You guys are on a roll. Especially Greg.

Kinda reminds me of the Community Reinvestment Act and Barney Frank and friends wanting to make Homeownership a right to be "fair"... If you could hold a pen and sign the papers....poof....The house is yours....Well not really yours, for that long anyways...

That didn't work out so well now did it ? Well actually for some of us it did seeing as 2009 was a great year to invest, but more most , the subprime lending was the opening of the barn door that let all the animals out..

Anytime government gets involved, it cost too much, takes too long, ends up screwing up the whole thing, and gets blamed on someone else..

Hey now, Pelosi said that giving away more food stamps would stimulate the economy:wow: :willy: :willy:

THIS ^^

Yeah -- let's see.... poor people (nothing wrong with them other than they are poor).. buy food and basics. Pay little or no taxes. Use the majority of "free" services.

I'm just a dumbazz 1 percenter.... I employ yard service people - pool people - property management people... buy tons of car parts and services... pay huge income taxes and property taxes... We travel a LOT so book airfares - use hotels - restaurants - taxis or rental cars etc... we use ZERO "free" services...

I wonder which one of us has more or less effect on the overall economy?:wow:

Just a JOKE guys --- but not far from the truth.....




Romney said, "When I'm elected, I will put Americans back to work," and 51% said, "Screw That!!":cheers:

To: Nancy Pelosi et al...

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...-cool-peop.jpg

I'll estimate 95% of the people who's actions triggered the need to capture these photo's are receiving multiple levels of taxpayer funded support services.

http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/4430530_S2HmxR

BINGO!


I know, right? I see how that works out.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Just to add some fuel to the fire, I ran into several articles on up and coming 401k plan changes:

http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/now-obama-wants-your-401k/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505146_1...hould-be-glad/

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blu...ollment-provis

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-125710

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...929233,00.html

The way I figure it, social security, etc. will all be bankrupt by the time I can retire. Thus, I have been plowing as much as possible into my 401k ever since I left the military.

Now, they want to grab that money. :(

At least they won't grab my taxable investments (oh, wait, they are!).

Sigh...

:cheers:

:willy: so ya'll don't support POTUS ?

Nope....I have nothing against him personally..I don't know him..But as far as his policies ? Nope, I cannot support him.

I wish him no ill will or harm, but as a Leader ? Nope...

I understand the election is over and it is time to move on, but I don't believe in the direction he is taking us.:lateral: :cheers:

Personally I respect the office... and I abide by the law... But I don't have to respect this particular Presidents ideals.

I can see that. Why would anyone respect a president who, for example, wants to see middle class Americans given a shot at decent wages and living conditions, who believes in education and passing on to our children a planet that's still viable, who respects the fundamental rights of all Americans to marry, serve in the armed forces and be treated with respect, and who thinks that it's not moral to balance the budget on the backs of the elderly through cuts to medicare and social security?

Yes, so much more reflective of American values to gut the safety net (and the promises made over the last 50 years) so we can give tax breaks to the obscenely wealthy and allow capitalists to flourish at the expense of both the country and its citizens.

Step away from the Kool-Aid before somebody gets hurt!!

LOL!!:willy:

I was just going to ignore this response because it's really more of a flame than a discussion of the issues. So far this thread has remained a fairly simple posts of peoples beliefs without rebuttal.

I don't think 'most' people want to see the gutting of the entitlements that hard working, tax paying Americans need. What I do think 'most' Americans would agree on is that many of these programs have become far too liberal and out of control. Obama Phones is just one tiny example of what most folks would think is "over the top".

So, the way America works is that we usually have to have a great debate. Then we can expose the weaknesses - throw around some ideas - radical on the left and right - and come back to a consensus with something that works for most.

Where we are in those debates (on many fronts) reminds me of the old hippie days with the girl putting a flower in the end of the barrel of a soldiers rifle. Obviously two quite opposite sides I'd say.

Here's my - to use your statement about gutting social programs - idea on Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. Rather than just raise taxes on everything and everyone... how about we modify these payouts in a reverse of paying taxes - in other words - the more you make - the less you get - and the less you make the MORE you get? Why should I get SS and Medicare etc -- I'm a 1% guy. I don't need these programs - and I'm perfectly happy NOT receiving them regardless of the fact that I've paid in. I have a buddy that gets SS and he opened up an auto deposit / auto pay account just so his check pays the lease on his Mercedes. To me - that's just plain wrong.
It is, however, equally wrong that my niece collects $600 a month because she had a baby out of wedlock that has a defective arm. His arm is just mildly deformed - and he's had 3 or 4 FREE surgeries in order to correct it. She's been getting this monthly payment since the day he was born. Does she put it into an account so he'll never have to work? Does this money come with ANY strings attached at all? NO... it's just pissed down a rat hole every month and looked at as "FREE MONEY" to spend. THAT IS WRONG and is the type of thing that needs to be stopped.

I'm a democratic republican. What I'd like to see happen is that people like me - the rich guys you hate - be denied SS etc -- and I'd like to see it go to REAL NEEDS of people that are barely getting by. BUT I don't want to see mine going to people like my niece.

Now -- what tax paying people are PO'd about is that they feel their money is WASTED. And rather than just being forced to pay add infinitum - they'd like to force a discussion and see some REAL changes to these "programs" BEFORE they just blindly send more dough into the waste pit called Washington DC.

You've all read or seen the stories about the shoeless NYC guy...


To me - this is a person that obviously needs far more "help" than he's getting and I for one don't mind paying my taxes to help him... He needs MORE help not less. I need NO help per my earlier post.

This LINK is NOT the original story -- this is a NEW STORY about this man and I'm posting it just in case you all missed it. I find it a very interesting twist on the clearer picture and total of "the story".

http://todaynews.today.com/_news/201...cials-say?lite

What does all this have to do with Kate Middleton's morning sickness and the royal baby buzz ?????

And OMG will it be a boy or a girl ?

And OMG what will it's name be ?


Will you guys get focused on the really important stuff !

(maybe I should turn off the tv ...)


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Jim

I'm definitely middle class and don't see any action that will help middle class America. I see a lot of smoke being blown up naïve orifices. Decent wages and living conditions start with jobs. Jobs start with embracing small businesses with incentive programs to create jobs.

I see middle-American's getting back-doored with hidden taxes in the form a rate increases from the over-staffed over-paid bureaucracies. Small businesses that aren't unionized will continue to be handicapped with unrealistic sub-contractor compliance regulations. Health care costs for small business and individuals packaged with poor service quality will continue to escalate.

Our children are 11 & 14 and while our schools are better than average, they don't generate a good education. They teach mediocrity, entitlement, and poor fundamental manners (behavior/attire/responsibility/etc.)

They learn that respect is not earned it's an entitlement. They learn that an 8 month 32 hour 5 day work week is too much. They learn how to supplement holiday leave with fictional days off. They learn that Mac is superior to the PC platform. They learn how to solicit for donations. They learn that obese is the norm. They lean that pizza, nacho's, and soda are good nutrition. The learn that art and music are more important than shop and home economics. They learn that being reprimanded for unacceptable behavior is not that bad. They learn that trying to achieve at higher levels than others is frowned upon. They learn that even if you don't win you still get a trophy and accolades. They learn the American Flag and National Anthem are offensive to others.

They also learn at lunch every day that they are of an ethnicity that isn't worthy of accolades and special accommodations.......and they don't have the right to find it offensive.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-H...HgVZkTL-XL.jpg

:rolleyes:

What needs to be also fixed is they collect welfare all year long, then at the end of the year they get a damn tax return. How can you get a tax return when the income you've made came from welfare? That is just wrong.

Well said Sieg
:thumbsup:

Dan

I live in California, and soon you will see what the super majority does to what is left of the state.

They were going to ask the people about raising taxes...Just wait.They don't have to now..It will be all closed door decisions...They are going to gut Prop. 13.. Why ? To pay for the ballooning budget they cannot afford..For a bullet Train to nowhere...To fund education ? Sure the Professors at the Universities for one. The 300,000 dollar speaking fees for ONE speech at a University...And who gets gutted by repealing Prop 13 ? The old couple living in their home for 30 years living on Social Security...You know, the one's who pay on a 80K home value that will now go up to 400K value just to support failed and outrageous policies...Ya, that sounds moral and compassionate all right. The elderly will pay and some will lose their homes.

And the last 4 years..2 with a full Democratic power ? Paybacks like Solyndra, Nancy Pelosi's Brother in law's Solar company in Nevada that would have to sell a Kilowatt at an outrageous price just to break even, and other "paybacks" to donors that got Obama elected...All before considering working on Jobs and the economy...No transparency...

Then in 2006, Obama says that raising the debt ceiling is UnAmerican and shows that the leader is not doing his job, yet he wants, in 2013, to bypass Congress and to raise the debt ceiling..Not to mention the 16 plus trillion dollar debt that the Interest alone will crush the nation..So now it is not Unamerican ? Which is it, he cannot have both.

And the middle class ? First they want to tax the 1%...Suddenly it became the 2%...I am just waiting for it to be the 10%, and it will, don't fool yourself, it will fall onto the middle class eventually..

Ya, I don't support those policies because I live in a state that is a micro version of things to come...And the nation will follow suit with the policies of California...And with a Super Majority, The democrats will own the bailout of California that they will be asking for from the feds..Because eventually there will be not enough people to bleed dry...

P.S. We have all been adults about this thread, and let's keep it that way.

It is good to have the discussion, but as long as we moderate ourselves, the site moderators won't have to ..:cheers: :lateral:

Here's the problem with LAWS.... they tend to be too broad - and all encompassing.

PROP 13 was meant to protect against what you're saying.... the problem is - like rent controlled apartments etc - and SS - and Medicare/Medicaid et al -- is that there aren't the proper selections and controls in place to protect/help those that the law intended to -- while limiting the "help" to those that don't need it. People will ALWAYS take advantage of anything "FREE". We all know there is no real "FREE" -- there is no "FREE" healthcare -- it's free to someone but costs someone else...

Here's where I'm TOTALLY democratic -- I think the elderly and the poor - and the incapable should get MORE help..... and those that can afford to forego such help should. A millionaire living in a house for 25 years shouldn't get a friggin' property tax break.... he shouldn't get SS or Medicare either...

BUT until you fix crap like that -- the REPUBLICAN in me says STOP SPENDING. When you put limits on things -- THEN we'll actually have to figure out a budget etc that does what it's SUPPOSE TO DO. Then everyone will be better off. :cheers:

BUT I HATE the "democratic" version of everyone gets something for nothing - don't cut anything - just spend spend spend and screw the rich idiots (that EMPLOY the democrats).

I'M GIVING THIS POST A STANDING OVATION!


Why have we become the SILENT MAJORITY???

Nail..... Head..... You HIT it!!!
Don't forget how immensely important sports is as well!! :hail:

Maybe we just narrow the discussion a bit and take it point by point: Obama wants to continue the Bush tax cuts for everyone making less that $250,000/year. Does anyone here object to that?

NOPE! Not as long as it comes with SPENDING CUTS. And that's the bargaining chip. Higher taxes are FINE IF they come with entitlement cuts.

Obviously that's where the two idiot sides need to get their shiat together.

As stated earlier -- NOT entitlement cuts that hurt the people that need them.

REAL spending cuts. Not Washingtons "spending cuts". Cuts to what you're actually spending today, not cuts to future growth that still mean we're spending more tomorrow than today, we just don't increase it as much. :rolleyes:

Mike, I'm for giving your side everything they want that's constitutional. Let's find out if the Dems/Obamas vision to fix the economy will work. Best case, it works which benefits everyone and we all learn something. Worst case, the economy crashes, and again we learn something. Just make sure that everyone knows who's plan is being followed so there's no confusion or blame put on the other side if it doesn't work as planned.

