Whoa :wow: :wow:



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Bad question?
Kevin

Hi Kevin ...

I am as interested as you to hear some of the shop guys chime in. I think being Sunday, they all took a day off from the thread. I have an opinion, based on my experience, but it may not match up with other builders.

IMHO ... there are a small percentage of bad customers & a larger percentage of good customers ... but just because they're a good customer doesn't mean you two (shop & customer) will fit well together.

I think the list of things that might make someone a bad customer for the shop is pretty obvious:
A. Can't afford what needs to be done
B. Unrealistic of what they should pay for what they get
C. Doesn't pay on time
D. Changes scope of project often
E. Not clear on what they want
F. Clear on what they want, but unclear in communicating it

I think the list that makes good customers not a good fit for the shop or vice versa is a little more cloudy for the customer & shop owner:
1. Style of build wanted differs from what shop is really good at
2. Level of build ($$$) wanted differs from what shop offers
3. Timeline wanted/needed by customer differs from what shop wants/needs
4. Involvement level desired by customer differs from what shop owner wants

I recently had a prospective customer that REALLY wanted a Street-Warrior from me. But the more we talked, the more I got clear he wanted a lot of personal involvement in the build and what I consider a "full custom" Pro-Touring style build where every detail is discussed with & decided on by the customer. I don't build full custom Pro-Touring cars. I consider my Street Warrior cars to be "semi-custom" race cars with street amenities ... where the client picks body style, colors, powertain options, interior & exterior options ... and we build it. Frankly if the customer is picking the parts, it may not perform as well. And if we have to stop & discuss all the little details like rivet color, A/C vents, switch style, etc ... we can't build & deliver it in 12 months, like we guarantee.

I am positive he will be a GREAT customer for a shop that builds full custom Pro-Touring cars. But he & I would have been frustrated with each other, because I don't do ... couldn't do ... what he really wanted.

I think where a lot of shops get in trouble ... and where customers get in pickles with shops ... is they didn't really figure out if they were a good fit for each other. Those situations usually end bad.

Just my 2¢


:cheers:

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I try to see if the customers expectations can line up with their reality. It amazes me how many people want their car to be the best of the best and really have no concept of just the parts cost of what they want. Usually what they expect to invest in the entire project is way less then the parts total.

Dealing with the customer is the biggest and most important element. Employees are a close 2nd. Customers provide the work, Communication Education and Efficiency provide the profit.

Like Ron said, not every customer is a fit for every builder. You need to find a builder you like and you feels understands you and you feel they want what you want. After all it is you car. Every person thinks differently and experiences each situation from their perspective. And I think it goes the same way with a customer. You have to pick some one you think you can make happy. I think that same 45/45/10 percent has to also work out with customers.

Something to chew on... and this is a hypothetical example but not too far from reality.... A customer comes in and has completely reasonable expectations, a good starting point, say a running driving rust free car as an example....

Spends North of 200K building a PT car with mostly off the shelf (insert vendor of choice here AME, TCI DSE) parts..... and A+ paint job..... A+ interior... ect...

What's that car worth..? 100K..... why would anyone do that? In this thread I see several shop owners basically saying I need customers with either pretty clear expectations and deep pockets.. or unclear expectations and bottomless pockets....

I am looking to solve the equation where a customer has reasonable expectations timeline and budget... Yet, can't seem to find a shop that won't either not deliver... deliver late, deliver poor quality or try to put out a lien on a build ballooned into 3X the budget ...

The way I am hoping to get to that place is to help builders become better at business process..

I would say that person does not exist. The reason being is that there are a ton of shops that deliver on time and with great quality. If said person cannot find that shop there is some reason why they have not been able to find that shop. They exist all over the country and may not be in your area. They are not the cheapest and the may not be able to put some one at the front of the line waiting list to meet their time line due to a waiting list. If the shop does quality work they were probably busy long before you called and have prior obligations to deal with. When it's your turn they will give you the same treatment they give all their other customers if you treat them the way most of their customers treat them.

A complete build does not get to 3x over budget over night. A small job like rust repair or some kind of small task can quickly get to 3 times the budgeted amount as it might have been thought the task could be handled in 1 day and it took 3. But if a guy expects to spend 200k and there is final bill of 600k, that does not happen either. There is no shop that sends the owner only one final bill at the end. It gets to that point one bill at a time, We bill our customers every 2 weeks. And there is no possible way to build even a 200k car in 2 weeks. For a car to go that far over budget 1 of few things has to happen.

1. The end result of the car is not what the customer wanted.
At some point the customer has to ask, Did I really order that triple decker spoiler and twin turbo LS engine when all I wanted was a nut an bolt resto.

2. The original budget was not feasible.
This can be the builders fault and should also be a customers fault. Lots of shops do the bait and switch. We pass on quite a few jobs due to the fact I'm brutally honest in the fact this stuff is expensive.

I had a guy not to long ago want to build a 100k Chevelle after seeing the black Fairway Chevelle. The Fairway Chevelle has a Billet Custom dash, Grip Equipped Wheels, Mini tubbed, triple adjustable shocks, huge brakes, the whole deal. I said I can probably build a 100k Chevelle, but it may not be the Chevelle you think 100k should get you as the Fairway Chevelle costs more then 100k to achieve that result.

I had another lady come in that wanted to build a nice driving 67 Camaro. She did not care about all the pro touring stuff, but she had to have this old Camaro she had had in high school. She really should have bought a done Camaro. But she had history with the car, so in a way she was committed. I told he 100k was a pretty reasonable number for what she wanted complete and turn key she could drive any where. Her and her husband thought I was out of my mind, so they went on down to road to another local shop that does the bait and switch and in the end the car probably now has 125 or more for a much less of a car that now another shop is fixing what the bait and switch shop lacked. The bait and switch shop totally over sold her on stuff she did not need and really ruined what she had.

3. OR Project Creep.
Project creep happens with every single project. Times change, Tastes change, technology changes.

We built a truck for an owner who wanted it to be a basic driver for his wife and 20 months later was a Goodguys Truck of the Year winner. That cost many times more then we thought in the beginning. That same customer went on to build many more cars with us and has many more for to do in the future. Heck right now we are building some crazy steel fire pit structure for his back yard.

I think to no ones fault, sometimes customers don't realize what they really want until its starts to take shape in front of them.

So not to over generalise... but in in Cali and a few other parts of the US like the south east there are lots of shops and that supply side of the equation adds to the customers "power" be elsewhere... as in the other 90% of the country.. its not the case.... Trust me the scenario were a customer is happy to spend what is required and expects a specific outcome is not just real.. its common.

A complete build does not get to 3x over budget over night.... Correct...
But far too many times shops don't bring that issue forward until its too late of the $$ is spent..

I guess, I do not follow. I get billed weekly or every two weeks depending on the amount of work done on my car. I only pay when I see pictures of the work and progress so I know exactly where my $ went. I do not see how the spending could get out of hand if you see a bill weekly or bi weekly. If you see that bill and it is higher than you expect for the amount of work done...pull the car out and maybe you are out a couple thousand bucks and not 100s of thousands. Seems pretty simple

For example.. you as a customer budgeted for 100k which was driven from an estimate which encompasses tasks 1-25. For simplicity sake lets assume the 100K is broken into equal tasks @ 4K per task and you put down 25%...... 25K.

You get an invoice after 1 month that indicates that 4 tasks are complete but all of the 25K is gone....... which based on the simple math.. your 100K project is now a 156K project... ~60% increase in cost with no increase in scope... :G-Dub:

Edit: the same thing can happen in smaller increments.. (weekly invoice) in fact I would suggest that when it does the variance from estimate will be larger in the end... you will just know about it sooner.... Death of a thousand cuts :-)

I follow what you are saying but there are safe guards built into the weekly or bi weekly bills. First, I never would put down any amount of money for labor! The shop should only bill you for labor DONE not labor that is going to be done so NO 25k is out of pocket. If a shop bills me $5,000 for a task that was suppose to cost $2,000...my car is gone and I am only out $3,000. If I keep paying these bills that are higher than agreed...that solely lies on me

So if a customer goes to Sizzler for dinner, is it fair for him to bitch and complain that his juicy New York Steak ( as advertized on tv ) does not taste the way the juicy steak did that he had at Tahoe Joes or Ruth Chris last week. The steak at Sizzler is 8.95 with sides and salad bar, the steak at Ruth Chris was 39 bucks without any sides or salad bar. But they both say they taste great on TV. Just because some one does it cheaper does not mean its the same result for the same item.

I guarantee the guy who eats at Ruth Chris would never even give Sizzler a second thought for a good steak even after seeing the commercial. And the guy who thinks the steak at Sizzler is amazing would be angry at the prices at Ruth Chris.

There is a market for every level of service. You don't expect a great burger of the year quality burger at Burger King do you? Even though it says you can have it your way on the sign.