted an investment in top-notch shocks.

You can make up for a weak motor with good brakes and suspension............with my limited experience it doesn't work the other way around. :headspin:

Good to know regarding the GW Cat5's - Thanks :thumbsup:

Mary Pozzi seemed to do just fine with leaf springs...



Just sayin'



:secret:

Love this build, keep up the great work. We are looking at doing a dry sump set up and also mounting the tank in the trunk. Question for you, how do you fill the tank? It looks like the lid sits under the package tray panel and kinda hard to get at.

Thank you Al!

You are right… there is no easy access to the large cap on top of the tank. The purpose for that large cap really is to be able to get inside the tank to clean it out. Since I was tight on space on top… I added a bung on the side of the tank that is at the oil fill level. If you look at the first picture you can see the brass plug with the square head on the side of the tank.

To fill the dry sump system for an oil change I remove the brass plug, and use a funnel to fill the tank until the oil runs out the hole. That is the level the tank is designed to run at. When I add 14 quarts of oil into the system (including the oil in the oil filter and lines) for a fresh oil change... the oil just starts to come out the hole. The tank is designed to run at that level. There is a baffle inside the tank right above the bung. The extra volume left over in the tank is to allow for oil level fluctuations as the rpm of the engine changes.

On the bottom of the tank there is another bung with a removable plug for draining the tank. I drilled a hole in the floor of the trunk for access to the drain plug. The oil tank set up in the trunk works good… If I ever need to clean the tank out I can un-bolt the tank and remove it.

Also… the reason I mounted the tank up high in the trunk is so the oil will gravity feed into the oil line that feeds the pressure section on the pump. I wanted to make sure the pump always had a head of oil.

:lateral:

Thanks Dale! We have 17 inch from the floor of the trunk to the top of the package tray. The tanks is 14 1/4 so we don't have a lot of room to mount it higher. The floor of the trunk is 21" off the ground and I'm guesstimating the pump will sit about 16" off the ground giving us about a 5" difference. Do you think that will be enough of a difference?

We are planning on using a Bailey pan and pump which will also allow us to drop the engine an inch closer the ground.

Thanks for the help!

Al... I just went out and measured mine. The floor of my trunk is 17.5" off the ground, and the bottom of my oil tank is 19.5" off the ground. The inlet for the pressure section of my oil pump is at 15.5" off the ground. So my tank is 4" above the pump... so you're even better at 5".

Glad to help out :thumbsup:

Scott... Thanks for all the great info! What you described with the rear end dipping on your 71 under acceleration is exactly what I am experiencing. Thanks for steering me to the Global West CAT-5 leafs. I called them today and placed an order for a set with 2" drop. They said the CAT-5's are a good set up for the track and will support HP levels of 600 to 700. I think this is a good next step for the suspension on my car. Also, I have done enough work on the car in the past year... and just want to enjoy it for a while now. Changing leafs will be a breeze compared to changing to a 4-link set up. Thanks for offering some great insight and solutions :thumbsup:

Thanks for the great info Sieg! Appreciate the offer to drive your car. I'm committed now... I'm not to much worried if the ride is a little stiff.

Thanks Dave! appreciate the feedback on the CAT-5 leafs... can't wait to try them out.

Sieg... I totally agree with you on this. Fox does make great stuff, but the shocks I got are "entry level", and designed to work under a wide range of applications and uses... I am very attuned to the handling on my car now after several years of tweaking, and I know they are just not quite what I was looking for... but that doesn't mean they won't be great for other applications. I am probably at that point where I need some adjustibility in a shock like you said.

I went back and read Carl C's post about the Hotchkis tuned Fox shocks and he said they worked great after some fine tuning by the guys from Fox. He made a comment that after the tuning, the shocks were "much more composed" so maybe he was also experiencing some bounce in stock form.

That works for me, new leafs on the way! ... I'm sure Mary could do quite well with just about any set up though, Lol

:lateral:

No doubt those shock are a big improvement over the average shocks you'll find on most cars. Based on your input Carl probably had them ramp up the compression and rebound valving. You're going to want a shock on your car that has the adjustability of your KTM. With your natural attention to detail you'll end up with a menu of high/low speed compression and rebound settings for your favorite tracks, commuting, and sport driving. The only time you'll need to send shocks away is for routine servicing.

Looking forward to you input on the Cat5 system. Hopefully they improve lateral movement as advertised. Fair warning - the spring change in my car turned it into a drifter with the previous tires, the 200TW NT05's neutralized the over-steer tendency........with my baby motor. :thumbsup:

Global West said I should get the parts sometime next week... so once I get the springs in I will report back. Looking at the pictures they look very thick, 5 leafs instead of 3... I don't think I'll get any spring wrap with these. Not sure what to expect for the ride... but I like it on the firmer side.

Did you go with the 2" drop with the reverse eye, or the 1-1/4" drop with the standard eye? I went with the 2"... that's about what I have now.

Good post. :thumbsup:

Yeah. And then she went in and put in a 3 link..... hmmmm. :headspin:

Yeah if only all of us couldn't get access to a test and tune day at the track where the Fox techs are there making all of the on-the-fly adjustments and changing out parts. That's some serious support right there.

IIRCC - They didn't have the reverse eye when I purchased mine, and advertised 1.5-2" lower. I definitely recall being disappointed with how high the car was in the rear when I put it on the ground so it now has 1" spacers and 4* shims which put it close.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-W...-WkMLDSJ-M.jpg

I imagine your ride will be quite a bit firmer if you were running stock springs like I was. With the stock spring the rear spoiler would excessively squat the rear above 100 mph creating a very light front end. That's not an issue with the GW springs.

LOL. But the truth is, whatever we want to tell ourselves, 99% of us will never be able to drive close to level of Mary Pozzi. For the rest of us who just aspire to have fun and continually improve, we can go very far without going to the trouble and expense of radical re-engineering.

I was out at ORP a few years back with the Porsche club in my '71, stock subframe with scanc.com front suspension mods, the aforementioned GW leaf springs, AFCO shocks, Michelin PS Cup tires. My instructor, who was both an excellent driver and long time instructor, was stunned at how well my car worked on that very technical track. It was easily the fastest car in the intermediate class, which was populated mainly with late model 911s, Caymans, and Lotuses. Other drivers kept coming up between sessions, examining the car, asking about mods, etc. I'd have them crawl under the back end to see the big ugly solid axle controlled by nothing but a pair of huge old leaf springs, and they'd just shake their heads in wonder.

Thanks Sieg. Now Global West offers the standard eye which is 1-1/4" lower stance, and the reverse eye which is 2" lower stance on the CAT-5 leafs. Looks Like the reverse eye should work good and still leave some room for shims to adjust the axle angle.. Thanks for the pics :thumbsup:

Carl's probably helping out with product development with his feedback so that cool. Good for Fox for being there.

That's a great story... That is part of the fun with this hobby, to take an old classic, fix it up and hang with all the new stuff... good feeling.

Sounds like the CAT-5 leafs are a great set up.. can't wait to get them on the car and try it out.