I run a dry sump 427 Windsor TT in my '67 Mustang and I don't really do anything special other than cranking it with the ignition off for 5-10 seconds if I haven't started it in a while. I run the oil through a liquid based cooler tapped into the hot water feed and it warms up pretty quick even with a trunk mounted tank (note that it still also cools the oil, when I disconnected it at the track one day the oil ran 15 degrees hotter).

If you have any pretensions of building something special and think you will be tracking it, for me at least, the biggest drag on a Windsor is if you want an aluminum block. That's an immediate 2.5k+ option over a quality Dart iron block and a 4k+ option over an OEM LS block.

I've actually contemplated swapping to an LS because I really desire a very streetable engine and by the time you put any kind of cam in a Windsor I just dont' think it will ever be as tame (or as OEM) as a 550hp LS based stroker.

Here is what I think you should do (and what I can't do because it won't fit my chassis) -

Aluminator 5.0 with factory computer, and the new Hellion twin turbo kit that was on MM &FF cover last week. Top mounted blowers are just heat pumps in any kind of track work.

Twin turbo coyote - 7k rpm, 400rwhp right from the get go before you tune it or boost it, modern OEM factory based tune and runability, show car impact under the hood, aluminum block.

$7k engine, $2k computer, $2k FEAD and ancillaries, $7k turbo system

500->700 to the wheels at the twist of a knob and would drive like a factory 2012 Mustang around town.

The only negative is dry sumping would be a big hurdle as no "kits" exist right now, but you could piece something together with the Avaid serpentine belt A/C mounted pump.

I think I agree with Preston, the LS is the best dollar for dollar racing/street engine that money can buy right now. That said, with the car getting BOS body and paint etc. you are probably right about the car needing better.

Look at my car at Optima, the design judges pretty much snubbed it, taking 31st in design with alot of less modified cars doing way better. I know the lack of interior hurt me, but I think it was the Chevy in a Ford that turned them off. Hell it would probably turn me off if I was a judge. You would probably be best to stay with some brand loyalty, it will help you in the end in my opinion.

I really like the direction you're going Matt.... This build is perfectly suited to the peanut AutoX at GoodGuys shows you're so fond of running.... AND even better in L.A. traffic. Glad you finally made the right decision!!:unibrow:






http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...tos/file-1.jpg

Well said I couldn't agree more!

Yep, that's why I mentioned resale way back in the thread. For a brawler, it doesn't matter that much. In this instance, he doesn't have much choice.

Can I just put the whole thing under the hood? I might need some of your tools to pull of that swap.

Preston, I've seen some really impressive power figures coming out of twin turbo setups. I haven't ruled turbos out, but my lack of knowledge has kept me from actively pursuing that option. I know there are plenty of new oem cars running around with turbos, and I suppose have been for 30 years now, but I'm sort of clueless about them. I know the Mule has a pair, and I've ridden in Josh's twin turbo DC Camaro, but I've always wondered if they were simplistic and trouble free enough for me to run on a car without excessive amounts of tinkering and tuning.. Would I be able to run them and have a really linear power band for autocross so that I wouldn't have to downshift in short sections between corners?

Matt

Turbos, especially twins, on V8 engines do not have laggy power bands unless they are setup for huge power. If you keep the boost low as you would on an autox you should barely even notice a transition to on-boost especially with these modern turbos. I actually think setting up the piping is easier than managing a front drive belt system, and you can turn the power up and down electronically instead of being stuck with the current boost of the heat pump.
I run a local go kart track in m "big" car (its like lap after lap of autoxing) and the turbo power plant is completely controllable (in a manner of speaking).

That time frame won't work for us. We're ready to buy now.

Thanks for the help yesterday Matt.

I was looking to voting in your online poll late last night when I got home from the show. I think with your larger then life almost Renner persona your beginning to take on, you need to put your whole life up for POLL on Lat-g.

I really think Renner did not allow this site to control his life enough and hence his fall from super stardom. Your door gaps are better, your skin is darker and I bet you have more hair. Plus that Bif the surfer dude look he has is not working these days like it used to.

Just sayin

:lol:

Anytime the Rajah opines on Dub Renner in a totally unrelated thread...it's gonna be good. :D

Was the Doctor Renner, AKA: Big Wanda, "fall" like a tree falling in an empty forest? If nobody was around to hear it - did it make any noise?

That Gap Spray just didn't really take off and sell like he thought it would... Or did the Moonshine have a lasting detrimental affect?

As someone who has driven Mikes Mustang both on the street and at the auto-x i would not want to have that motor in anything other than a pure auto-x/track car. The clutch is an on/off switch and yes you do have to heat the oil and water for 45-60 minutes,prime the oil pump with a air ratchet until you get oil pressure then reconnect the belt, etc, etc, etc.

My vote would be for either the crate motor with blower or a high revving 331 sbf.

My last comment on this side bar as Matt will not be doing a dry sump I bet, but Mike said it best when he said it takes a special kind of stupid crazy to love that kind of motor and drive it on the street. He and I have that in common. :thumbsup:

Well said.

You've earned your stripes. :P

You're out of your mind.:unibrow: There is a point where it takes the fun out of it for me and that is a long way across that line.

Just put a supercharged Coyote in it!! That way I can still beat you on the Auto-X with my N/A LS3 Camaro that weights 3800 lbs.. :D :unibrow: :lol:

Dry sump has nothing to do with the nonsense described above. Heating oil and priming the system are all because they set the motor up with super tight bearing clearances. This allows the race teams to run at high temps for extended periods of time with Low weight oil and low parasitic drag while still protecting the bearings from cavitation.

So your race motor with 0.0011-0.0015" clearance will run great but not if you don't warm the oil. If you aren't going to run it full tilt for 500 mi and can sacrifice a few hp run looser clearances.

Now back to Matt. Resale you are probably better with a Coyote. A Windsor will get it done and take all kinds of abuse.:thumbsup:

i agree, stroke a winsor with a light weight crank, aluminum flywheel, top off with a nasty looking injection system and be done with it matt. I think it would have to be stretched a bit more to fit a Coyote in between them flares.

I've been keeping my eyes open for a new power plant myself. Eventually, I'll learn to drive the 347 I've got now and will be looking to upgrade. The Coyote 5.0 is tempting with its OEM reliability, weight and power potential. Especially with the stroker 347/351 packages coming out. But Packaging is a HUGE hurdle for those of us not looking to completely start over with a new front clip. Why couldn't Ford keep the size down to something we could use. The LS is tempting but as has been stated already doesn't fit and everybody is doing it. A thought I have come up with but not researched is a short stroke LS. Build the 5.0 Ford should have. It may not stable, reliable, or cheap but would definitely be fun.

I remember hearing about the sleeved/stroked packages for the Coyote last year, but I haven't seen anything since. When I was doing the latest incarnation of my 454 LS engine, I asked Steve Dimerjian about the sleeved Coyote blocks, and he wasn't sure they had worked all of the issues out yet. I do think a stroked Coyote would be the best of both worlds. I would build one in a heart beat if I didn't think I would be a guinea pig for durability testing. N/A Coyote motors pull hard above 4000rpm and really sing between 5000-7500. Which for isn't what I want in a dual purpose car. Bigger cubes from a bigger stroke like in the 5.4 would really help with the torque. You to need to gear the Coyotes aggressively like DSE did on their test car, but then you lose some of the easy going highway street manners. The blower cars have a better power band, but when I drove one, the power came on so strong at about 3000rpm that it felt a little like an on off switch. I'm sure you could get around that with different cams, and slightly more aggressive gearing, but the point I'm trying to make is that right now is that the only smooth mod motor I've driven (4.6 3v, 5.0, 5.4) with a flat torque curve is the blown 5.4 and that is simply to big a motor to put in a little '65.

The problem I keep having in making a decision is whether I want the simplicity and flat torque curve of a 400 plus cube Windsor, or the technological benefits of a blown Coyote. Both would weigh about the same, with the Windsor being the better track motor, and the Coyote being the better street motor.

I forgot to include the link to the 351 info:

http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories/...er-351-coyote/

This one is at the top of my list so far. Just needs a trick EFI setup.

http://ford.shafiroff.com/ford_crate...clevor_hhr.php

At least you're THINKING! I like that part!


I like big inch small blocks --- and stick some 8 stack efi on it and it would have instant throttle response - it would look kool and then you could be like other kool guys that I can think of on here. :D

I would be kool? You mean like Rodger? He had stacks on his truck. I talked with him at Good Guys last weekend, and he's pretty Kool, with a capital 'K.' Although, now he is talking about LSA crate engines, and billet stuff. I seem to recall one other kool guy, but his name escapes me at this time. :lol:

Here's some fairly recent discussion on the 351 Coyote idea...

http://www.modularfords.com/f17/bada...coyote-188737/

You know. I followed this link to the thread and read thru it. Then I noticed the dates on the posts. Thinking I was smart, I was about to post that the news you had was old but then I check the article I posted only to find it was older still. (6/11) Oddly enough, this article was just sent to my email via Stang TV. They must be recycling old articles.

So now back to the Windsor block. Just keep the weight low on the car and go 351 block based stroker.

Yeah I got excited about my Turbo Coyote idea and started doing research. I got stuck on the fact that my 427, any 427, is making 400+ rwftlbs + by 3k rpm. The Coyote is only making 300 rwftlbs and the boost doesn't come up until after that. They don't really start matching the big motor until 4k+. I guess that's where the heat pump style blowers shine, will need to see blown Coyote dyno graph. So for me I can't see giving up that 3k rpm hit of torque. I just need to keep working with engine guys to try to get mine to the streetable OEM type performance I want. I'm as die hard as any of you about keeping a Ford motor but paying the $3k premium for the Al block is a killer when even the base LS motors are all alum blocks, and OEM to boot.

Although there are some interesting new heads coming out like the TrickFlow R11 and the Kaase P-38 which may mean big step ups in performance for the Windsor.

And have you guys seen how much power the guys are making and holding with the 5.3 junkyard LS motors ? $1k for the motor, home built turbo system and BIG POWA. Kind of makes you feel chumpy for spending thousands on a motor build. If they blow it up, they just go get another junkyard truck motor and good to go.

Matt... quit thinking so much... just make something happen... and deal with it (fix it) later.... life's more interesting that way. :lol:

Just have a Stone IPA (or better yet a Pliny) or 3 and the answer will just pop in your head. :unibrow:

Preston, I don't have a graph on hand, but I remember seeing a comparison between a GT and GT500 both with Kenne Bell twin screws. The 5.0 in the GT killed the GT500 for peak power numbers, but keep in mind, it is a much higher compression motor than the GT500's mill. Down low, the GT500 had the edge, and it wasn't until the 5.0 Coyote was fed 15lbs of boost that it started putting out healthy amounts of low end torque.

Dave, I've got a bunch of Ballast point brews in the fridge, but they are all IPAs and I'm getting tired of IPAs. That is all anyone drinks in California anymore. :lol: I sipped on a nice stout while looking at small block Fords the other day. Did you know an aluminum 8.2" deck block only weighs 80ish lbs?? Maybe I should...no. Nevermind. I'm not going to say anything else. Don't want to have to explain why I changed my mind again.

In all seriousness here.... I'm going to compare this motor issue to one that we've been encountering for the last 4 or 5 years.

All of our best friends have second homes -- Scottsdale -- Palm Springs -- Tucson -- Montana -- Sun Valley... etc. ALL of them have been pushing THEIR location as where WE should buy a place. Obviously these are all nice places to have a second home when you live in Poopieville Seattle. The problem is -- they weren't where WE wanted to be. We said this a 1000 times... WE will buy something when WE figure it out. And that means -- WE will jump on a place once there is someplace that we absolutely know is "right" for US.

My point is -- when you don't have a motor -- and there are a billion OPTIONS out there... and everyone has an opinion on what is best. Take your time, just like you're doing now, and you'll eventually come up with what is best for your build.

When you close your eyes and you "see" your car... what is it that you see? Not asking you to explain it -- just saying that you might keep coming back to a particular vision. When you figure that out.... That's what you should go with.

WE ended up with a place in Sun Valley... and neither of us would have figured that out until we accidentally saw a place that turned us both on... and we realized that I love to ski and she loves to bike and hike... and we both love at least two seasons over there. DONE. Once that happened it was super easy and we're excited about it. Until then - we could have cared less. :cheers:

Boy...

a lot of pages about what motor you should buy. :rolleyes:

Can I play? :rofl:

Yeah I hear ya. I switch back and forth from the hoppy stuff to the Belgians periodically. Delirium Tremens is a personal fave and usually there is one in my fridge.



It's kinda fun isn't it. :lol:

Well said Greg. :yes: :yes:

Sure, Brett. What is your suggestion? Is is something you saw at SEMA, i.e. bedazzled or gold plated? I'm sure gold plated would help keep under hood temps down. :lol:

Ok, what would you do?

Dave, Delerium Tremens is a good choice. I've always got a St. Bernardus Abt 12 tucked away in the corner, (and a Speedway stout, can't forget about that one). There is just something about having a happy friar on a bottle of beer that makes things better. Perhaps we should start a beer snob thread to go next to Todd's healthy living one.

Greg, when I visualize the car, right now I see a Windsor/Clevor with stack injection. Actually, after my LS engine mishap, I have been reduced to simply dreaming about any engine that can see hard miles and will run trouble free for a long time. I could have picked up and ran a used Z06 completely into the ground for the cost of pulling and modifying, and installing, and breaking, my two different LS engines. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I want trouble free, and that usually means overbuilding with components, and simplifying ideas, so and iron Ford small block doesn't sound so bad.

Not to get off track
 

How is that LS motor coming for the 69?

Here is one for the Mustang

http://www.racingjunk.com/Road-Racin...all-Block.html

...and if you are going to be a bear, be a Grizzly

http://www.racingjunk.com/Circle-Tra...te-engine.html

Matt -- I think the beer snob thread is a fantastic idea. You or me start it? :unibrow:


And whoever this Payton guy is... I like him. :lol:

:woot:

This one looks fun

http://www.roushyates.com/EngineProg...rformance.aspx

Go ahead and start it. Get us going with some good "snobservations," on your favorite brews. :lol:

Yeah that Payton guy is pretty cool. I feel like Goldie Locks, the first engine is too small, but the second is too big.

Neat build- any "updates" on it?