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http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/d...ages/dsdfj.gif lol |
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video not great quality but this thing was rad
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I can't believe the Corvette made the pass on on you while you were passing another car. He should have waited.... hopefully you saw him coming. |
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I get nervous when I go extra fast in someone else's car...plus Mom always insists riding shotgun since it's her car. :rules: lol |
Hey Everyone,
Sorry for not posting sooner. I was rockin' on some projects. :rockin: I have lots to cover from the Thunderhill weekend ... 1st ... Greg thanks for hiring me to come out. You said it would be fun & man was it. You hang with a great group of people. Your cooking & hospitality was much appreciated. 2nd ... Sieg & Dave "Cheeseball" Gordon ... it was good to see you both again & hang out. Fun times. 3rd ... Mike & Mike ... it was good to meet you in person. It's funny how acquaintances are born online but friendships forged when you're hanging out. 4th ... Charley ... man ... you shoulda warned me about Greg. LOL 5th ... Gaetano ... good to meet you in person. I wish they would have let you run so we could dial in those trick rear shocks. But I'm glad you made the trip anyway to hang out. If I missed anyone, I apologize. Now onto some info I should share ... A. Greg Weld didn't hire me to get faster. That was never our focus. Greg wanted to get a better handle on the Hoosier R6 tires ... optimum pressures for hot & cold tracks ... taking temp readings ... understanding what the temps mean, etc. He had “ono moment” at Laguna Seca and wanted to prevent that in the future. Greg told me a dozen times before & during the track days, "I do this for fun." So my focus was on making it more fun for him on track. (Hard to make it more fun in the pits. Greg & the gang already have that covered. But I did get a few funnies in.) :) What I mean by fun on track is ... • Having a track car that is predictable to drive, consistent and comfortable at 8/10, 9/10 or 10/10. • Having a track car that doesn't handle funny nor doing anything evil or unpredictable. • And lastly ... and this is key ... having a track car that you have confidence in that's not constantly on the edge. On Saturday: After Session #1: I checked the tires’ hot pressures (to know growth rate) took inner, middle & outer temps ( to understand what the tire was doing) and checked the durometer on each tire. Greg mentioned the car was rolling over on the right rear on left hand corners (which Thunderhill has most of for you guys that haven’t been there.) Greg told me the car was doing this the last time he had it at the track too … but not before that. Driving a car that handles this way can be a little unsettling on slower tracks. On faster tracks it can pucker you up … if you know what I mean. It would be easy to think the cause was mechanical, but understanding what the tires are telling us is can prevent us from going on a wild goose chase. The primary reason the car was rolling more over on the right rear tire … was the right front tire was not gripping “as well”. It was harder than the other 3 tires. A quick refresher: Grip (traction) causes the car to have body roll or roll angle. No grip … no roll angle. So the RR tire was gripping fine & the RF not so much. This led to more roll angle in the rear & less in the front. If we had a single used, good tire we could have put on the RF, that would have fixed it. We didn’t, but Greg had 4 new tires mounted on wheels, so he swapped them on. I learned a little about the run pressures from session #1 & adjusted the “go out” pressure a bit for session #2. We sat down (Sieg, Greg & I) and I shared driving tips to keep the tires “Happy” … for increased grip on all 4 tires … and outlined what I think of as timing the driver actions of braking, turning, throttle, etc. After Session #2: I checked the tires’ hot pressures , temps & durometer plus brake rotor temps. The tire pressure growth & temps looked better. The durometer showed the new tires were all within 1 point & basically the same as the 3 good tires Greg took off. The brake temps showed the car’s brake bias was off. Greg was excited his “car was back” and the handling restored to normal. He said the rear tires were hoppy on corner entry under hard braking, so I adjusted the brake proportioning valve … and made a small pressure change. I better clarify that … Greg sets his tire pressures … I just review the numbers and share my suggestions. Greg was laughing his butt off about the car needing .5 of a pound more in the in the front tires. LOL Good times. After Session #3: I checked the tires’ hot pressures , temps & durometer plus brake rotor temps. The tire pressure growth & temps looked close, but not perfect yet. The brake rotor temps told me the bias was much better but not optimum. Greg said the hop in the rear brakes was gone, handling was great and he had confidence in driving her. The brake bias adjuster was out of adjustment, so we understood that was all we could get until we made some mechanical changes. I called for another .5 tire pressure change … this time for the rear tires … and Greg