This guy has a really good take on all of this, it is a little lengthy but I bet you will chuckle several times and not stop reading...

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/20...n-gun-control/



Jeff-

If she'd had my Kimber she'd have only needed to hit him once...:thumbsup:

The big problem with gun stats is you don't see how many attack/murders are prevented because someone had a gun.
Just legally carrying and pulling it out has prevented countless attacks. Then you also have the below, which is the above story and one other story from the other side.

Scenario 1) A woman is home alone and hears knocking on the front door late at night. Moments later, she hears intruders breaking into her house. Not having a gun, she dutifully calls 911 and waits for help, trying to hide for her safety. The intruders find her, shoot her several times, and rob her home. No arrests have been made.

Scenario 2) A woman is home with her two kids. After someone repeatedly ringing the doorbell, she calls her husband at work, who tells her to hide with the two kids while he calls 911. The intruder forces his way in to the home with a crowbar, opens the door to the closet where the 3 were hiding, only to find himself face to face with a .38 - and gets shot 5 times. The suspect survives and is in custody. The woman and her kids are safe.

I'm sure most would choose the second scenario; those who don't, and perhaps don't agree with gun ownership in any form, would probably dismiss the second scenario as unlikely and improbable, and that the odds are against you actually defending yourself in such a manner.

There's only one problem:

Neither of these are hypothetical.

Both happened within 24 hours of today in the greater Atlanta area.

----------------------------------------------

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/story/20...-fulton-county

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/m...unshots/nTnGR/

Home invasion is happens more than most know and it's been on the rise over the past few years. My wife get's calls like this all the time where a person is cowering inside their home, hoping that whomever is pounding on their door will just go away. This is the criminal trying to find out if you home or not. First line of defense is to actually yell "who is it". Nothing says you can't be dialing 911 if you suspect it's someone meaning you harm.

The recent shooting of the home invader you pointed out is proof that limiting the capacity of a firearm, used in self defense, could leave a person vulnerable. The shooter emptied all 6 round and connected with 5. The home invader survived, but what if there had been more than one? Not the time to be trying to reload your revolver! Trust me when I say that it's usually more than one guy. Hey..today's TV's are pretty heavy.

Nice tuff guy talk, but not smart on any level. While I'm not against shooting someone in the head if I have to, putting two in the chest and then one to the head would be viewed as execution. That alone would cause you to be jailed for a very long time, regardless if you where found innocent or not. The best thing anyone can do when they are forced to go defensive is to get the police on the phone as fast as possible. If you just shot someone you had better request an ambulance/medical (maybe two, one for the bad guy and one for you). It would be smart to go so far as to give that person whatever aid you can (not saying it has to be much). Reasons behind this is to ONE: Make a good 911 tape. It's your best defense on what happened. TWO: You're showing that you did not want to kill the person, but where forced to fire your weapon. THREE: Even after you shot them, you did all you could to save their life. Lastly, if the intruder had a weapon of any sort, insure that it doesn't get removed from the area. Don't touch it, but don't let someone run off with it either. Oh and grab anyone that witnessed what happened.

Accomplish all that and you just did all the work for the police, DA and will deter any attorney that wants to sue you. Be smart and safe guard the rest of your life and all that you have, not just with a gun.

Curtis brings up some good points --- but not completely accurate, or even proper under the law... There's really no law that states you must render aid. And I, for one, would not. Doing so may in fact bring about a whole new set of circumstances such as "destroying evidence" or doing more harm than good etc. Another factor you should consider is that there very well maybe another intruder you're unaware of "yet"... and now you're disarmed and distracted.

Best to just call 9-1-1 and let them sort it out.

BTW - The last thing I want to do is to shoot someone -- and then have them survive and sue me for taking care of them for the rest of their lives on a ventilator. No thanks!

EVERYONE should understand the laws IN THEIR STATE... as pertains to defending ones property and person. The laws vary greatly! Part of your responsibility of owning firearms is that you should know the laws. Many states laws are vague at best. But in the end - if you did the reasonable and right thing in the circumstance... you're probably going to be okay.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

Also to add to my post, I have signs telling people that I have an alarm..I am not trying to bait someone to rob me, I am actually trying to get them to stay out...

California laws...First you get sued if you did not have a beware of dog sign...

Then you get sued because you had a sign and put one up because you knew your dog was dangerous :willy: :willy: :willy: :willy:

Also I do pray that nothing like that will ever happen...I wouldn't mind going the rest of my Life without confronting an Intruder..

....... and because it wasn't printed in Chinese and Spanish....


:cheers:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Too funny.....Or Ebonics....

Hang on while I grab this bucket of gasoline.....

My response was to your statement of "two to the chest and one to the head with a large caliber weapon". I am not quoting any law. What I am saying is that shooting someone in self defense is, in a way, a mental game in addition to practiced muscle memory. It is important to protect your self and your family for what comes after such an act. You successfully defended the safety of you and your family (regardless of where the act happened) which is great! Now you need to be concerned with what comes after. What would a reasonable person who doesn't want to kill someone do? That's how our legal system looks at it and sadly it isn't always aligned with what you and I think is reasonable. What I'm saying is that IF you do all you can to show you didn't want to kill another human (show being the key word) it would go a long way in the defense of any legal actions brought against you. When I go through the mental game in my head, I always think "how will my actions be perceived by others". What if you shot a man who broke into your home with the intent of doing harm to you and your family and that story made the news? I for one want the media (if they would report it) to be showing that I shot the intruder and then did all I could to save his life. What I don't want is the media or any liberal to twist the story and say that I wanted that person dead. Two to the chest and one to the head would/could be seen as execution by many. My goal is to give no one, anything that could be used against me. My tax dollars already support enough dirt bags and the last thing I want is to be paying one of their family members after they sue me.

Now...does this mean that I have a problem leaving a bad guy gurgling in a pool of their own blood? Nope. I honestly have a low tolerance for B.S. and criminals. But protecting what I have, well beyond the shooting of another human is just another level of protection for my family.

Sitting back in your recliner, feet up, sipping on your favorite beverage and watching the clean up crew remove the body or trusting that some T.V. like CSI team is going to come in and prove you where justified isn't smart. Make it easy for them, while making it easy for you. What do you think is better, explaining to the 911 dispatcher (my wife) what happened after or having the entire event recorded via the police departments 911 line? Yeah there might not be enough time to get them on the phone, but if you could, even if the phone is just sitting next to you as you defend your self, it would be a huge plus!

I will say that there is no way to be 100% in every situation. There are to many variables. But being prepared mentally and protecting against what comes after is just as important.

You're not wrong, but your not right either. You can do more to protect your family that just working on your trigger control.

The dog sign thing is crazy and just shows how the law can be twisted and used against you. Seriously that's just stupid.

The alarm signs are great. I see that as you warning an intruder that you are protecting your home. To me that's a first line of defense kind of thing and smart. If someone made it past all of your layers of defense and you where forced to shoot them, that could be a huge plus in defending your self in court or against any legal actions.

For anyone that thinks I am crazy, take a moment and read this:

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...%20Booklet.pdf

What this guy went through is nuts. It's also proof that things can and will be bad if you are ever forced to defend your self or family against an attack.

Being outside with a weapon is a huge responsibilty.. And I don't make light of an intruder entering my home....Plain and simple, if they are in my Home, I fear for my life...If I can use the phone after getting my weapon, I would.If I can hit the alarm button first, I would..If it all happens too fast and they are in my room sooner than I can call 911, I am in fear for my life..I won't go looking for them, or run after them...My initial statement is only meant if they are coming at me..I truly would feel that it is them or me...No anger, or hate but fear...If they get to my weapon, I am dead, and my family is too...

So no Rambo here, sorry you took it that way...They would have to be coming at me for me to use dealy force, and it would have to be inside my Home...

:lol: Rambo. No I didn't take it as that. I actually care about good people like you and your family. I want you all to be happy, healthy, wealthy and wise. Just giving you a little food for thought so you can be better prepared for what I hope you will never be faced with.

:cheers:

Thanks Brother...You too...:cheers: :lateral:

Oh stewardess, I speak jive....

http://youtu.be/190iqepL-G4

This picture represents the only way you would get the jump on a home invader.
http://s2.filmwatch.com/media/13/blo...6596_1_org.jpg

Criminals will always have the upper hand cause they plan for it. They are equip for it and they expect it.

I don't care who you are and what you are carrying. Unless you train for it everyday or live in Syria, you will most likely fail at being a hero. You will more likely be a martyr for the religion of vigilanties. If you are a law abiding citizen carrying a gun to protect yourself you are not immune to the unknown and surprise. Criminals find a way and will always continue to do so. They do not think like we do, and we don't think like them.

Well said.

rare case but she did the right thing...hide and prepare. Just the few seconds she had evading gave her a fighting chance to prepare. No one can predict how one wold react in a situation.
An interesting study done by a Bethlehem ERT and ABC. This is how 87% of normal humans would react in a crisis situation.

That is an interesting video. All the bio-feedback stuff is very true. The muscle memory, training, being mentally prepared, all spot on. Our military has been using that system since there was a military.

I do take issue with their "scenario". The really long T-shirt and making sure they had those big clunky gloves on. Using nervous college kids who were on edge before it even started. The "assailant" shoots the teacher and then immeadiately moves to the "secret" carry person. That is all orchestrated to give a specific result... in my opinion. I am not military or law enforcement. I have no training in combat shooting... it just seemed obvious.


Jeff-

Jeff-You are 100% correct in your observations. This video was proven to be a setup.

I was thinking the same thing. Class full of students and he goes directly to the armed guy. I'd rather have a chance at defending myself than to hope if I'm in that situation that I can get away or be spared.

That's the best video I've seen -- and is IMHO 100% accurate.... I have been in police training scenarios - I go to the Seattle Police range weekly - I have police friends... and I can tell you that even when you know something is going to happen -- you're reaction times SUCK! And your accuracy SUCKS...
But I also agree that the shooter targeted the unsuspecting CC holder and the odds are that wouldn't happen... so it's a bit of a set up.

I don't think any of us has much of a chance in this "set up" style scenario...

BUT --- I have carry permits for when I'm on the road... I'm on the side of the road at night - or perhaps broken down etc... THEN I have a chance at protecting myself.

I don't have ANY guns not locked up at home. EVER. The odds of my home being broken into while I'm there -- by a gun toting robber... is just about zilch. I'll take my odds in that scenario. We have panic silent call remotes by our bed. Hopefully I hear something and have enough time to react to even doing that. I have adult children that come and go - are away from home - but are always free to come in. No way would I want to wake up and accidentally shoot one of them or one of their friends. I'd rather it "be me" than to take that chance.

That's just my opinion. I'm just not the paranoid type I guess. And I certainly do care about safety and I like my guns... so I'm not anti gun or anti defense.

Thats funny Greg, useing the SPD and firearms training in the same sentence...ahh, you crack me up! :rofl:

:cheers:
Dan

I think you guys are missing point.

It's the surprise and planning advantage that the bad guys have over you. Look past the clothing, stage and arena. Look at the amount of time they have to react. These where people with loaded weapons on them and they could not react in time. The ones that did missed or would have shot an innocent.

Do you seriously think you are going to have a chance if someone kicks door the front door and you are sitting down for dinner or in bed asleep. Maybe you have your back turned and your loading groceries into your SUV. If you are truly a law abiding citizen your firearm is in the safe locked up and ammo out of chamber.

My point and message is you do not have an advantage what so ever and don't leave yourself open as a victim. Be aware and listen to that voice in your head telling you something's off with the group of teenagers walking down the street towards you, that car that keeps driving past the house or the strange peps that come to your door asking for donations.

Do not assume you can be a hero. Protect yourself and haulass to safety. Who do you think the first target is going to be? The guy fighting back or the guy standing up to shoot back.

Dan -- It's BELLEVUE police department that's messed up! But I do get your point... :lol:

It's just that one of my best friends is the Head of Seattle Security - secures all of Seattle's buildings and security services - department is separate from SPD (not a rent a cop) - and my other buddy Myrle Carner... are both SPD. So I have to be careful of being critical - lest they draw down on me!

That's called "The Nike Defense"....


I agree with you on some points and totally disagree on other points.


If you were a CC guy and wearing - and you're at the mall and a shooting breaks out... I'd prefer to "have a fighting chance" of stopping the guy.

If I'm on the side of the road - and have my Kimber locked and loaded - and I go to bed "EXPECTING" someone to try to mess with my stuff or bust in... I have a fighting chance. And I feel infinitely better.

So I think most of us are torn between trying to do something if it ever came to that - rather than just being a helpless victim.

In the case where you're sitting at the movie and some azzwipe comes in blasting... agree -- not good odds, but you never know!

Walking down the street -- after having dinner downtown -- the odd group of young men acts rowdy and suspicious and disruptive.... having a CC on my hip would make me feel INFINITELY better ---- and if they passed you and then turned on you (you'd have already had that peak awareness going) just "showing" you're armed would probably be enough to persuade them to hassle someone else. Either way - I'd still FEEL better. The key here is awareness and avoidance (crossing the street -- trying to keep your distance -- ducking into an open business until they pass). I'd still have my strap off and my hand on the grip. :unibrow:

Sound asleep - some cat burglar is already in the house... and you suddenly awake... if he has bad intentions -- you're probably already dead or injured... BUT if he's just a burglar and you yell out "I have a gun... get the f out of my house" and slide one in the chamber... my guess is HE does the Nike defense....

When you talk to cops -- some go 30 years without ever having drawn on anyone -- and they're put in a bad position every day! So the odds of "us" ever having an armed confrontation are next to zero. I've managed to go almost 60 years without having one! :D If I lived somewhere other than where I do -- I might even have the Kimber in the bedroom but I've just never felt the need. I live in "Pleasantville"... the bad guys are on the other side of the lake -- or way south of me.

There was a shooting the other night at a night club here -- long story -- by a known murderer... and you know what happened? They closed the place and announced they wouldn't reopen. :woot:

Nothing good happens after midnight....

I agree, I'd love to have a fighting chance too but as they say in CC class. "Having a gun out when the police decide to show up. I'd rather be still concealed than be mistaken as a possible suspect".

I was more using a non CCW holder example since most states are "may issue".

I'm one of those guys that think a CC doesn't give you ANYTHING except the right to carry concealed...

If you're going to carry --- or even USE firearms of ANY kind... then you need to invest in various classes. Not just target practice! It's like owning a high hp car... if you own something like that -- you should be equally engaged in LEARNING how to drive! To me - they go hand in hand.

There are so many GREAT classes a guy/gal can take! Including knife defense classes -- and tactical classes etc. There's a fabulous training group right in good old Pahrump! We should get a group together before or after SEMA / OUSCI and take one! My law enforcement buddies say this is one of the very best!

http://www.frontsight.com

This is good dialog about a very sensitive subject so I will add some more idiotic ramblings of my own...

I feel certain even though I have made myself proficient with my weapon, practiced all aspects of cover, draw, reload, watch my surroundings, try and think through scenarios in my head... I will most likely soil my diaper and never get my weapon out if the worst happens.

I always conceal. My philosophy is similar to the samurai, if I have to show it, the end of it will be smoking. Obviously doesn't cover every situation but trying to threaten someone into backing down by showing "I have this" is preached against by all the experts. I believe that having a force multiplier (even if it is hidden) changes how you interact with someone intending you harm, they can sense you will not be a victim.

The nature of my work exposes me to a lot of different people. What I see out of my fellow sapiens gives me cause to doubt that everyone's values are like mine. The common example is why resist over a car or a wallet or a TV, let them have it. No one's life is worth that... simple possesions. The problem is, they are my F'ing possesions. A lot more gets stolen from me than stuff if I do nothing. I am not fighting back for the $20 in my wallet ($40 if my wife has given me my allowance). Obviously if a gun is in my face, here's the keys. But if the opportunity presents for me to legally defend myself...


Jeff-

I resemble that remark....:D

When I said "show" it - doesn't mean pulling it out and waving it around.... I'm thinking more like hand on the grip - strap undone - whether they actually "SEE" anything is doubtful but if someone is familiar at all -- and has bad intentions - they'd now what they're about to face. If not - they'd have no clue.... and all will pass...

Bravo! Great approach!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Now GW, we all know you like pulling it out and waving it around...:unibrow:
(know what you mean though, I would be very tempted to roll my clothing back if things started to smell sketchy in a situation)

Jeff-

Don't ya just LOVE hypocrites??

Those damn two faced lying cheating hypocritical Hollywood A holes

Just like thier anti drug adds

EGG ZACTLY



:willy: :lol: