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Tim ask Steve if the 4.185 will take an over bore or if it's one and done?
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Tim, I asked Steve the same thing a couple of weeks ago when I dropped off an LS3 block with him. He recommended that I go with a 4.155" bore in a dry sleeved block. 4.185" is the max you can go with a dry sleeve, and I believe 4.210" is the largest you can go with a wet sleeve. I'm going with a 4.155" bore dry sleeve for a grand total of 447ish cubes. If you really want to hit the magic "454" number and still be able to clean the cylinders up later with an over-bore, you'll have to go with the wet sleeves, which require you to run Evan's Coolant and Water Wetter. Additionally, you'll need a set of Cometic's head gaskets, etc. After my experience with wet sleeves, I wouldn't take another chance with them.
As far as piston rock, and rod angles. I wouldn't worry too much. When I took my 454LS apart there was a little bit of wear on the piston coating, but nothing terrible. I like to air on the side of caution and after looking at everything I'm still retaining my 4.125" crank with a 6.125" rod. Matt |
thanks guys!
you are correct, 4.185 dry is once and done. but luckily these arent like an iron block where its trashed. i obviously hope nothing happens, but if it does chances are it wont be in all cylinders. at that point it would be about the same price to resleeve the one cylinder vs buying a new set of rings and pistons plus the charge to bore. id really like to be safe, but at this point the 454 badge would be nice. i guess its a gamble and i'll have to decide which way to go. id still like to hear opinions. i called peterson today and talked tanks. it sounds like they agree that the stock pump isnt very good, but they still make it sound better than any wet sump pump/pan combo. he told me to call gary at ARE to discuss more and i will hopefully do that tomorrow. still deciding on whether i should pull the trigger and get it done. i also have to decide on the holley hp vs the gm e38. most builders i have talked to like the holley. many claim that a base tune supplied by holley would be all that is needed. they say that even i could tweak the small stuff with a laptop. im pretty lost at this point. a ton of money and lots of decisions. i would have thought that for this much money everything would be the best of the best. but i find myself trying to save some money on lesser parts and still being WAY over budget. the $14k 416 wegner offered me last year is sounding cheap...... |
why not run a turbocharged small block? you can get the power an reliability with out spending nearly the $14k you mentioned. hell, even supercharged for that matter.... both would get you there.
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the 14k was a complete motor with ecu, dyno and tune. theres no doubt this motor could be done cheaper. almost 1k in an oil pan and valve covers add up quick. plus, im hoping this motor is bullet proof and reliable when complete. id rather not have any headaches and i want it to start when i turn the key.
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Got back to most of your question in that message I sent you. I just saw what you were hoping to get out of your motor, and wanted to add that I don't think you'll lose any reliability with the 454LS, at least relative to a supercharged/turbo car. Everything requires careful maintenance when driven hard.
Matt |
You think it's bad now, wait until you start using it. :lol:
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thanks guys. this is not a cheap hobby. i just keep telling myself that the wife doesnt need a bigger house.
the motor plan is coming together nicely. i finally got a hold of erik at hke and i dont think theres anyone better to build this motor. just talking to him you can hear how well he knows these motors. the plan right now is still to do a 454 with afr 245 heads, super victor intake and accufab/fast 4150 tb. ill run all this with the holley hp dbc system. running the afr heads will also end up saving well over 1k. anything ls7 commands more cash. the super victor will also help the meshing of old and new technology and appearance. ive never liked the look of sb aluminum manifolds, but the spider look of the ls manifolds is insane. im also leaning towards the dry sump setup with stock ls7 pump, pan, avaid baffle and peterson tank. its still a couple hundred more than an accusump and autokraft pan but i think its worth the price. heres the only issue; will the super victor fit? my body is dropped about 3/8 and the motor is raised about 3/4". i have the various heights of manifolds written down, but they give heights from valley mounting surface to carb pad. im unsure of how these valley heights differ between sb, bb and ls (read, same height manifold different motor, does it sit higher, lower or the same). if i could figure this out i can search to see what fits with the other motors. although my motor is about 1 1/8" higher, the accufab tb is about 1 1/4" lower than a holley carb. and i hear the dominators are even taller. Tim |
going off online dimensions, it looks like the ls7 pan is going to be a tight fit. i have a little over 12" before the crossmember and it appears the ls7 sump is 11" long. im going to try and get some accurate measurements and see if this is going to work.
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i picked up half of the dry sump today. redlinemotorsports does the motion camaros and buys ls7s and changes them over to wet sump for packaging reasons. 500 bucks got me a pump, pan, front cover and windage tray. wet sump stuff would have been over 700 for the same.
pump - 150 wet pan - 425 front cover - 135 windage tray - ? so i think it was a pretty good deal. its not an optimal dry sump and i dont think i will seen any of the true dry sump benefits, but i think that a gravity fed oil pump and an additional 3 quarts of oil wont hurt. still working with peterson on a drawing and a price for the tank. im having to run a sight tube on the side to check fluid levels since im hiding it up under the fender and wont be able to pull the top. im also planning on using a dual inlet style, but the second inlet will be my filler to top the tank off. my inital thought was to use an existing hole towards the bottom of their stock tank, run a 90 off of it and a piece of hose up the side. id add a nice cap to the line which would be both my fill and a visual on oil level. their thinking that although the fill would be slow with a -8, it would be impossible with needing to fight gravity. id love to hear other suggestions that would make this damn thing cheaper. |
It might seem like that big of a deal but I think I would hate filling through a -8 line:willy:
sorry, that is all I have to offer |
i agree. it would probably take an hour and id spill a quart in the process.
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yup! nothing like getting on your hands and knees to soak up some oil on the shop floor. Don't ask me how I know
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got the dry sump stuff in the mail today. pan is acutally a little smaller than what i had mocked up, so i see no reason it wont fit. the side walls really slope in towards the bottom giving it a lot more clearance than it would seem. peterson is working on a quote and im still debating the aviaid pan baffle. some guys say that a good tank is all thats necessary. not sure its worth the 250 bucks.
still working out ideas for the injectors. the plan right now is for the ls9 injectors which are 52lbs. but they use a bent cone spray and im unsure if these would be optimal. pretty nice that you can get new ones for 200 bucks. block is close to getting done. i was told 3 weeks and that was a couple weeks ago. i finished up the edges of the bumper. i never liked the large radius of the fender and the tight radius of the bumper. i cut the heck out of the bumper and my .180 flows across the top and wraps around the sides now. still debating on what im going to do for a spoiler. id like to add an inch or so to the rocker, so it may require something up front to match. i bought new inner fenders and have already cut up the drivers side to get tire clearance. its not the nicest looking mod, but you cant see it from the engine compartment and the tire hides it from the outside unless youre on your knees and really looking. |
Nice update Tim! My opinion is get the pan baffle. It's cheap insurance...:thumbsup:
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i agree. without the pan baffle the two setups are only 50 bucks apart. but an extra 250 to not worry about it is worth it. im going to call tomorrow and order one.
thanks again for all your help ron. and let me know next time youre in the LB. |
You got it Tim. Maybe Monday, mid-day. I'll let you know :thumbsup:
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small update. i was able to get the drivers side inner fender done. welded in a notch in the top and had to relocate all the holes. i have the passenger side cut up and a template made for the notch. i still only have 3" of bump travel with the wheels straight. anyone think this isnt enough?
i also picked up an old style ls7 water pump for my wegner front drive, new ls coils on ebay for 128 bucks, new (dyno time only) FIC 60lb injectors for 150 bucks and the ls7 pan fittings for $35. im still working on the aviaid pan baffle, peterson tank and a few other small parts. block is now supposed to be done in 2 weeks. for those interested in the ls9 injectors, they are also labeled as magnuson, edelbrock and lsa 52 lb. most guys yank them during the installation of their aftermarket supercharger. more later..... |
just another small update. both front wheel tubs are done and ive moved back to the bumper. ive finished machining the second part of the inserts and have now moved on to gettting them mounted. i have a few more small projects on the body, but i think my next plan is to start the interior. i want to get the trunk and rear package tray roughed in and start on a center console. i just want the mounts done and welded before i spray the coating on the bottom. im hoping that marquez is close to done with their interior. i called them the end of last year and they hadnt started yet but planned to have it by this time.
the block still isnt done, but ive now been told the end of this week. i started talking with wegner again, but they are a few grand more than hke. the plan is still to ship the block to erik at hke and get this thing done. |
slow/small progress is still progress nonetheless!
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i mocked up the new hellas last night to check clearance for the peterson tank. the h4's fit perfect with no cutting needed, but the h1's need a hole in the core support and stick further out the back. in addition, my hellas fit different in the trim ring with one sitting about 1/4" out further than the other. since the h4 fit without cutting and they look different, im thinking about running all h4's and having the inner h4 hooked just to the brights. and for those that are interested, check out lehigh valley (<-- short version)...... ive always used my 4.5" variable speed grinder to do all the work (grinding, cutting, blending, etc) and switch back and forth tons of times a day. finally, last year i picked up a second cheaper one speed grinder that i only used with the harbor freight cut off wheels. after running through about 100 dics, i finally decided to give the dewalt wheels a chance at twice the price. ive found that i get more than twice the use and i havent had one gernade yet. i wont use the hf again. they worked, but a slight bind on a deep straight cut an they were toast. so back to the first sentence and lehigh valley..... home depot used to stock norton abrasives and had flap wheels for ~6 bucks a pop. expensive, but cheaper than dewalt and they didnt compare to the HF stuff. they recently switched suppliers and jacked up the price again. i went looking and found lehigh valley. ended up with 50 bucks worth of stuff at my door and gave them a shot yesterday. VERY VERY impressed. it seems like they last a little longer although the rumor is they use norton abrasives. they have a thin and thick version, but the thick is only $2.50 ea and is thicker than the old nortons. check them out. |
now that the bumpers done, ive turned my attention to the interior. going to start work on the trunk, build a sub box for through the rear deck and build a panel for the rear deck as well. once thats all done i'll start on the door panels and the dash.
ive also been working on the ring bros door handles. im a tall guy with huge hands and ive never liked how my hand fit the handles. i would literally have to use just two fingers behind the pull which isnt an option. i also didnt like how they didnt fully cover the recessed hole in the door. so, ive added 3/8 to the back of the handles for a full 4 finger fit and ive massaged the door to remove the recess. the only thing left is to cut my 3/8 spacer at an angle. right now the handles stick up at too far of an angle. the stock handles are backcut at an angle, but the ring bros are not. they werent really designed for our car and i knew that, so its not an issue with their product. i also picked up the block from steve and plan on shipping it out in a few weeks. i want to wait on valve covers from wegner and some more little parts before it ships. more to come. |
made some progress on the trunk. i decided to use mdf since i have all the tools and somewhat know what im doing. so far the pieces around the latch are 1/2 and the uprights are all 5/8". both are ultralight mdf with the 1/2" at 42lbs per sheet and the 5/8" at 52lbs (3/4 regular is ~96lbs). the side pieces you see now have the inlaid portion cut out, but there is still more to cut. they currently weigh ~1.2lbs. im using 1/8" mdf for the inlay and should have these panels under 2 lbs. i know i could have saved some more weight with foam, but it would have been a lot more time and money and im not sure i would have gained that much. i will end up routing a portion of the bottom piece out to save weight as well.
i talked to the local shop and they want $75 an hour and $450 a hide to cover. ive looked around online and found hides around $150 shipped. ive already recieved some samples and they look really good (although not sure what im looking for). i plan on getting one and covering the trunk myself. i might do the rear shelf as well, but i have a feeling the door panels, dash and center console will be left to the pros. i'll post more pics later. http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3265.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3261.jpg |
Coming along. Have you found out who your going with on Paint and Body?
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I like the lay out. What all do you have planned system wise?
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i still dont know on the head unit. it will probably be one of my last purchases to get the newest greatest bs they have out at the time..... |
still working on the interior, but a few updates. first, the block is done and in the garage. i put a deposit down on the motor and erik at hke will be building it. plan is still the same; 454ci, afr 245 heads, greg good ported super victor, ls7 dry sump. should be a beast.
the dry sump tank showed up from peterson. i originally wanted them to build a semi custom tank. i needed the catch can rotated compared to the inlets, catch can shortened 1" and a sight tube put on. they wanted about $400 extra for this work. instead, i had them build me a stock tank and had them leave the bottom of the catch can off. it will be easy enough to cut an inch off and weld. i still need to figure out a filling solution and something to check the level. i got a free 12 hour day from the family and got the seat belts welded up. i used 1/8" plate and created a lower mounting point for the retractor and used the same plate that mounts the harness bar and the upper point of the 3 point. it has a huge surface area and isnt going anywhere. i struggled with getting the 3rd point as high as possible, but ended up with a ~25* angle off my shoulder. i had to make sure that the rear door panel will still cover it while using up every 1/8" possible. im 6'3", so it only gets better with shorter passengers. its been a couple weeks and its pretty wet here with the marine layer so it already has a nice layer of flash rust. and heres the latest on the trunk panels. theyre mounted and ready for more router work. im going to get all the inside edges cut and cut out the inlays as well. then its on to the rear shelf, dash, door panels and center console.... http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3273.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3274.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3275.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3276.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...IMG_3285-1.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3288.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3292.jpg |
that motor is going to be nuts!
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Oooo I love the trunk so far, how about making me one right away to save me some time. :unibrow:
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That block looks familiar; I just got mine back from Steve at R.E.D. last week. You're going to love that motor! It is going to make all kinds of torque from cruising RPM on up.
Matt |
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inside edges are now routed. i was hoping to find a bit that left a ledge for the inlay to sit on, but it didnt work out. not a huge deal, but could have been a little easier.
i also started to pull the really old dynamat off the package tray and found a mess underneath. it looks like a few sets of speakers had been installed, so instead of dealing with swiss cheese, i cut it all out and welded some sheetmetal back in. i would have done without any metal and just my mdf package tray, but the upper portion of the 3pt is going through and i obviously wanted some support. http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3399.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3401.jpg |
Nice work. So glad ur a mile away so when my cars ready for interior I can bring it by for the stereo :rofl:
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more progress on the interior. got some work done on the package tray. there will be a 1/8" piece inlayed and the speakers will be flush with that. i plan to build the box in the next week or so and finish getting the speakers mounted.
i also added a couple pics of the door handles. still rough, but getting closer. the ring bros handles were WAY too small for my hands so i made some spacers. not sure if i will epoxy or attach another way, but they will get smoothed and painted as one piece. http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps46713094.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...psecffac37.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps8ad12101.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps9ade87a6.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...psab80e34a.jpg |
Jeez Tim that is NICE work! :cheers:
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Great job on the rear deck lid Tim.
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thanks guys. cant wait until rttc to get even more motivated again!
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Your doing an awesome job, Rear deck looks great.
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more updated pics. i would call the trunk just about done. i plan on making an aluminum "cover" for the trunk latch hole and i need to remount the new back piece. other than that, its ready for material.
a few people have asked about the back cuts that i used to lighten the panels. if i wouldnt have put the detail in the panels, i could have gone with a thin piece and not needed a back cut. id also wait until done mounting before doing the cut if i did them again. http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3662.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3666.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3668.jpg http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_3669.jpg |
Looking good! I don't think you will be dissapointed in the Focal speakers.
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