Thanks for the detailed explanation, it helps guys like me understand what works and why. :thumbsup:

Are you bringing anything to USCA Portland?...you should!

:cheers:
Dan

No problem.. I wish I had more time & patience to sit here & write more detailed explantions.. But my OCD will not allow me to stay in one place for a long time.. :lol:

Karl has allowed me to run the Challenger this year @ three USCA events to see if I can squeeze my way into Optima with points.. Already did Laguna Seca! Next events will be Fontana & Portland with the Challenger..

Hey Chris, Always love seeing your updates Bro! No one can say that you are ever satisfied with your results as you are always pushing the envelope! Keep inspiring the rest of us :thumbsup:

Good luck in Fontana and I'll see you in Portland! Watching you run at Laguna was fun, seeing the smile on your face after a run was even better!

:thumbsup:
Dan

^^ looking forward to watching this and how it woks out! Cool stuff taking these cars to the next level

I tried running my cars with manual brakes since they are lighter and much easier to setup dual M/C's and much easier to package as well. I figured it would be fine since almost all race cars use manual brakes even the big heavy stock cars etc.

But, yeah, they sucked. Sucked for street driving and sucked for track driving. Very difficult to be smooth when you had to put so much muscle into the brakes. I ended up mounting a hydraboost with a bracket that uses dual M/C's, but the whole contraption is almost 16" long and quite heavy and would not package in almost anything but a specially built tube frame (like my car).

To be happy with manual brakes on a street car I think you need to be <2800 lbs. and like Chris said you still need a perfect mix of bore sizes and pad friction.

Okay - I seriously don't get putting power brakes on a car -- to me that's a bandaid for a poor braking system.


It takes no effort to stop the Mustang or tap the brake to set for turn in.... and this car has little tiny rotors and calipers (2 piston front and single piston Corvette style rears). The Mustang takes effort to DRIVE but doesn't take any leg effort to stop or slow down. Coming from a guy that used to be in the brake business -- I'm very surprised at this issue.

>It takes no effort to stop the Mustang or tap the brake to set for turn in

Well, yeah, but you are incredibly strong and powerful compared to normal men.

I don't get it either. I ran my car at 3500 lbs with me in it with manual brakes on the street and track (1500 total miles) for almost 2 years and loved it. Never will go back to power brakes.

I just hated the "mush" of the boosted brake cars I did drive.

Diff'rent strokes diff'rent folks I guess.

And yeah that Weld dude is POWERFUL. :lol:

I'll jump in on the f*ck power brakes bandwagon. When I owned the Chicane-LM Camaro (known now as BluBalz) it had manual everything- door locks, steering, brakes, & windows. I had not ever had a better braking or feeling car than that setup with the Alcon calipers; and it was not a heavy pedal press to get the vehicle stopping very fast.

Only one that came close to it was a 68 Camaro with a Hydratech boosted unit on it that Paul helped us setup. That thing was worlds better than any vacuum assisted car I've driven.

Ok. Back to lurk mode.

Tyler

^^^

The man. The myth. The legend.

He lives.

I think the pads are the issue or the pressure isn't right at the caliper... which could be several things stacking up -- pedal ratio -- bore size -- balance.... and perhaps far too hard of a compound. We all want to think we're big time racers and need all this race stuff -- but frankly -- few of us dive into a corner the way race guys do... and we just don't build enough heat into the system..... some of these pad compounds want to see red hot rotors to work well.

Of course - as usual - I'm writing to evoke thought and research - I'm not a pad or brake expert and certainly can't drive worth a damn... just saying that I think there's something more going on here that is giving the hard pedal - or lack of stopping power - or too much effort vs not enough brake.

The manual brakes two piston front / single piston rear BAER brakes on my 4000 lb Nomad would throw you thru the windshield using your big toe... The small Wilwood system in the Mustang is awesome -- except that when driven hard you just begin to feel some fade (they're small - WTF! They can only take so much)... and even then they feel solid. The large by huge/giant 6 piston front / 4 piston rears - Wilwoods on my buddy Pierre's car are crap on the street. Takes way too much heat to get them to even begin to stop... and way too much pedal effort. I keep telling him - that's what you get when you're running race brakes on a grocery store drive.

If it was me --- I'd be putting a pressure gauge on those calipers and getting some numbers before I'd rip the system out and go power.

But then that's just me --- I know Cris is an expert at all this stuff so I'm just talking out my ass. LOL

I would ASSume the pad/rotors were properly bedded.... and that the compounds have been messed with (sometimes you have to get pads from somebody that DIDN'T make the brakes....).

Forgot my train of thought in the last post.....


The tiny little '33 Ford weighs 2975 lbs - runs 2 piston front - single piston rear Wilwoods.... with a Moal pedal assembly and dual CNC master and balance bar... THE BRAKES SUCK... The pedal is hard - takes too much effort and not enough reward given the effort applied. I told Roy he has the wrong master bore on the car... Not sure what's in there but whatever it is - it's wrong.

We have no brake issues with the Challenger! The brakes work good but want to make it easier to drive on the road course.. The Booster is not a band aid but an enhancement to improve on driving smoother & deeper into a turn to scrub off some speed.. Glad to see that your brake system works good for you on your Mustang..

Working for a brake company for 10 years.. I thought I knew a lot.. but when I started driving myself is where I finally realized that I had still much to learn.. Danny has taught me what it takes for brakes to survive a road course.. brake ducting, brake fluid, & most important brake pads.. Heat is your enemy on brake systems & deflection of components.. I continue to learn something new every day.. Karl is a pretty damm good driver & if I can improve his lap times with power brakes.. Then that is what he gets!

Everybody has different experiences or opinions with brakes & just like any other product that does not meet my needs or requirements.. I just take matters into my own hands! Sometimes manufactures make components so that they can be used in many different applications & the level of performance is not the same from one application to another.. I like components specifically to what my intended use is for ..

BTW- We have a full Aim Sports Data Acquisition that gives us brake bias readings..

http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/...ps90ff6cdb.jpg

Your build - your customer.... Not saying you shouldn't do whatever you feel like doing. Just saying that power brakes shouldn't do anything for you except to be able to run the pedal with your little toe instead of your big one.

I would find that my feet are way too busy to be trying to modulate a power brake let alone trying to trail brake one... but it's not my car. If I was only going to drive it on the street -- and I wanted a girl to drive it... then I'd put power on it. LOL :action-smiley-027:

Not everyone can be as manly as you, Greg.

I personally find power brakes to be much better at trail braking since the pedal generally has longer travel and is soft enough that you can roll your ankle up, instead of trying to control how fast you lift your leg of the manual brake pedal.

On the other hand, I find it much easier to work up to your threshold of braking without locking up the brakes in a manual setup. I would flat spot all of my Camaros tires really badly with a booster.

It's all give and take I guess. If I had ABS I might consider power brakes in my '69. Whatever makes Karl most comfortable on the track is what should be in the car, I think.

What ever.....you guys can have your manual brakes.

Try playing with brake pads. Youl'd be amazed at what a really good brake pad will do for what you might think is a poor brake set up

Trail brake with your LEFT foot...

Opinions are like assholes. Manual brakes are great for threshold at high speed. For autocross or street, I'd prefer boosted. This after 3 different pad types and two master cylinders. I didn't have a choice so manual it was.

Karl has chicken legs! He needs all the help he can get.. :D


We are currently running Hawk Brake Pads! The best improvement we could have made to stop the car plus running Castrol SRF brake fluid.. The brake fluid is expensive but all forms of racing is expensive..

I played with differnet bore sizes on the master cylinders & got them better for the manual setup..

That would require learning a new skill. I can barely barely stay on top of the skills I've learned and try to use.

Chris, Hawk makes several different brake compounds. Obviously in auto x your going to want a pad that works well initially and then you have the option of how strong you want the initial bite. IMO for road course you will want a pad that will operate at higher temps and obviously these pads will need a lap or two to get to optimum braking performance. I'm running a pad that most of you probably have never heard of and there are only 3 people Ive mentioned these pads to. At the same time I'm still running the Baer Track/Touring brake system which would be on the lower latter of the systems out there and have bad no complaints as long as they are bled before every event. Once again, all I'm trying to say is trying different pad compounds may sway you to stick with what you have but in addition I prefer power brakes

I do think the pad compound, and master bore size are key. I had the best Baer had available at that time (15" 6 piston, really good stuff) and couldn't figure out why I had to stand on the brakes so hard to get the car to scrub speed. Wasn't sure that in a super panic stop I could push hard enough to get the car to stop the way I wanted.

After talking to the folks at Carbotech, they explained why that was, and what I could do to fix it. Power brakes was one of the options, the other was a lot easier. The normal compounds Baer, wildwood etc. use are kind of designed for power brakes. Once I got the masters sized right, the guys at Carbotech hooked me up with several different compounds. I settled on one which I call my Superman brakes. Different compound front to rear, but it was like putting on a cape, never thought about power brakes after that. I found if you go too aggressive on compound, you can't get enough heat for them to work right either, you end up back to needing a lot of pedal pressure to stop that way too.

They told me running the wrong pads can work with power brakes because the power assist will allow enough pedal pressure to achieve the desired brake feel, usually harder on the brakes though. I do think, what ever makes the driver more confident with pedal feel is what you need to do.

The difference is that we actually own cars.... and use them.









Thus my earlier post about all of us running the big boy full race stuff.... but there's problems with that because we run 10 or 20 LAPS --- or go out hot on an Auto X course... with ZERO chance for heat to begin to work.

Carbotech my suggest some girlie Ceramic pads for Karls "chicken legs"....


Or Cris can put a bandaid on his problem.

IMO you nailed it right there Ron. Bore size and compound.

He also nailed it when he said, whatever makes you the most comfortable. Debating about the best brake set up is like arguing over your favorite beer or politics.

It's not called arguing -- it's called a forum where people discuss various aspects of their cars (on this forum) and sometimes people even learn stuff just by reading or participating in these discussions.

People learn lots of stuff with an exchange of opinions... Nobody has said (that I've read anyway) "you're an idiot because you don't do "X" my way"....

I drove 12 hours today and am a bit "rummy".....



Just wanted folks to know the reason I chimed in on Cris's thread in the first place is because I think LOTS of people have spent a small fortune on the biggest baddest brakes that money can buy -- and are in a similar position of not really liking the performance... but are afraid to admit it or post it up. Thus a good discussion about the various possible fixes --- whether it's power or pad - or ratio or bore size --- I thought was a good topic.

Re-read this post and it sounds MEAN --- and that wasn't my intent. I'm too rummy to post a good thought.. :>)

Go take a nap Weld :lol:

You are mean. Part of your charm xox

Yeah -- pretty much.




LOL

It's all about trial and error. Cris has a solution. I can't wait to hear about how the new solution works.

Well there is no argument about one thing. The beer you drink sucks.

Did Weld start drinking again? :cheers:

The chicken leg comment was over the top and hilarious. I'm picturing Karl at the gym this very morning doing squats. Its all in good fun, and if we pick up a nugget of information while busting each others balls, then that's good too.

I liked the fact that Todd had an opinion, on others having an opinion.....



30 years of sobriety in May. Good gawd I'm boring.

Ding, Ding, Ding We have a winnner.

Yeah, I have had solutions too. And solutions for those solutions. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Excuse me...:D

Stielow runs power, Hobaugh runs manual. They have both won the Optima Challenge.

I ran carbotech's on the street. Xp10 and AX6 I believe. They moaned and squealed like a pig. They were great on the road course, not so much everywhere else. I found the Hawk HP Plus to be the best all around pad giving up some performance on the road course. The stock wildwood pads were terrible. Hobaugh said my brakes were great. I'd still put power brakes similar to my Vette on another car if it was to be driven on a public road or autocrossed.

Next year you'll probably be arguing for a transmission like the 'Vette has for public roads or autocross. :lol:

I have to agree with Weld on this one. This is some of the best info on braking I have read "IN THE UNIVERSE"!!!!

Thanks or sharing guys.