was dying laughing. After Session #4: Of course, as always, I checked the tires’ hot pressures , temps & durometer plus brake rotor temps. Tires were perfect … which means they were providing the optimum grip they were capable of. Brake bias was the same … Ok. We called it day … a good day … and most of us proceeded to have several adult beverages (not Greg) and an awesome dinner the Shelby club provided at the track. IIRC Greg’s times for the day were: Session #1: 2:23 best Session #2: 2:16 best Session #3: 2:15 best Session #4: 2:13 best But we never once focused on going faster. We never discussed going faster or driving harder. My focus was learning & optimizing the tires … and finding and fixing issues that were there. My goal was to make the car more fun to drive. To clarify, I didn’t cut 10 seconds off Greg’s times Saturday. I’ll bet Greg would have got the Mustang running around 2:18’s with no changes. maybe even faster. Only Greg can know. By correcting a few things on the car, it made it easier to drive faster. I think the majority of Saturday’s gains were from car improvements and some from Driving improvement. We did not do much on the car relatively speaking. We didn’t touch shock valving, springs, heights, sway bars, track bars, roll centers, front end geometry, etc, etc. That wasn’t Greg’s goal. He just wanted the car to be predictable & more fun to drive. On Sunday: I called for “go out” pressures to make the cold tires come up to speed quicker. Sieg, Greg & I sat down & I shared ways to program the mind to increase critical information coming into it. I reminded them of a key thing to do before each session. We made no changes to the car on Sunday. All gains on Sunday were driver. Session #1: 2:13 Session #2: 2.08 Summary: We achieved Greg's goals. He learned his tire info & knows how to optimize them everytime, got his car handling & braking better & learned a few driver tricks. The 10 second quicker lap times were just icing on the cake. Someone mentioned 12 seconds, but I think working together, Greg & I cut about 10 seconds off his lap times … 2:18 to 2:08 … over the whole weekend. Some from car improvement & some from driver coaching. For reference, I was timing several cars every session (at the track I live with a small 4-car stop watch). I have an old habit of always timing cars … because it teaches me stuff. I time laps for many reasons. In this case, I needed to know if the track was changing significantly to affect car performance and if so … how much? So I timed 3 veterans every session. The mean C6 Vette (fastest car there I “think”) ran 2:00’s almost every lap. The “good” Cup car ran 2:02’s occasionally 2:03’s all weekend. Another fast Mustang ran 2:09’s & 2:10’s every session. So the track didn’t change much. Again, Greg & I never focused on going faster. We never discussed going faster or driving harder. I just helped Greg & Sieg see, hear & feel things more clearly in the cockpit. The 5 seconds Greg shaved off his lap times on Sunday was all driver. Greg had confidence in his car and increased his track awareness which allows you to get faster … comfortably. Greg … Man … thanks for having me out. It was super fun. I’m glad you had fun … and you’re happy with the result. |
Ron thanx again for all you do for this forum and us. Your wisdom and experience is great fun to learn from. I enjoyed meeting you and spending some time with you this weekend. It was one of my favorite weekends of my life, granted it was my first track outing and a memorable one, one i will always have with me. Track days will come and go, and so will friends, but memories we will have forever.:thankyou:
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Ron -- Great compilation of the weekend! Thank goodness you have a mind like a steel trap. I can't remember anything except the fun stuff.
I will say that having Ron Sutton help with the two cars was the best money I've ever spent on a car -- and was also far cheaper than all the parts that I'd have bought to shave that time off --- and the car wouldn't have been better with more parts thrown at it. I've said this - in a "nice way" <for me> many times -- and it always gets discounted as it's coming from the old fat guy.... but investing in drivers schools -- seat time -- and professional services such as what Ron offers (not your jackass buddy that THINKS he knows something) --- will do way more for you and your car than all the parts you think you need 'cause if all the parts aren't functioning the way they should be - ya got nothing. If you're serious about your stuff... invest in some help like what Ron offers. It's the best money you've ever spent. RON: What about a 1/4 click on the left front and minus 1/2 click at the rear... Guess we'll work on all that the next session 'cause I ain't done with you yet! :>) |
De-virginizing
So, in a nutshell, I can barely remember driving my car on Saturday. I managed to meet Sieg and Ron, but somehow missed Greg. My timing sucked for pretty much everything, as it seemed like if I was not on the track, I was literally running to the "classroom," as I was in school. The "classroom" sucked, but it was necessary for a few key pointers; mostly, it sucked, and it sucked up my ability to truly enjoy the day, the other cars, or the social elements of the environment. Oh well...
My main problem was sleep deprivation; I did my 120-or-so mile drive down on Saturday morning on about four hours of sleep (no problem--I drove a truck for a living for many years). I had a really cool instructor in the car (Joe Praxel?)--the guy in the classroom not so much. The in-car instructor took me out for one of his red group sessions in his California Special and managed to do a disco-spin going over that little hill; that was some good added value. My car held up well for three sessions; I thought my basic street tires would be disinspiring, but they were surprisingly not. The suspension and steering felt great; my only confidence issue was my brakes, which still worked fine. I'm just not used to track-like braking requirements (no, no drums are on my car). Still, I actually remember very little of the driving, although the Blue Milk guys took some great feelthy peekchurs that I'll be paying money for, when I get another minute... I finally managed to ride solo in my third session, and things went okay. That said, it's funny how 340 horsepower quickly feels like a shopping cart on a track. After the session, I heard some frying noises that turned out to be a bunch of water on the top of my motor, so I cut my losses and hit the road. I was so freaking sleepy that all I wanted to do was hit the Starbucks in Willows and go home to bed. I got black flagged on my first lap, thanks to my cool instructor encouraging me to pass in a turn. Who was I to disagree? I'm pretty sure that the only guy who passed me in my flaming-fast sessions was Glassman--the guy in the blue Camaro, I think... |
Okay --- everyone loves "the videos". LOL So here's the only one I took.
You'll see another yellow Mustang show up --- that's Charley --- I can't keep up with him --- and then I THOUGHT our other buddy Pete was behind me (his is black with gold stripes) so slowed to let him go around - but it wasn't Pete it was a dark blue car with gold stripes.... Then I saw Chet (white with blue stripes) so I wanted to run with him, so slowed to let him catch up and go around so I could run with him. This was the first time in all our events that I've actually been anywhere near these guys and wanted to be able to run as a pack... It's fun to dice with your buddies. The Turquoise Panoz is fast --- Since we've all run together before -- you get to know who's who and if I see it in my mirrors -- I'm lifting off the gas and pointing him by. You learn to not try to race the faster guy behind you via your mirror... you can learn A LOT more by following their line rather than having them 2 feet off your ass and you over driving your car in an effort to gap them. After a few spins or "oh no moments" you grow up and start parking your ego in the trailer when the starter spins over. We're there to have FUN not get a $100K check --- or a $100K WRECK. Sutton's post was spot on. I'm not out there to "race". I'm out there just having a great time. I love to chase people. I would never be a good racer because I have no desire to LEAD. I love to see if I can catch people -- try a different line -- act like we're racing and see if I could take 'em on the inside etc. Like they say - To each his own. The back section of the track, beginning with T6 to T9 is very high speed. I came in and got scolded by Charley for slowing down too much in T8.... he's right --- I tend to just cruise back there... Part of the increase in my lap times was him chiding me to pick up the pace in that section, which I did. I could go A LOT faster back there.... I like corners and straights are boring... so I tend to just "get thru them" rather than attack the straights (this section is really more straights with a couple "kinks" tossed in). |
GW's first session in the "new & improved" 2-Eleven. I didn't edit for educational purposes on the hot-pit swap.
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Can you tell the mirrors were adjusted for SIEG?? I couldn't see if there was traffic and had to keep looking I couldn't just check with my eyes. LOL
This car is so f'n easy to drive now it's sick! Next sessions will add a center mirror -- and Hoosier A6's! And my new Stilo helmet is equipped with built in communications -- as such it has ear "muffs" -- I couldn't hear the RPM's which is very disconcerting as this is a sense that you need on the track. I can either remove them or use my other helmet in this car. It's not a problem hearing the Mustang! |
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Mike it was great to meet you and talk about stuff. I look forward to seeing you at future events. :cheers: |
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We worked well together & had a lot of fun, so I'm in. Let's stay focused on making the car better, safer & more fun. The lap times will take care of themselves. I think 2 things would help ... #1 Let's get that Mustang braking better so there's more stopping power & less praying on corner entry. #2 Going fast in a 3000# 600 hp beast .... on 245 size tires ... is a manhood test. So let's increase the grip & stability. |
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I got to know the Z06 driver in the pits. He runs a good line and has good car control so I trusted him and he obviously trusted me. I didn't know he was there but had no problem with it, also trusted the M3 driver to my right as we'd diced it out a few times already. I was wondering what cop in the tower might be thinking as we went by 3 abreast though. :lol: |
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Should I call or we can do brakes and shocks etc via email????? I don't think that people with "PT" cars ----- watching these videos --- have any idea what driving these old beasts on those skinny tires is truly like. They watch the Corvettes with their HUGE tires -- HUGE brakes - Low coefficient of drag, fly by us and think how slow we are and why don't we just blow them up. HAHAHAHAHA OMG if they even had a f'n clue... I've said this in the past but I just don't think people understand. Two piston small rotors - single piston small rotor -- skinny tires -- lots of HP..... you discover that going into a corner and getting some speed scrubbed off is easier to say than do. Where you really notice the BRAKING prowess -- is watching the deep braking of the LOTUS as compared to other cars. It's not the HP there that makes it fast -- it's the BRAKING. I have no desire to go into the dirt at T1 -- or T14.... LOL |
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Ron --- When you have a chance -- You are welcome to tear me a new you know what with comments on my driving... etc (if you've watched the videos). Others may learn from my mistakes and poor judgement. And to me - that's what it's all about. Charley has already destroyed any ego I had.
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Can Charlie and me play!? |
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Just NO! |
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NO! They allow trucks but not trucks with automatics. In fact, I think that's banned EVERYWHERE |
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We'd let that guy run with us....
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Jer Dawg.
You're fired. :poke: |
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I'm just glad Ron hasn't shared publically his comments on my driving on the autocross course last weekend. :twak: I sent him the videos and my thoughts on what was going on and he immediately showed me some things that I was doing wrong...and how correcting them would make the car handle better and be faster on the clock. I can't wait for my next event now just to try to put his suggestions into action. He is an invaluable resource for this sort of thing. We are so fortunate just to have him hanging around to show us the ropes. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-G...-04-14_126.JPG |
First session Sunday was entertaining, casual warm up lap, the first green flag lap had all the enthusiasm of a cool down lap, then heading into T1 on lap 3 the Cayman ahead of the Z06 I was following just about lost it on the exit for some added excitement, then the instructor in the white Mustang (ffffast) made an appearance, then before you know it's time to come in. :(
What I really enjoyed was the fact that the Cayman had nothing on the 2-Eleven off the corners and down the straight, I was feathering throttle following it, not the case with the Z06 though. Don't discount those little 1.8 liters! |
The Cayman needs to drop back down a group (yellow) and go back to driving school.... he's so far off the apex cones that it's obvious he has ZERO idea what they're telling him!
For the newbs (myself included)... the orange cone on the corners is an APEX marker... you basically want to try to touch it if you can in EVERY corner if you have the line to yourself (which we always do because we are not allowed to be 2 wide in a corner)... and HITTING the apex will have you EXIT properly. Take the apex WIDE and you run out of track on the exit. That's what happened to the Cayman in T1... Go back and see that he's in the middle of the track at the apex -- then he's way wide on exit -- and sees the edge of the track coming up to bite his ass.... and he tries to dial the car back in -- and has the ass end trying to come around on him. Rookie mistake.... but more importantly -- he never once was anywhere near the apex in any corner. If you watch -- there is an APEX marker --- and on EXIT there is an EXIT marker.... You want to clip the apex and let the car come out to the exit cone ---- then it's "punch it! I know the road!" LOL |
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I've never had a better weekend of driving than I just had with him in my pit! There is nothing better than having a car that you trust and that acts the exact same way every time you go out. That is what I was having trouble with... because I was all over the map on tire pressures -- because I didn't know when I should be checking them and setting them etc. NOW I KNOW! I learned so much - which made my driving better - which made the weekend more FUN.... That was my goal. It was so good (the weekend) and we learned so much - that I have now engaged Ron to help me again at Sonoma Raceway August 2nd and 3rd. Not sure what we'll work on -- but it will be whatever it will be -- THE DRIVER (nut behind the wheel) is what needs the most work as far as I'm concerned.... but his efforts just getting simple things dialed in on the car was just WOW! Who knew! The one weekend forever changed how the car drives.... and that's why I say it's the best money I ever spent on a car. What I learned in one weekend will help with every car I ever drive on a track. It's all transferable information. |
I just finished 29th out of 109 drivers in an SCCA Solo event with a ton of very experienced drivers in autocross specific type cars with a car not designed for autocross at all, that is on street tires, with a driver that doesn't know what he is doing...all because the car runs a setup Ron Sutton designed for a car he has never seen in person.
'nuff said... :king: I'm pretty familiar with the feeling you are talking about Greg...and it's awesome! |
I certainly cannot thank Ron enough. What he brought to the forefront were invaluable tools and thought processes for future events.
No more pulling into the pit parking the car and BSing with the nearest ear. The new standard operating procedure when exiting the track is get to the pit quickly dismount grab the infrared thermometer, tire pyrometer, and pressure gauge and get to work logging data. At future events I'll further micromanage every detail and movement I make. What I was really tried to improve on over the 2 days was braking/downshifting timing and modulation, turn-in points, apex and exit points, along with steering inputs and throttle application. When done right it should be like listening well orchestrated symphony........IMO. Ron - Thanks for enhancing "the experience." As Greg previously mentioned - feel free to point out my shortcomings in the video. I have no problem being an example for a class. |
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Let us know when you find that pedal on the right.... LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA The video with the Vette and the Cayman.... I thought you three were driving to the Mall on a Sunday morning. I was tense by the time I got done watching that thing! I was like "Dude! <the Cayman> Hit the f'n apex -- and PUNCH IT I KNOW THE ROAD". Then I fell asleep. |
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.............I did not have to answer your question "which corner did you run out of talent in?" :action-smiley-027: |
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Hi Sieg, It's hard to point out shortcomings, because your goal was to get some track time, have fun & not tear up Greg's toy. You achieved that very well. The main issue with driving that speedy little car on track is so many other cars were slower. As they bunch up in front of you ... a guy has to ask himself is the risk of passing them all versus the gain ... when your goals are to simply get some track time, have fun & not tear up Greg's toy. If you were racing, or running alone for fast time, the tips I would offer are: a. Use ALL the track ... plus 2" b. Work on carrying more corner entry speed by carrying full throttle farther & brake later into the corner ... 2' at a time ... until the rear end gets a tick free under braking, then back up this point until you regain good entry grip. c. Next, work on carrying more mid-corner speed by braking less ... softer & shorter ... a little less each time ... until the rear end gets a tick free during the roll through zone (or pushes, depending on the set-up) then increase the braking distance until you regain good grip through the roll through zone. * When deciding to brake harder versus longer to bring the roll through zone speed back down to achieve grip ... it is typically better to brake longer & softer as compared to harder & shorter. Braking harder has a tendency to upset the car more & "surprise" the tires. Plus braking soft longer keeps the nose planted longer for front tire grip. d. Turn in later on most corners. Apex later. e. On tight corners ... test & compare running a different line where you keep the car out wide longer & turn in later ... and turn in harder (at a higher degree) ... setting up your corner exit to be lower & straighter. Depending on the degree, I call this a 70/30 strategy (or if done to a lesser degree a 60/40 strategy). The goal is do 70% of the turning in the first half of the corner & only 30% of the turning on exit. This better matches the goals of matching slowing the car with more turning on entry & allowing faster throttle roll on due to the higher rear tire grip of the straighter exit line. Many refer to this as simply a late apex style, but that's only partially accurate, as we can run a late apex and still not have the car turned 70% by mid way. In typical high powered cars, this 70/30 strategy is "usually" the faster way around tight radius corners. * But ... in some super low powered, light, good handling cars ... sometimes the fastest way is to run the biggest radius possible through tight corners ... to keep the rolling speed & exit speed as high as possible. We won a lot Formula Ford races there at T-Hill with this strategy. These cars only weigh 900# & have 110hp. In the F2000 cars, with more power & down force, this wasn't necessary. The Lotus is part way between that and typical track car. So I'd try both ways with corner segment timers to know for sure. :cheers: |
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