I'm not sure I understand why you want to go after "entitlements" rather than, say, bullet trains or military spending.

I'm going to retire in a few years, with some savings both after tax and tax deferred. My savings are probably enough that I might be hit by your desire for a need test on benefits that I will have paid for for over 50 years. Why is that the best way to reduce the debt?

Moreover, I don't see anything in the Republican plans that looks like a needs test, all I see is across the board cuts. Again, why is that the best way to reduce the deficit, particularly while resisting any change to the top tax rates?

Tax savings for the 1% aren't going to be immediately recirculated in the economy because the 1% simply don't need that money day-to-day; tax savings for the 99%, on the other hand, are likely going to be spent and help the economy.

I agree there's a lot of government waste but most of what people are talking about here (Solyndra, Obama phones, Medicare disability payments) is down in the budgetary noise. If you want to reduce the deficit, increase taxes, reduce military spending and invest in this country (decent education, infrastructure and, yes, alternative energy), so we can increase GDP and, as a result, the taxable base.

‘Invest’ in 'decent' Education ???

I don’t see how continuing to pour more and more money into the education system will in any way fix the actual problem(s). Check around and see how much of every tax dollar heads to education from your county, state and national taxes – and everyone still says our education system is terrible. I don’t see how that’s possible unless the money isn’t spent correctly – and a lot isn’t.

How has the curriculum for K-12 changed that much over the years? Science and technology yes – but the basics haven’t changed that much - Reading/Writing, Math, Chemistry, Physics, History…

And now we’re talking about how every kid has the right to a college education – read that as free by the way… Not sure who gets to pay for that.

Root Cause: These days we refuse to look at the actual causes of problems and seek to fix those because everyone is so entrenched in their ‘sides’ positions and theology and fight to maintain ‘their’ ground. There is no low hanging fruit anymore, very few easy decisions. There are big, difficult decisions that need to be made and put into effect – but the country is so divided I really don’t see much progress being made in any direction.

I can agree with all the last few posts to a degree...Jody I think that trying something and seeing where it goes is good but being that the media are liars we will never know who to blame if things don't work..No one wants to take the blame.they want the credit if it goes right, and they shift the blame if it goes wrong..

I can agree with alternative energy to a point...It is a great addition to the grid...It is not the answer to energy problems..I spent 10 years in Solar...

And lastly it is always my way or the highway when it comes to politicians ...In taxes, spending, alternative energy, ect...

A moderate approach that is best for the nation would be the answer, but both sides believe it is my way or else...Spending cuts and taxes would be a good choice ,it is just finding the mix.

Adding alternative energy to the grid would be great, but don't try to paint Oil as evil and that it needs to be replaced.. It is here to stay..Adding nat gas to the trucking industry and adding green energy to the grid would be a start.

Same with any policy. :cheers:

I have a friend that worked in the local High School as a Teacher. The school paid for his/her Masters and when he/she graduated they automatically received a $25,000.00 increase in salary. This increase put his/her salary in the 6 figure mark which really seems high for a High School teacher.

I'm not saying that he/she didn't deserve the salary but if you take a school that has over 100 teachers in it and you add up all of the big dollar salary's and the fact that we also pay for the pension & continued education.

Eventually we are all going to be broke paying property taxes and income taxes.

[QUOTE=Garage Dog 65;449905]‘Invest’ in 'decent' Education ???

I don’t see how continuing to pour more and more money into the education system will in any way fix the actual problem(s)./QUOTE]



I cut the quote short -- because this first statement is enough.


From my Sister in Law whom happens to be a teacher.

There are only so many hours in a class day. Since the 60's we have added all manor of courses to teach -- but not a single increase in class hours or days to the school year.

A day is now divided into about 8 or 9 subjects - including breaks, lunch and assemblies etc. Add to this the number of increased days off for 'teacher workshops' etc. A classroom day used to be MATH, WRITING, READING, SOCIAL STUDIES, AND ENGLISH. You actually had enough time to teach these basic subjects. They then added Sex Ed - Language - Music - Art - Science - Physical Ed.

You know -- it makes sense to me.... You just can't spend enough time TEACHING basics let alone all the "other stuff" that we used to do AFTER SCHOOL.

I totally disagree with this statement. There is NOTHING more important to the future of this country than EDUCATION. We're getting beat world wide because of other countries turning out more and better engineers - scientists - programmers etc. I live in BELLEVUE the home of Microsoft - Amazon - etc -- and this place looks like a friggin' foreign country! It's because these companies (claim) that they can't hire enough people otherwise! That's SAD....

What's WRONG -- is that we love it when a football player gets 50 million a year (the fact that he can't speak english bothers me since he supposedly graduated college!) .... but educators, fireman, policeman and schools are looked at as the first place to cut the budget.

SO here's the deal. If you make $500 a week -- you'll spend $500 a week - if I give you $600 a week you'll spend that and if I gave you $700 a week you'd spend that. You'd keep spending as long as the money keeps pouring in. You wouldn't stop and take a look at your "budget" until someone came and said -- HEY! You're spending too much and now you're only going to get $600 a week. How you'd cut your spending is a problem for you. After all.... you NEED that new car.... and you NEED that big azz TV... What people are TRYING to say is that until you get REAL and start to really look at and revise these programs and reel them in to do their intended use -- we have a problem with that! But NOBODY is going to take a real look at this unless there's some feet to the fire and that will take some CUTTING.

I don't know ANYONE that wants to see these programs cut out - or cut so that people get harmed... But what needs to be done is that they need to be constrained enough that someone cuts the crap out! AND if you don't think there's a HUGE amount of crap --- then there's no point on which we can agree.

I don't support his "idea for America" that's for sure. Not one iota.
As far as the spending cuts, I want to believe that it will stop, but that will never happen now. There is some much fake money out there right now, it's sickening.

We spend way too much money for such a small return on investment. (If public education were run like a business - most of the leaders and staff would get canned)

How can other countries that do turn out these great engineers, doctors and scientists do it at a fraction of the cost that our system does? I doubt it's because their teachers are raking in massive salaries.

We focus on the wrong stuff. It's not that I don't believe education is one of the most important fuels for our country/economy to be competitive - it's that we jack up the dollars spent every year for education without even a reasonable increase in how the system and the student performs. Every year the politicians run on the goal of increasing education spending and seldom to never talk about devising ways to ensure the system’s performance improves and accountability for the dollars spent.

Basically the fundamental problem with government when it gets away from the 5 or 6 things they should work on (defense, borders, etc…) – and get themselves into areas like Education where they perform poorly at best.

It is EXACTLY this sort of thinking that has gotten the US into the mess it is in. Nothing in the way of spending seems to be "important enough" to look at. It's ONLY 3 billion for this -- or ONLY 100 billion for that... nothing really very important.


I ask you --- is this the way you run your budget? Nothing ever gets a look -- every dime going out is absolutely necessary? You never try to revisit any expense to see if there are some savings to be had?

Now -- if you tell me that you can't cut your house payment - you can't possibly cut your TWO or THREE car payments - you can't do without electricity and water or dinner out ONLY one night a week... I might understand...

...BUT you're coming to me and asking me to pay for those items aren't you? And since I don't pay enough - you're okay with that 'cause you'll just borrow it (at my expense) from someone else... and then while you're at it -- what the hell -- going out 2 nights a week just isn't that big of an extra expense - so why not. And when you fail at controlling your expenses -- you should have no conscience telling me that I owe you more...Why? Because I have extra and you pissed yours all away.

WOW.... is all I have to say about that way of thinking. :thumbsup:

Totally agree....


Your government is here to help you!


:faint: :rofl: