66, my dad always said "its not what you make, its what you keep". Just take a good look at your and your wifes spending habits and analyze it. Simple. Then a little discipline, and bingo, you'll be on your way. You have 20 years left of working, I too am 47 and am very grateful for what i do have. I look at this as the third quarter of our career, and the clock is ticking. Just start, start somewhere. This is a GREAT thread, one of the best of all time IMO. Gregs advice is simple and too the point, he doesnt have to do this, he does cause he wants us to do better for our quality of life and families. Plus, were all car guys here so we help each other out. Start reading from page 1, and dont be afraid to ask questions. Look at reading the first 200 pages as a homework assignment that will benefit your bride and offspring, not now but later they will reap the rewards........Mike

Here's the real issue with budgets…


It doesn't work for Congress, and it doesn't work for individuals. Life gets in the way.


It's why on a monthly basis = your net costs need to be WAY lower than your net income. Savings have to be in buckets --- Emergency (such as a blown tire or collision deductible) -- Rainy day (laid off etc - so 6 months of Net spending) -- Retirement (which is NOT used for Emergency or Rainy days).

The numbers vary because each individual has individual lifestyle needs and income levels. My personal cash level is half a million bucks - less than that and I become uncomfortable. Someone else's might be two thousand.

People have to make CHOICES…. they can spend every dime NOW… and have not a clue how they're going to live later… or they can make a plan and stick to it and live in retirement. IT'S A BALANCE…. NOW vs LATER… if you want later to suck -- then spend now and don't bother to do a thing for later. Later is a long time away -- oh -- but it also lasts a long time… but cable TV is now and I really like football on Sundays so I "need it" now. Okay - but don't plan to watch cable TV later when you have everyday to sit on your butt with nothing to do because you can't afford to do anything.

As mentioned, 66, You need to analyze where every dollar is spent. Also, each month you should be sitting down with the spousal unit and spending each dollar on paper.

Check out Dave Ramsey's "Total Money Makeover" book, and check into a local "Financial Peace University" class. They'll help you "get a grip" on things. Also, check out the book "Richest Man in Babylon". Has some good "methods" just like Ramsey's. Pay yourself first, live on whats left. Otherwise, you'll always be on step behind.

I'm willing to bet there's plenty to save there in that $90k/yr salary. But you've got to know the difference between a "need" and a "want'. What's important vs what is a luxury. And learn to tell the man in the mirror NO. If there isnt enough to save on that 90k, then as Greg mentioned, you're likely living beyond your means (house too big/too expensive, cars financed that are outside your means, toys, etc).

First thing you gotta do is recognize there's a problem. Then set goals and a plan to over come it.

I agree with these guys. Set up a spreadsheet with your hard costs and review your last 3 bank statements thoroughly to see where the rest of it is going. I guarantee you can whittle things down. Once you make changes, update your spreadsheet and watch your discretionary income grow. I have mine set up to show my monthly discretionary income after every single expense. I am also a Dave Ramsey fan and have car replacement, clothes, etc. in my spreadsheet.

In addition, I calculate my monthly net worth gain. I do this through real estate principal reduction, rental income, retirement contribution, stocks, and additional savings. I put in depreciation for cars.

Get your Wife and family on board. That is a huge variable with a single income household. How about some type of reward for saving X every so often?

Good luck, it will take some effort and hard work to change things but once they are in effect you will benefit greatly every day.

Year end is coming up and coming up FAST….


I see several things coming together here to cause the market some angst…


Portfolio rebalancing is something everyone does at the end of the year… what that means is - the big holders will take some gains off the table - they don't sell out -- but they may take some off the top of their biggest winners…

Conversely - they'll balance that "tax wise" by selling some losers… that way you come in at neutral as far as gains and losses are concerned.

So what? Well -- everyone is "into" the same big winners -- so when you have some big holders selling --- then that takes the prices down… and if they're also selling the losers - that makes your losers go down even more. It's somewhat self fulfilling scenario.

NOW --- if you have RISING interest rates -- then the old saying - "when interest rates are high stocks will die" comes into play. IF interest rates are rising - or are seen to be in a rising mode - then the big holders will start to trim interest rate sensitive stocks -- and suddenly your 3% dividend payer doesn't look so hot -- which it was when rates were at 1 or less percent -- and now you can buy a 10 year treasury (tax free) that's paying 3%…. So you have that going on….


So the bad news COULD BE that we have a declining market through the year end… but much of that depends on the economy coming in with some good numbers -- which is GOOD for the stock market because EARNINGS are the real drivers of stock prices…

What's that all mean to us?? Not a hell of a lot. BIG TRADERS or BIG HOLDERS do things differently than you and I. We don't have customers that are demanding we "beat the market" -- we're just investors. Long term investors… we're not on the hot seat to produce on December 31st…. we're looking at December 31st - 15 or 20 or even 30 years down the road.

Yes -- I have sold some shares with losses and I've added some shares with that cash -- and yes I try to be somewhat tax neutral IF -- BIG IF -- I think I have some stocks that just need to be gone or whatever (I actually held too much "Oil" patch stocks -- with CVX - BPT - NTI - KMP -- so have trimmed a couple). My typical positions approach or exceed 1MM per holding -- so when you add them up -- it's worth it for me to balance out a bit. But most aren't in this position ---- and there's no point in selling a holding if you have less than 10K in it! What you want to see is that 10K doubling over the next 10 years to 20K --- ya can't do that if you're scooping off every time you have a "gain".

Look to ADD to your positions -- not sell them out -- if the fundamentals of the company are the same as when you bought it. Put that bonus check to work so that the $1500 becomes 3000…. or piss away $500 of it and save the grand or whatever.

Don't get distracted by all the "noise". If you get nervous -- go back and look at those longer term charts… Sometimes you just have to have faith. Faith in history - faith in the company - faith in the dividend and the compounding.

I was just about to type up that question... on the basis of what should us "small" investors do when we have gains (for example, my $1k purchase last year is sitting at $1.5k with a 50% gain. Do we scoop off the top and redistribute the $500 house money elsewhere, or let it ride).

Looks like you basically answered my question. Let it ride until its a "bigger stake". (or if there is another reason to sell).

But I just wanted to point that out to anyone else that was in the same boat of "what should i do...".

Here's what happens when you sell your winners…. or sell part of your winners… You have to figure out what else to buy with that money --- and then you're getting less dividend which has a large impact on your compounding.

The GOAL here is to have the dividend buying ever more shares --- averaging in automatically --- and you get some upside capital growth along with it.

If you're constantly taking the paper gains off the table - you miss out on the compounding affect.

Now -- if you have 10K in ONE name ---- which means you should have 100K or more invested -- and you have a gain like the percentages you mentioned -- then to skim off 5K and add another name in the portfolio "might" be worth it. But you always have to be mindful of the compounding…

Now again -- I live off my gains and dividends -- I don't need (yes everyone really needs it) compounding… I need (want) the cash to spend… so I'm always skimming or trimming - or transferring the dividend (I do not reinvest it)… but I'm already retired and that's how I live.

What you're seeing -- which is a beautiful thing - is that you now have a 50% increase in capital -- in just one name!! Shortly it could be 200% or 300% -- and that's how this is ALL SUPPOSED TO WORK!! But it won't get there if you keep selling.

Let those winners ride --- and new money should go to new names -- because the more names you have the more likely you are to pick a few winners… and before long -- those winner are contributing MORE to your retirement plan than you are! Now that's a winning situation! That's what we're after..

Great follow up. Thanks for the detailed explanation. When you put it like that, its obvious. LOL.

I kinda knew that. Thus the reason I never did anything about it. But i wasn't confident that was the right answer.

Next year I should be "back in business" investing. Bought a house at the beginning of this year and it wiped me out. But, my emergency fund is almost done, and then i can start parkin money for retirement and savings (to invest outside of retirement accounts - which i haven't done yet. Thats a whole nother ball game due to the tax aspect that I haven't even started yet). And hopefully with the house this year, I can get something back on taxes to dump in the Roth too. lol

As long as we're on "year end" thoughts…. Here's a "notion" that always kills me when I hear it.


A guy is looking over his portfolio -- he has new money to put to work. He AVOIDS buying the stocks that have gone UP…. Why? Because they've gone up!


Really??

So you're unhappy because they did what you want them to do?????? Explain that to me please…


I had said that I bought 500 shares of Twitter (TWTR) and that I would possibly increase this stake to 1000 total shares. I just bought the other 500 this morning. Why now? BECAUSE THEY'VE DONE WHAT I WANTED THEM TO DO --- THEY'VE GONE UP.


If you go back and look at the long term (3 plus years) charts -- You WANT them higher on the right than the left side! So if you use that logic -- then there's no way you're not going to pay more for the new shares than you did the old. (Averaging DOWN is a different story! Not to be confused with just building a position).


If you owned 100 at $40 a share -- and you pay $45 for the 100 new shares -- you still own shares at below the current market trade price. You now own 200 shares at $42.50 and the stock is trading at $45 What's wrong with that??

Absolutely. Never be afraid to buy a stock that has gone up unless it would skew the % of your portfolio in that stock. Call it what you want - dollar cost averaging, averaging in, nibbling - whatever makes you happy - but it is one of the fundamentals of being a successful investor!

I'm sure this was probably covered earlier in the thread, but maybe things have changed since then...and it's something I'm looking at now so why not ask?

Who are you all mostly using for investment accounts these days?

I grew up in the investing world where you either paid hefty commissions on every equity trade or you paid a management fee quarterly to get the free trades. These days with Etrade, TD Ameritrade, and others doing free or very low cost trades...who is the hot ticket to use?

To me, if there were several houses that offered basically the same account fee structure, I'd be interested in the one that has the best\easiest to use research tools built into the online account.

I use ShareBuilder. I got free $ for signing up with my Costco account. Their Roth IRA accounts are free (ie. no monthly/yearly costs). Same with a regular account. Plus i get Market/Limit Trades at like $5.95. But if i "auto-invest", it will make the Market trade on tuesday for only $2. When i started, i was only doing a hundred bucks here, a hundred there, so $6 was nearly a 6% hit on my newly purchase stock. Thus the happiness for the $2 entry fee. But now i've learned to stick to at least $1k purchases to make it worthwhile.

I also have a Schwab Account. Mentioned earlier in this thread for its great research tools. But i dont have anything invested into that account. I opened it solely (at this point) for research.

I have accounts that are pro managed -- and accounts (the one I use here for expamles and showing off) at Schwab… and Fidelity.


I like Schwab because it costs me nothing - has great tools - is easy to use - and I have a branch right down the street if I need a check or to deposit a check. They also have good mobile tools.

One thing I would NEVER do is go with an individual to manage anything I have… the temptation is just too great and the stories are on TV every day… So stick with a commercial brokerage for all your transactions.

Thanks everyone... I forgot about Schwab, they were one of the first low cost investment accounts to come along if I remember correctly.

I've got all of my current accounts with Merrill. When I was active in the market, I had my larger accounts in the "Unlimited Activity" plan which worked out pretty well. I dropped out of it when I went to cash.

If I start up again, I'd like to do it on my own mainly with stocks and ETFs so I need to find a way to make trades on the cheap. That ain't happening with a Merrill Account these days without being in one of their management plans.

Vanguard and Fidelity for me. I started Vanguard on my own years ago. Fidelity came about through work and I've simply expanded my use of it from there.

+1 for Schwab - There website is excellent and their mobile app is very good as well.

Bitcoin -- again....
 

So with the latest news regarding China's ban on BitCoin.. Let's revisit my "investing 102" reasons for NOT wanting to plug this type of an "investment" or put more value on it other than the gambling hype associated with this type of an investment.


By my latest count -- most on here are relative newbs to investing or are complete investing virgins. Thus the reason for so many pages devoted to breaking down investing in it's simplistic form… i.e., saving some money - putting it to work - making it work for you. Compounding over time and ending up with some real money.


Most of you are just beginning and perhaps most have a main goal of retirement some time in the not too distant future. With a goal like that - gambling isn't the best way to get to that goal.

I'm not against BitCoin one bit (pun?)! I'm really not. If a guy is 20 or 30 something - has a great job - has 100K in his retirement account - isn't in debt up to his eyeballs… and wants to play with 5 or 10K trading BitCoins… I'm fine with that. Maybe a guy can score big and double or triple or quadruple his money and his 5 becomes 20! AWESOME! But what I think is closer to the "Investing 102" reader is that most are not there YET. And what I've spent an awful lot of time on in this thread is to try to get folks to recognize the difference between INVESTING and GAMBLING. To most - gambling means taking some pocket money and going to a casino for the night - if they win big - they buy dinner and have some fun. Sadly - most find out that they don't build these big casinos on the winners of the world. They're built with the losers money. The winners are for show - to suck the life out of the losers.

BitCoin saw a drop on Friday of 20% or more - 30% in some markets. Why? Because the Chinese government banned it. BOOM! 20 or 30% of your "investment" just got blown away. THAT IS WHAT I'M AGAINST! I'm not against the fact that you might get lucky and ride this bad boy to the top.

Here's what happens to many (most) investments like this….it can be flipping houses - in the late 90's it was dot.bomb investing… in Holland years ago it was Tulips… As the "winners" win -- more and more people decide it's time for them to pile on -- driving the price up -- which is a self-fulfilling vacuum sucking more people in driving the price higher - UNTIL - the bottom drops out. Do some folks make a killing?? Hell yes! Do most lose? Yep. The problem is that the only reason the price is going up - is because someone paid more than the last guy did… and as long as that's sustainable - everyone is good… but the minute the selling starts -- people can't get out fast enough. THE REASON FOR THAT is because nobody really wants to own the stuff - they just want the price to go up over what they paid! Thus the gambling part! When you buy - you're just gambling (betting/hoping) that tomorrow the price will be higher. You really own nothing. There's not a nickel of income produced. It's simply that MAYBE the price will go up.

A 20 or 30% overnight price drop is gut wrenching to most folks. Yeah it might go back up - THIS TIME - and when it does - it'll suck some more people in… but when is it the end? Who knows!

Most folks go to the casino and at some point they have a "gain"…. but by the end of the night - most have put all the gain back, including the cash they started with…

When (WIN?) to buy
 

The questions repeated often in this thread is "win should I buy"? We're talking about people that want to try to pay .50 or 1.00 per share lower than current prices. OR maybe wait for that big 10% drop in the overall market. When you add in the fact that the purchase might be for 50 or 100 shares or less… and you do the math… we're not talking about a huge savings IF they get lucky waiting for the right time to get in. If during their wait, they miss a dividend payment - of .35 a share… we're talking about even less of a "score" by waiting for the best price.

Let's take this week… the market was dripping it's way down… so if a guy was waiting to buy he watches that and thinks -- ah ha! I'm brilliant! Then BOOM Friday we go up 200 points! Now they're all in a panic having "missed" the chance. Don't be that guy.

Steady wins this race… and it's not about the dollar or even two dollars per share price you're going to "make" buying low. That difference pales in comparison to the compounding over time. You're not going to be able to retire next week because you scammed the market for a buck a share this week. Put your money to work whenever you have the amount saved that you want to invest. Over TIME this will average your cost. 20 years from now you'll look back and what you'll see is a brilliant investor that just booked his trip to Hawaii… and paid for it with this months dividend checks. You'll never see the buck you saved by waiting to get in the market.

So remembering that when WE (I) or anyone else - mentions a particular stock in this thread -- nobody should take that as an indication to buy or sell. I use them for the investing 102 "thinking cap" --- not as a buy this or sell that.


I mentioned that I was particularly disappointed in my last couple of (INFREQUENT) McDonalds (MCD) visits… and that, in fact, I was selling my shares because I figure I'm just mister Joe Average -- and that if I'm disappointed - perhaps others are as well…

Remember that our goal is to always keep an eye on "fundamentals" and that, to me, doesn't mean I have to comb thru the annual statement looking for some foible… What that means to me is that if I own Home Depot (HD) and I stop going there because they're out of stock - or their prices aren't competitive etc -- then that should be a heads up for me. For me - that is a basic fundamental.

So with McDonalds -- I've tended to stop at a Starbucks (I own it) and get a good cup of coffee and one of their breakfast sandwiches… rather than McDonalds.

BUT --- HERE IS WHY I'M POSTING THIS….


When I check the ONE YEAR TOTAL RETURN on MCD… it's 13.5%… True we've had a strong stock market and a rising tide tends to float all boats. But that's still a pretty dang good total return for what should be a "steady eddie".

My point is -- that just because you "think" one way -- the numbers may in fact prove you wrong. So it's always wise to be diligent about your investments --- think about them --- and do just a modest amount of homework (research) to either confirm or deny your thoughts.

Sorry -- I forgot to include some info….


I had bought Starbucks (SBUX) because I like the place… and frequent their stores and buy their coffee for home brewing. Their Total Return for one year - 50.8%

I don't hold much of this - simply because of it's paltry 1.3% dividend… but remember that we have to look at TOTAL RETURN over just the dividend payout === because it's the total return that makes your money grow!!

Ho Ho Ho!

And that my friends is how a guy makes his "money for nothing"... <stolen fair and square from the song>

Yup! That was a 9% increase over last year (they actually raised it for the 9/12 Ex Div date - 10/10 pay date). Almost a 10% raise. NICE!

That made my Yeild on Cost 6.3% woohoo

I'm so proud of you guys. Shows me you're learning how to make money and what it's all about! The daily gyrations don't mean much once they start sending you cash!

The guy that wrote this piece for SeekingAlpha must be reading my "blog" here….. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Okay -- there's some gobledigook in the middle of this with some charts - I skipped over because my eyes started to lock up… then I jumped over that part and kept on reading..


The big take away --- INVEST in good companies and forget about all the noise…


LANCE -- THIS ONES FOR YOU. Because I think you fit in the permabear camp. Thus costing yourself a chance at getting rich over time.


http://seekingalpha.com/article/1891..._str_1_3&ifp=0

Perma-bear... lol... I love it. I read it, and I'm soaking it in...

Greg, I read your posts last weekend about MCD and SBUX and in particular how SBUX had a paltry dividend yet the total return was good because the stock price had grown.

I also read your posts back on 12/4 talking about year end market price fluctuations and what causes them.

Both of these scenarios in a way point to my feelings about the market pricing of stocks not really being tied to actual fundamentals or company performance, but more toward the line of supply and demand, what someone is willing to pay for said stock.

Sometimes market supply and demand affects a particular share price in a small way or for a short period, other times in a large way.

I think this is the major stumbling block for me. So many times over the years, I've done something a certain "right way" and been bit because of an outside element affecting a share price...and it has tainted my perspective.

I'm trying to deal with that now...that is why I'm participating in this thread. It's like therapy... ;)

Plus, I just received my $100 fee for each of our Roth IRA accounts. That pissed me off.

And I love hearing the other's success stories...please keep posting them up.

Your stumbling block is that you're trying to make sense of a MARKET over which you have ZERO control.


Once you understand that investing in BEST OF BREED companies --- and the dividends they pay - and that you can get - over time - the dividends and the growth…. and that market fluctuations are just that - fluctuations… you'll become a better investor. HOWEVER -- you can NOT use trader mentality and be an investor. A trader is constantly seeking confirmation for their belief in whether or not the market is going "their way" (because they're betting - they're not INVESTING).

That is a very astute observation Greg, I like the way you put that.

The whole thread is about trying to make sense, and to get people to focus less on the noise and more on the long run. Long run is different than buy it and forget it… be vigilant… but vigilant with a longer term view rather than today - or next month.

When you INVEST in the very best companies --- it starts to take the fear away. I'm not worried about WalMart going out of business… or HomeDepot.. or Coke… or McDonalds. I AM fearful of my investment in FaceBook or Twitter… I don't know what that market looks like next year or the year after that. So I might want to put some play money in something like that - but FIRST I need to have trust in my core investments. When I've established that core -- the Altria type investments --- and those are adding to my savings with their dividend payments -- then I can seek a little higher return from some other more risky assets… Not big risks - but with BALANCE… to raise my overall return. Personally - I place an amount in a British Petroleum Prudhoe Bay Trust (BPT) that pays almost 12% currently… but it's OIL being pumped out of the ground… and they say there's plenty of it… however… it's still risky in my mind - because what if the pipe breaks or the pumps quit or they run out sooner than thought…. But I'm pretty secure with it. If you get my point. An 11.71% dividend raises my cash flow up pretty nicely -- with still sleeping well at night.

Now --- the caveat here - is that this is NOT a stock picking thread -- for that we need to do our own research --- pick our own stocks --- so that we know what and WHY we own them. I'm just tossing out a mindset and a way of thinking about investing. Not showing you or anyone else WHAT they should own. You might love Verizon and I love AT&T…. if you buy AT&T because I do -- that's not good enough --- because the first time AT&T hiccups --- you'll be swearing and kicking the dog and looking for an excuse to dump that POS stock. That's why I say to pick your own -- but pick your own based on the basic premise that you're going to INVEST -- and invest in GREAT COMPANIES rather than trying to hit the jackpot by next week.

People tend to buy when the market is hot and the first time it goes down they're selling (buy high sell low) and THAT is how people loose their asses. They wouldn't do that if they'd just invest in stuff they can trust - good market or bad -- they know they'll be okay.

Well I started step 1 this week. I opened an IRA and a ROTH at Schwab. I have to wait until my 401ks are rolled to the new accounts before I can join you guys on the road to retirement not living in a cardboard box.

AWESOME!!!!!!!

Congrats! Just always make sure any retirement accounts get transferred from institution to institution through wire transfer or check made out to the next institution. NEVER have the money come into your hands when switching accounts. You'll get hit with taxes regardless of intent or how long it's in your hands.

Awesome! Welcome to the crew gearheads78!

Yea I made sure. One account will be a direct wire transfer the other will be a check sent from Vangaurd to Schawab.

Lance ---


I - once again - am not pitching any stocks… I don't care what people choose to buy.. I just use stocks to make a point -- or for 'teaching' -- which in this case is what I'm trying to do for you.

Go to Google Finance - or some other website and pull up a 3 year chart of Altria (MO)…

What I want you to see is that this is a BORING STOCK --- it's Terbacky and booze… People smoke and drink - it's a sin stock. I don't care about that - I just want to make a living off them…

What I want you to SEE is that in 2011 they paid you .38 a share PER QUARTER to own the shares -- at the time (beginning of 2011) the share price was $25…. Today the share price is $38.10 -- but more importantly - without your having to lift a single finger -- they are now paying .48 per share per quarter.

This is a BORING STOCK -- the grocery store clerk is not talking about how they made a gazillion dollars last year trading it. Your friends aren't talking about it. But if you'd have bought it in January 2011 -- and held it -- your TOTAL RETURN would be 83%

Oh sure -- the guy that was lucky enough to have bought Netflix at the low - would have 300% this year.. but what are the odds that you would have been so lucky? I'll take that rising cash flow -- and the increase in my capital -- and sleep real tight. There's a ton of stocks out there that have done this… this is just one that I own (I own 25,000 shares of it…) and is pretty "typical" of the style/type of investing that I'm talking about as a core holding. People are going to continue to drink and smoke… can't stop that. Might as well make some money off of 'em. :thumbsup:

Greg,

Just for giggles, I quickly looked back at Altria's 14 year history...and I'm seeing weird results. On yahoo finance, it shows the last split was April 97 3:1 and the share price at time after the split was somewhere around $40.00 (can't get the chart to zoom in for exact price on a date).

Google finance shows the share price was in the $10 range then in Feb 2003 where it jumped up to $37.62. I think the splits are screwed up on that chart.

The yahoo chart of Altria from 1997 to 2013 pretty much mimics my investing history of returns.

Lets say I had 1000 shares of Altria a $35-40 stock in 1997, it looks like MO paid anywhere from $1.00 to $3.00 a share per year during that 14 year period (more during the good times, much less during the bad times).

Two different ways to look at that period, if reinvesting or if taking the money to live off of.

If reinvesting, when it was paying $3.00 per share, you were buying back in at close to $80.00 a share, so you ended up with 37 more shares per year. In the $1.00 per year years, it looked to be about about the same, $1000 at $30 bought you 30 some shares a year. (all VERY rough numbers here mind you).

So for 14 years you added almost 500 shares...at todays $37 = about $18,000 return on $40,000 investment over 14 years... That's about 3% a year is it not? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm doing this very rough and very fast.

If you just took the dividend to live off of, in the beginning you made around $1200 a year, in the 2000s it went from $2000-3000 a year, then in 2008 the dividend shrunk back to around $1200 a year, today it would be back to $2000 a year. Figuring the ROI on this method is much more involved and I have to get to work so don't have time for it right now.

I'm not doing this to be pro or con Altria or anything else...this is just how I look at things. If any calculation I did here was wrong, please correct me. I'm not swearing any of it to be gospel as I did it very quickly (and I'm still not sure I trust the numbers as the two charts are very wonky against each other). Still pretty curious results to me though.

On one hand, 3% a year for that period ain't all that bad (if I figured it correctly). As a comparison I did a little over 4% over the same period with my total portfolio. (edit...that isn't an exact comparison as I cashed out in 2011 with a 4+ % ROI when MO was trading at around $26.00 per share) But still nowhere near the 10% a year that some like to use as a benchmark for market investing returns.

I know I know, figures lie and liars figure... ;) wish I had more time to spend on this exercise but I must get to work at my day job to earn my paycheck. You all are gaining on me, and drawing me back in...but maybe an exercise like this will at least help you understand why I still feel a bit tainted by the market. My time in the market was just real REAL bad timing in the grand scheme of things.

If someone corrects my findings above and shines a better light on MO, well...we'll just see. ;)

Altria (MO) split off Philip Morris (PM)… in 2008 When you take part of your company and split it off -- the value of the split off is shown in the stock price.


You REALLY need to get over all the analytics --- and learn what's important to making money and analysis never made anyone a dime. I'm really serious here .

What part of TOTAL RETURN don't you understand??

Just using Altria (MO) one year is 19% -- three year is 84% - five year is 240%


Do you really need any more analysis than doubling your money in THREE years or understanding a 240% total return in five??

Lance -- While you're busy calculating why you SHOULD NOT be investing -- I'll be out spending the $12,000 dividend check from MO I get in January.

Well that explains part of the huge share price drop in 2008





Hey, you are the one that told me to look at the charts, I just chose a different time period than you did is all. ;)

That's true -- I accept full responsibility!


Really though -- you're still doing a lot of "thinking" and detailed accounting… and it's not that complicated… only if you make it that way. What I'm trying to show you is really how SIMPLE it is if you just stick to basics… in other words - did your capital grow and are you getting paid to hold/own the shares. THAT combo needs to have a TOTAL RETURN component --- and all the rest is just plain mumbo jumbo.