I should also mention that using Ron Sutton's post run data collection practices has brought awareness to another issue I have with the car that needs to be addressed. Can anyone else pick out the issue?

Man that does look like a fun course! Glad to hear your changes are working. Thanks for the insight too, I appreciate you sharing the experience.

Quick question on tire pressures- My 275 NT555s on 9.5" wheels seem to like 41 F, 40 R lbs of pressure. I've tried them at lower pressures but the car feels a lot more loose. You've had 3 different tires on this car, the NT555s, the Hoosiers, and now the Falkens. Did you see a big range of pressures between the street, race, and now street/race tires?

Oh yeah, it seems they all like something different. I've been all over the board trying to figure out what it likes.

It is not until you are poking a pyrometer into the treads, outside middle and inside of the tire directly after a run that you really learn what is going on though. The goal is even temps across the tire as you come off the track...this is how you know you have the tire pressures correct.

Thanks Lance. I've been eyeballing a pyrometer from Speedway motors, definitely on the need to get list. :)

Guessing what else is needing tuning-

Right side tires are working harder and running hotter. More right turns than left? Left tires unloading in right hand turns?

Right rear tire isn't getting full contact and is heating the outside more than the inside?

Rear brakes are getting hotter than front. Brake bias is off?

:hapdance: finally welcome to the dark side....we have cookies

More left turns that right turns attributed to this, is normal.


Probably because I was leaning on the right rear pretty hard in the last turn off the course, maybe some axle flange flex?

Bingo...

I thought it was an anomaly when it first showed at NCM couple weeks ago, attributed it to glazed over front pads and dust shields on the rear. With brand new pads all around and it showed it's ugly head again...it is a pattern.

I think I know what it is, just haven't decided on the cure yet. I still run the factory brake proportioning valve which holds a little pressure on the rear brakes after the pedal is released. Apparently it's the reason why I have no complaints about pad knock back with my rear discs like everyone else not running a floater complains about.

It obviously has other drawbacks though...

I've been running it like that since I put the 9" in 5 years ago, I've just never had my post run data collection this refined to nail it down like I did last couple of events.

Cookies? did somebody say cookies... :excited:

I spent the day yesterday autocrossing with the Gateway Autox group...and by the day...I mean the whole damn day!! It was sort of the tale of two tracks, the first 8 runs in the morning session were on a rain soaked, standing water everywhere, type of surface and the second set of 8 runs (yes, 16 runs total in one day!!) were on a somewhat dry surface.

Even with the weather, the event was fantastic, well worth the 4 hour drive to attend. Huge thanks to the Luebcke family for hosting me the night before and keeping me nourished and refreshed throughout the day. Really enjoyed racing and just hanging out with you all, have to do it again soon. It was also good to see the rest of the KC group that came over to race, Frank, Georgia and Keith and to meet up with some STL friends like Dan and Eric. You all know it's your turn to come to KC for an event now right?

Here's the tale of two runs, first is my second run in the rain where I was still trying to figure out where the grip was...and where it wasn't and the second run was my fastest of the day in the dry. What a fun course...really enjoyed running on it.



It is now time for some new tires...for sure...they should be here on Wednesday.

I also need to do something to back off on the rear brakes. The Ron Sutton Race Technology Stage 4 setup is working great in the slaloms and twisties letting the car carry way more speed there, but too much rear brake is making the car loose on corner entry which is holding the car back in the sharper turns. I've got a couple of quick fixes I may try, while planning a more important permanent fix for the future. It's true what they say, the more you fix, the better you make the car (and the driver), the more the little things that are still wrong show up...

Ain't that the truth! Glad you had fun Lance :cheers:

So, this picture was taken during entry into the fastest 90 degree turn on the course last Sunday.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-p...45401262_n.jpg

To me, it looks like the Ridetech MonsterBar is holding the front pretty dang flat.

This picture is taken entering the next fastest 90 degree turn. I believe my rear braking issue is showing up here as at this point in the run my pads were fully heated up and the rear brakes were making the rear axle wheel hop under braking and turn in. That might just be the driver rear tire up in the air...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-L...57962110_n.jpg

Front is still pretty flat though considering how far the pass front suspension is compressed.

This picture was taken during a high speed, off camber slalom turn.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-e...32243137_n.jpg

I can't get over how well this car slaloms now with Stage 4 installed, I'm still trying to find the limits there. It's like a completely different car now...

Looks awesome! A lot less body roll than before, just gotta keep those contact patches on the ground! ;) Lol!

Bought a set of O'Reilly's finest OEM style brakebest pads for the rear and put them in today (and also washed the car and nut-n-bolted it). On the ensuing test drive, on the 4th 60 to 20 mph hard braking try the fronts locked up well before the rears...which is what I wanted. When I came back in the shop, the front rotors were 460f and the rears were 380f.

The rear tires were also at the wear indicators and the fronts still had a tad to go to the indicators, so I swapped them as well putting the better ones on the rear.

I've got a local race tomorrow to test everything out once again before I bolt the new rubber on next week.

Today's runs... New brake pads changed the car completely...a LOT better. Now the driver has to learn it's limits once again.

Just watch this car in the slalom on the back straight, it's crazy good...

Cool picture from last Sunday, this was on my fastest run of the day on one of the early hard 90 degree turns.

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/i...56098401-4.jpg

I had a couple course workers tell me it was lifting the rear tire in that turn but I couldn't tell inside the car, no disruption in grip at all there.

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/i...56098509-4.jpg

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/i...56098702-4.jpg

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/i...56110409-4.jpg

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/i...56110874-4.jpg

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/i...56110910-4.jpg


Rest of the pics from the event here...

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/2015event9

David does a great job taking these and we all appreciate his posting them up.

I love your Monte!
 

:thumbsup:

Monte
 

Lance looks like you are leaning on
the car really hard getting everything it
will take. Cool shots

Bob

Thanks guys...it's been a fun journey for sure, and one that just keeps on going as well.

One thing I notice when looking at pictures of me in the car on track this year...is how different my seating position inside the car is.

Look at this picture from last fall, see how high in the car I am and how hunched forward my shoulders are...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-b...90377884-6.jpg

Now look at how lower and further back I am in this picture.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-k...79991775_n.jpg

My shoulders are also more relaxed and my grip on the steering wheel is more with just my fingers instead of a fist full of wheel.

I think this seating improvement is helping with my driving and just one more step in the process of becoming faster on the track.

I still haven't 4 corner weighed the car since all of the interior changes but I'm certain I moved some weight off of the front and possibly lost some overall weight with the addition of the much lighter seats and rollbar.

The car looks great, and the video looks like you're plain haulin'. Awesome! :trophy-1302:

Lance I always enjoy watching your videos. Thanks for taking the time to post these up. Car looks more solid with each outing!

Man you are HUSTLIN that thing! Very cool, and inspiring to see both it and you progressing.

Seeing your tire temp sheet led me to put a version of my own together as we move forward with tuning. I attempted to log everything between runs last weekend, but being by myself and dealing with pretty fast turnarounds between runs, I only managed to get the first one put down.

Keep up the good work!

Looks like I haven't updated this thread since the CAM East event. While there I learned some more about the setup and more importantly learned some more about how to drive it to get the most out of it.

Been to a local SCCA event as well since then and am getting better, but the driver still needs more practice to get back to being as good as the car currently is. I'm concentrating on finding ways to allow the car to carry as much speed as possible in the turns, different types of turns require different strategies and I'm still figuring all that out. Car is VERY repeatable, very stable, and pretty easy to drive letting the driver concentrate on getting better without having to worry about having to try to save the car all of the time.

I have been having an issue with the cap head screws holding the swing arms onto the centerpiece of my sway bar coming loose. Had this same issue with my old center piece and I solved it by a dab of blue locktite on them. When it came time to swap out the bar though, I liked to have never got them loose. Heat, penetrant, more heat, more penetrant and a large dose of patience let me finally get the bolts loose to do the swap. The problem is the back side of the bracket where the bolts thread into is open allowing moisture to get into the thread and rust them up. So I didn't use locktite when I put it back together this time...and have been tightening them up after every third autocross run or so or day of driving on the street.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c0...=w1378-h775-no

Today I pulled each bolt out, thoroughly cleaned the bolt and threads...then filled the backside of the threaded hole with clear RTV, put a dab of blue locktite on the bolt, then tightened down once again. The excess RTV squeezed out the back side of the bracket which I wiped off. Hopefully the RTV seals the threads from moisture preventing rust and also acts as adhesive to help the dab of blue locktite to hold the bolts tight now.

That and a good bath are my only jobs to do to get the car ready to head to the CAM Invitational and then the SCCA Nationals in Lincoln, NE next weekend. Well, that and try to be a better driver to get the most out of the car while there...

Hey Lance,
Just a thought on the bolts: not sure what size they are, but what about going to a stud and nut configuration? I'm sure ARP has something that would work. You could put red loctite on the stud then.

If those are button heads, yeah, they suck in general. Usually, they are hard to remove, plus they have a smaller hex socket than a cap screw limiting torque in the first place.

Glad to hear you get so much seat time and the car is doing awesome!

I wanted to get longer cap head bolts and nut the back side of them but clearance between the back of the bracket and the frame is pretty tight already. Didn't think about studs, but that may be the answer if they start to come loose again...I think there is room there on the outside for a nut. Thanks for the idea...

Thanks Ben, have you got to try out those new shoes on your ride yet?

Barney
 

Lance,
who's bar is it you have?? Ridetech?
It looks like a Nascar setup
I know Ron told you what to get
Saving my pennies so I can get things
going in the right direction

Cool stuff and great you are running the
hell out of the car.. good luck at the Nationals
Maier and I think his wife are going as she was
running the nasty Stagnero car both days a
few weeks back

Bob

Yeah Bob, it's a Ridetech Musclebar...but this one is not an off the shelf bar.

Their stock center piece is a 1.5" dia 0.120" wall tube, I ran that for a while, then upgraded to a 0.250" wall tube and now have a 0.375" wall tube center piece on the car.

Each upgrade was substantial and completely changed the way the car handled to the better. I am still not used to how well the car turns in now, it's very Mini Cooper like. :D

^ Yeah that... :D

Just for reference, these are the rear spring rates I ran with each front bar I've put on the car to maintain the balanced handling:

36mm F-body front sway bar - 165# rear spring
1.5" 0.120" Wall Tube Front Bar - 182# rear spring
1.5" 0.250" Wall Tube Front Bar - 200# rear spring
1.5" 0.375" Wall Tube Front Bar - 250# rear spring

I've had 600# springs on the front ever since I put the coilovers on the car.

The rear sway bar has been the 1" solid lower control arm mounted bar that I've run forever.

I'm certain every car is different and by no means say that if you put these parts on your car, it'll handle like mine...but I've raced this car a lot with each of these setups and they have all worked great for me. They just keep getting better and better as we've upped the size of the front bar (and rear springs to match).

Barney
 

Thanks guys
I am a little ways from getting the car
Lightened then I can weigh and measure things
I think a better bar the right size will help
along with the other things. Looks like you
have been fine tuning for a while

Bob

We initially thought going with the 0.250" wall tube bar was getting jiggy with it, Ron mentioned to me in passing the other day that an even bigger front bar than what is on the car now would still help it.

It's been a progression for sure, but just to be clear...the car has been neutral balanced ever since stage 1. It just keeps getting faster and faster the flatter we've gotten it to run.

Thanks for sharing! Curious, what do those front bars translate to in # rate?

What are you feeling most with the car as you make changes- faster times, easier to drive, less stress trying to keep the car in control, etc. ...? All of the above?

Right now sway bars are one of my focuses so while the car is down for some repairs and upgrades I'm taking notes. :)

Ever since we put Stage 1 of Ron's setup under this car, the car has been friendly to drive. I am not exaggerating...all of the evils the car had previously just went away.

From then on it has just been a matter of fine tuning and tweaking both shock settings and driver ability to get the car to carry maximum speed through the corners...which in turn led to faster times on the clock and higher rankings in the day's results.

Each subsequent upgrade in front bar (and rear springs) just made the car more responsive to steering input and gave it the ability to carry even more speed in all 3 phases of a turn.

We are at a point now with both driver ability and car setup that a single click on a shock or a single pound of air pressure will make a slight change one way or the other...whatever we need to carry just a bit more speed in a specific turn. There are no more large problem areas...it's all just minor tweaking to tune to a specific course...or driver preference.


At CAM East when Ryan was co-driving the car with me, his preference is a "tight" handling car. He likes to lean on the outside front tire the most, feel where it's grip level is at and drive up to that point...while I like more of a "free" feel (probably comes from driving a car that would not turn for so long).

We discussed this beforehand and also discussed where to start on the rear shock settings...knowing what it would be like and how we'd sneak up on tightening the rear rebound hopefully without going too far. We knew it would start off pretty free, and the opposite side would be once we tightened up the rear rebound too much it would start carrying the inside rear tire and upset the car that way. We adjusted 1 click into the rear shocks 1 after my first run, then 1 click after his first run...after his second run he wanted 1 more click and that got the car pretty good everywhere on the course.

By then he was putting laps in almost a second faster than me, in a car he had never driven before, with a setup like he had never driven before. After that, each of his runs were within 1 or 2 tenths of his best time. On his last run he asked me if we could lower the front tire pressures about 4 psi. He had his fast time in the books already and wanted to see if lowering the front pressures would tighten the car up enough for him to carry a bit more speed thru the large 180 at the back. His time was about the same as previous runs, he said it was a tick better in the large 180, but it felt lazier just about everywhere else on the course. On Sunday morning he didn't hesitate...we put the original tire pressures back in the car and we both set pretty fast times on our first runs that day as well.

My point for typing all of that is...I feel that anyone can adapt to driving this type of setup, it really is that easy to drive. You do not fight the car, you just have to coax it into finding the most speed you can with little tweaks here and there...both on the car and from the driver seat. The car has been like that ever since we had the F-body bar on the front...it's just a LOT faster now with the MonsterBar up under there.

So an old mechanical issue reared it's ugly head again at the SCCA Nationals. It took me a while to diagnose exactly what it was, it actually started at CAM East month or so ago. I initially thought it was the clutch posi giving up again as it seemed like the car was spinning the inside rear tire on exits from short sharper turns. The more I drove it and the more it happened, I finally figured out the clutch was slipping, not the diff.

If you listen close during these runs, on the exit of some corners you'll hear the RPMs spike up but the car doesn't move nor do the tires spin, that's the clutch slipping.



It hurt my times on the big long fast courses at Lincoln so I did not finish well in either event. The car cornered fantastic, much better than I thought it would...it just wouldn't handle down the fast straights. Time to come up with a new game plan. This clutch is a RAM rated at 500 hp I think that is just over a year old...and I'm making no where near that kind of power.

Barney
 

Lance sorry to hear the clutch was heading south on you
Not the best place if there really is one to start slipping

I have used a Centerforce clutch in both cars for many years
Firebird is 750hp at the flywheel but not a lot of time on the
new motor racing...Pantera 600 hp just got a new clutch after 10 years
of beating on the car... now I mostly track the car but smoked
it a few years back at a drag race thing we Pantera guys did
and it still lasted a couple of more years.. I am sold on them

I know most use double disc fancy this and that but the tried
and true seem to work for me.. my 2 cents

Bob

While I haven't had time to touch the car since coming home from Nationals, Dave Nutting has been busy working with it...as seen here.

http://bangshift.com/bangshiftapex/a...arving-g-body/

Thanks for the pics and article Dave, you did a great job shining up this turd!

Awesome! Congrats to you and Barney! :thumbsup:

Nice write up by Dave too. :)

GO Barney GO ! I wish I could get a ride in the SS.:flag2: