I'll help out on the "how the heck are other countries doing this" type of question at least from the ignorant view of a business traveler abroad.

I live in Northville, MI - pretty well to do area for Metro Detroit. Not by any means the "richest" - but pretty decent. Their high school is like a freakin Taj Mahal. HUGE.... BRAND NEW (well, a few years old now) .... no expense spared type of place. Same can be said for most of the cities nearby (e.g. South Lyon, and maybe Novi but not sure). At 2:20pm, traffic coming out of the school is a nightmare. And the county is looking for more money to spend on "upgrades" ????

I travel to China.... well, sort of.... SHANGHAI at least. Just walked around the Hongqaio area last week and the high school looks like a POS from the outside. The kids drive scooters, not late model BMW's or brand new cars. They were getting out of school at 7pm!

I travel to Germany. Not big city Germany, but more rural northern Germany. No Taj Mahal's to be seen. The teachers there are paid well... and from what I understand, PAY NO TAX ON THEIR TEACHING INCOME.

Point being that most of these other countries - when you talk about a school, that's what you are talking about. Not about it being pretty, or having lots of windows, or being brand new, or no more than 10 kids in a class, or whatever else. It's a space to teach... and that's about it. And they beat it home and society / parents put extreme importance on school. I'd say this is a bit different hear. I'm sure we are more successful in certain aspects of school. Just not in all of them... including some important ones!

Because our kids educators instill it in them from grade school on. But only in the larger cities, rural farming communities still have core values harmonious with those of our founding fathers.

Reality is we are not the majority any more. :(

There are many issues in the air here.

On education: do some reading on the Finnish educational system - they don't test; they surely don't use standardized tests; teachers are highly paid and even more respected; they view investment in their kids as critically important; oh, and they are also one of the most successful public school systems in the world. Note that none of those statements are (generally speaking) true of our educational system.

Next, the notion that the 1% are the economy is just utter BS. The vast majority of the 1% are executives who have played the corporate political game well, Wall Street vulture capitalists of various stripes who have manipulated financial instruments of various kinds (including corporate LBO's, junk bonds and so on), folks with inherited wealth and so on. The folks making $1,000,000 or more per year aren't, so far as I can, see job creators: they are the lucky beneficiaries of the visionaries who were, in fact, the job creators or are manipulating the legacies of those same job creators. Mostly the 1% are corporate executives (aka job exporters) and financial manipulators who have never created anything.

The "job creators" are folks like my gardener who has 2 employees on his payroll, the guy who painted my house recently, and all the other small shops and businesses throughout this country. With each job they create, their employees can afford to consume more goods, the fortune 500 companies run by the 1% get to sell more stuff and claim to be "job creators."

What this thread does demonstrate is that, as a nation, our values are seriously out of whack.

Thanks for the condescending comment; yes as you intuited, I'm simply a slave to TV news (which I never watch) and utterly believe eveything they say without question because, as you guessed, I'm simply too stupid to think for myself.

And my 35 years of negotiating multi-million dollar deals never gave me any insight into, what did you call it - "posturing"? Again, thanks for the insight. Before your tip, I always thought that the initial offer made was where the other side wanted to end up.

It must be nice to be a Tom Wolfian "Master of the Universe."

AMEN!!! We agree on something!!! LoL!!:cheers:
Just not what exactly is "out of whack" tho. :(

My wife's side of the family are all rural area working class teachers and the family is three generations deep in teaching. My in-laws were 30 year middle school Physical Education retiree's (Steve Prefontaine was their student, his sister is a friend), Uncle coached the State Champ 6 man football team, his son coaches the just crowns State AAAA Champions, niece played volleyball for the U of O and coached her High School VB team, her husband is the Varsity B-ball Coach. The in-laws, aunts, and uncles all grew up on the family ranch/farm that we still run.

There are some interesting conversations surrounding major metro education practices at our family functions that wouldn't be considered politically correct. :yes:


PERS distribution is public info and our 4 senior retirees individual annual income is between $31-$35,000, Oregon's last football coach Mike Bellotti (also a friend) retired a couple years ago and his PERS income is $42,000 A MONTH!

Another friend who started in patrol and ended up being Chief of Police receives $9,200 a month for his 30 years of service.......he retired at 51.

We understand Phys Ed and the PERS plan leading the state into bankruptcy. :thumbsup:

So who house is the gardener gardening? If he needs help it must be a big house. Same for the painter.
I can tell you that guy living on welfare does not have a gardener, his landlord does who probably owns a few properties.

I work with 1%ers everyday who create jobs in my shop on a daily basis. I would be glad to hire 2 more if the system provided something for the guys who choose something for their lives besides college.

Normally your posts make me think 2 things. Either I'm thinking, "Man, this guy is an eh-hole!" Or, I'm thinking, "damn, that's some sweet fabricatio!n". How dare you post something that makes me think you might have a clue outside the shop!

Both thoughts seem totally logical.

But to think somebody with minimal cash is going to outspend some guy with money is illogical.

Just think of the people the 1%ers in my shop employ, well my 8 employees, the welding supply and repair store, the garbage man, my landlord, power company, all my parts suppliers, the drivers who deliver parts,the scrap metal guys who pick up the scrap, my laser cutter and machinists, plus all garderers who work for everyone listed above, and the painters.

You could carry that even further to the people we spend our profits from the 1%ers on, race car parts for my hobby stock, all the way down to the rawhide bones my widest dog consumes at a ridiculous pace. Somebody had to make that thing for the dog to chew. To the guy building my swimming pool to the guy I buy my gasoline from.

My point exactly! The school systems will spend MILLIONS on a freakin football stadium and sports programs so we can focus on sports instead of learning something. Don't get me wrong I LOVE football, but its a freakin sport/hobby that for 99.9999% of kids that "play" won't be able to make a career out of it and support themselves. And if they are good, then they are shuffled thru school and given a free ride to college, where they do it all over again for the same reason not learning a thing and more than likely wont get a job in it. I know there are a few that actually learn and make it in "life", but that should be focused on and taught first! It's sickening how far we have regressed over the last 50ish years!!:mad:

Ya'all's comments on our sh!tty education system is exactly why I paid mucho extra to move to a city where K-12 are pretty much tops in the state and crime is near zero.

Small businesses are the job creators of this country yet Obamacare is gonna excessively tax these small businesses (like mine) so actually LESS net jobs will be created as costs will run higher and companies are already strategizing on how to minimize the damage of this flawed and ridiculous socialistic law.

Like Greg said --- FREE healthcare for all is not free..... job creators will pay.... and less net jobs will be created.

What a joke.

I'm curious. Who do you think pays for the "uninsured" now, who show up at hospital ER's and must be treated?

We do, of course. And I think it's only going to get worse. Who woulda thought America's healthcare system (the worst in the developed world as far as efficiency and cost) could actually decline....

There's an inverse correlation between the extent of the coverage and the cost per patient. Preventive care actually works, and if we provided it to those who are uninsured and who must must use ER services, the overall cost would decline.

I'll take this medical thing another direction. Doctors that attempt to mask the problem with a prescription pad instead of find the solution. I've known multiple people that have been turned into near zombies by a prescription pad.

The incentives drug companies offer doctors need to go away.

One of my goals this year was to find a fine doctor that listened and gave a ****. I was successful but it wasn't easy especially with my current insurance which is an HMO. Her practice is fairly new and that was the only way in the door.

Finding quality healthcare is extremely difficult but it's available if you are persistent enough and do your homework.
--
In regards to education. Greg is right, they continually pile on more and more and more onto these teachers every year with more kids and the same amount of time. Kelli has her 20 and she get's 2 autistic kids every morning to try to get into the mix. They moved a kid into her class that misbehaves and has been suspended multiple times as the other teacher couldn't handle him. Remember, this is 3rd grade! They need to crack down on the damn parents and kids more effectively. This cancer is why the smart kids are getting inferior educations as they consume to much of the teachers time and energy.

She puts in the hours too, let me tell you. She leaves at 7 and comes home at 5most days. Many nights and weekend time are spent grading papers, doing lesson plans, or buying supplies for the kids that the school doesn't provide. She has a bachelors, masters, +32, plus countless other formal training and pulls down 59k a year. I will say that she's more dedicated and driven than most as education is her passion but far from overpaid even with 3 months off.

Agreed. I own my own business. I have 5 employees and own my building with a tenant. I pay the yard guy, the landscaper in the spring and fall, the trash guy, the propane company, etc. etc. I am doing a nice project for PPG right now, the CEO of PPG is a 1%er, and PPG is adding a monster production line at a local finishing plant. The number of work (albeit temp) is huge. This construction guys, the electricians, the mechanical contractors, Me! all allows us to make money and put it back into the local economy. Corporations ARE job creators. As are the 1%ers. Another case in point: My best friend is SUPER wealthy. Huge house in a super affluent neighbor hood, a house in Naples, FLA on the water and a gentleman's farm here in town. The money is old family money. He owns a steel erection business and has grown the thing like mad, adding people and buying equipment like crazy. He could have sat around and sucked the tit of family wealth, but this guy will out work darn near anyone. And by work I mean drive equipment and walk the iron. He looks like he doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together. He might be the exception, but all of his neighbors are mostly guys just like himself, concrete company owners, commercial construction guys etc...

Darren

Todd - The compensation system for our schools is interesting as is the expectations placed on the teachers. Our son is TAG and boarder-line Asperger's. The schools here receive no additional funding to accommodate above average IQ students yet state law says they have to make special accommodation. Before confirmation they tested him 2 or 3 times and reported back that he is just below TAG level. We took him to an independent learning center where a long-time friend works for testing and he was full-blown TAG, not even a question.

Our schools receive numerous types of special state and federal funding for below average students yet there is none for above average. I've been told many education systems in EU countries capitalize on above average students with special programs and schools. Our local public system appears to rely on deflection tactics. I would guess it isn't much better across the country.

To compound the education issues with our son in the 4th grade his pediatrician over a 4 week period prescribe him with 3 courses of heavy antibiotics for ear and throat infections which I'm 90+ percent sure lead to his Crone's disease. I have numerous friends who are docs or in the medical field and the body language gets interesting when I mention the medically induced Crone's theory.
FWIW - That doctor was in favor of socialized medical program.

This is why I said the Mkelcy doesn't understand who really creates jobs - which in turn creates taxes...

Obviously the 1% is not the driving force for the economy - it's probably more like the top 30%.... The point is - it's not the bottom 50%. My MONTHLY budget is about what most GROSS per year. And it employs an awful lot of people. That's not bragging - it's just a fact. So think about that -- I'm equal to about 12 people in spending. The difference is I'm not just buying basic services and groceries etc.

I just don't think some folks realize where their income comes from. And when I hear this constant attack on "wealth" I know that it's from someone that has no understanding of an economy.

BTW --- YOUR GARDNER DID NOT CREATE THE JOB --- The guy that employs your gardner did. A gardner with no employer doesn't create anything.

What I dislike the MOST about the current POTUS is his constant class warfare attitude. He is SUPPOSED to be the POT UNITED States... not the "we against them" people.

I would also invite folks to actually look up who pays the "lions share" of all the taxes collected by the IRS. It might surprise those that think the top earners aren't doing their share. I beg to differ. But that's not really an argument. All the polls that I've read have said that the 1% don't mind paying higher taxes. What they do care about is the growth of the US budget and what's behind that growth. And that they want to see more constraint.

I forgot Kelli is a teacher! :cheers:


Do you make her dress up and stuff when...... <never mind>:unibrow:


My guess is that most people would quit after about one week of trying to be a teacher. I was a Boy Scout troop leader.... and trying to get, and maintain, the attention of 8 or 9 little boys was like herding cats. Just to get them settled enough to even START to do a project tried my patience!

Finally something we can agree on. :cheers:


Obamacare didn't address the COSTS of healthcare.... if it had - I'd have been all for it. Instead he just created an entire new government bureaucracy.

...........and appointed Robin Hood as the Czar.

I read Michelle's Thesis from Princeton in 2006/7 before it was suppressed. It definitely a had a strong underlying general tone of black vs. white IMO.
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/01/11...nceton-thesis/

Roger and Darren make classic examples of what drives this country. Small businesses are the infantry of America and right now it appears this administration values them about as much as an infantry pawn in Vietnam. :willy:

This is a typical VIEW FROM THE BOTTOM of the glass. As long as SHE felt that way - she was no doubt received that way. A chip on her shoulder. The very same "chip" that has this President declaring war on the 1%.

Reminds me of the debate between Lloyd Bentsen and Dan Quail....."I knew Jack Kennedy, and you sir, are no Jack Kennedy"
:cheers:

There is a silent shift in who they want to tax.. It was the 1%...Then magically it became the 2%...Any of us who know realize that it will silently go to the top 10%, and then ???? To pay the debt and without massive spending cuts, it will reach the top 40% eventually.

And as far as Todd's post, he is right on the money....After my seizures they gave me a life sentence of seizure medication...OK, I get that, but the additional medicine's they tried to give me to "cure" me were worse than the side effects they were trying to fix....Several times I tried their "cure"...After two days of Zombie land I refused to take it, and slowly, naturally, I am getting better. They want to treat everything with pills...No thanks..

I just don't see any compromise coming for a long time...The Media refuses to report the truth, and the 51% believe them. So I see it getting worse for many before it gets better, But they are going to need to understand what and why it is happening and stop believing what they are spoon fed..

I don't want to sound mean but I am sure it will come out this way.

Like you said they are going to have to eventually tax the middleclass and eventually everyone will see an increase. There will be job cuts ( hopefully for the people who voted for Obama ) and it is going to hurt us as a Nation. Which sucks.

However I a certain it's the only way the 51% will figure it out. Sometime you have to slap people in the face with a dead fish for them to understand what they have done.

On a side Note: Just think if Mitt did get elected and the economy went downhill the Republican party would be blaimed for it by the media. So if we fail as a country at least we know that Obama and his followers will be the cause !

I've said that before.... We are not doing anything about the cause of the issue (whatever it may be at the time), but rather trying to mask the symptoms. Like taking an aspirin for a splinter, ain't going to fix it at all but might make it stop hurting till its time for another one!:rolleyes:

I truely HATE this class envy crap that the politicians and press keep fueling. You hear it everywhere, how did working hard to provide a nice life for our families become so wrong. I am by no means a 1%er, but 90% of the work I do is for the 1%. For the most part, these are descent, honorable, hard working people providing for there families just like me. There are exceptions of course, but that is every tax bracket.

I've gotten to the point that if someone even starts the rich argument, I can't even take them seriously. We can debate taxes, but I can tell you that if you work hard, your taying over 50% in taxes by the time you add the fed, state, local, property, sales,fuel, etc,etc.

I lay the decay of the family at the feet of the government, once the tax rate got that high Mom could no longer stay home and raise little Tommy. Due to 50% of your income be obsorbed by the government, to have any kind of quality of life Mom and Dad both had to work. This kept both parent working and stressing over making ends meet, not leaving the time that most of our Moms had to spend on us. After all, look how good we all turned out.LOL

There is a lot of ignorance here. Taxes are exceptionally low relative to what they have been over the last century. There were decade long stretches where the top tax bracket was 90%, and that included dividends.

A common theme in this thread is that a lot of people don't pay and yet receive benefits from the government, which is deficit spending to do so. The so called 47%, where even if you remove the veterans and old people still has some people who in fact do work, but don't pay federal income tax (they pay local/state/sales tax of course).

Who is to blame for these free loaders who straight up get a check from the government? Bush in 2002. The tax cuts partially being discussed recently, included provisions that eliminated 8 million people off of the tax rolls because the lowest rate went down, and credits in some cases doubled.

I'm independent but I think critically about these things and I have a clear concise plan to restore America.

To balance the budget, a new law that says states can receive only an amount up to 80% of what your residents pay in income tax. Why 80%? Well some percentage goes towards government overhead, and some goes towards paying down the debt.

Net effect: All but 3 'red' states suddenly get a lot less money. My blue state actually gets less too so I'm not being vindictive here. Chances are the entire south goes bankrupt within a year.

Any state can opt out of Obamacare. The downside is we won't make medicare payments to your doctors as these things compliment each other and we aren't ala carte.

Net effect: Any state that opts out loses half or more of their doctors, and their residents are not as healthy, further adding costs to running the states as it turns out the states that would do this, would be the ones who currently take more than they make.

I love the rich, I mean I hope to be in Greg's shoes one day. Who bothers me is the South, a bunch of freeloading taking states that don't even have the awareness to see that they are railing against the very things that would help them. Not only that, but I'm paying for it.

This is half a joke, everything except for the part where I said I hate the south.

[QUOTE=realcoray;450171]There is a lot of ignorance here.


If you can debate nicely, please continue to post. If in your flame you are posting that people are being ignorant, please go to yahoo..

You have an Idea on what you believe is the way things should be. Many others do not agree with you..It is your right to have your view. It is our right to have ours...We never called you Ignorant, please show us the same respect.

We can agree to disagree. But when you are basically calling people Ignorant, please go to Yahoo...We have no place for that kind of flame on LatG.

You bring a different view that is great to discuss and talk about, just please watch how you present yourself..It is refreshing that you are the counterpoint, but without the flame and condesending remarks, that's all..

[QUOTE=Bucketlist2012;450175]I can debate nicely but we all have to be realistic and use some sort of logic and not emotions. In the last few days someone here posted that they basically hope people who voted for Obama lose their jobs.

How polite and even American is that? That is neither nice nor constructive. I appreciate the double standard in situations like this where a majority of the members are probably on one side and I want to discuss like an adult. The reality is I'm not on a side. It's a fact taxes are low, it's a fact that a lot of people don't pay federal taxes because of George Bush cutting taxes so much, they just didn't have to pay anymore. Republicans talk about taxes being too high and cutting them, but then they complain when they've cut taxes for some people so much that they GET money.

I will say I support the concept of the 1% paying more, at the same time I can say without a doubt that the government needs to spend less. It's not about attacking the rich, being jealous or whatever, it's about paying the countries debt.

Nothing is ever as black and white as some of you guys say, and all I am trying to accomplish is to point out the grey that people seem to avoid.

Is it just the media lately, or are more and more people in this country really starting to despise success??

How many of you saw the news with the Detroit cit councilwoman stating that since her people voted for Obama -- that it was time for some quid pro quo and bring home the bacon?

It's nothing to do with race.... for me personally. But this is, to me, even worse than the "Obama phone" video... This was put forth by someone that is suppose to be a representative on a government body. This is a city councilwoman! OMG...



LET ME SAY FOR THE RECORD -- I DO NOT, AND NEVER HAVE, WATCHED FOX NEWS... Most of the people on there are as far RIGHT as I think this councilwoman is far LEFT... I'm a guy that's way more right down the middle... but I found the video on their website so since it was easy - I'll post the link.


http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/20...now-support-us

The media. We all go to work and hope to be successful some day.
At least I do.:) I assume the majority of Americans are the same as me.
Turn off the television we when they feed you that garbage of 1% or 47 %. It's nonsense. The majority in this country is the working class.

This is the one part of this administration that bothers me the most... that they're actually WORKING to divide people in this country in a them vs us fashion. I couldn't be more against that kind of "governing".

The underlying tones within this government are the root of my distrust. :thumbsup:

I went to the range today at 11:30 --- I left at 4:00.... I took the .45.... the 30-30... the AR 15 .227... the .40... the two .22's

:lol:

That's a good day! Just remember you can't have enough ammunition.........Investing 103..........in the right calibers it may be like gold but pay big dividends.

All I did was make a few picture holders.......

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Weldin...IMAG3293-M.jpg

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Weldin...IMAG3291-M.jpg

http://sieg.smugmug.com/Other/Weldin...IMAG3295-M.jpg

Tomorrow I might design a special one for your new setee. :D

Oh theres some ignorance all right, I need someone to justify for me where the government should ever be entitled to 90% of what someone earns, or 50% for that matter. What services are you providing me that entitles you to 50% of what I work so hard for?

And on the Bush thing, that just makes me chuckle. Bush made his mistakes, but when does Obama take responsibvility for his actions. Its going to be 50 years from now and the Democrats are still going to be blaming Bush, and the press is still not going to do its job, and look for the true root causes.

When they kept saying:...."lean forward"

...they actually meant:.. "BEND OVER"

I dunno, I mean there are roads and bridges right? If your house catches on fire, someone is going to come put their life on the line to put it out right? If you injure yourself you can call 911, and within minutes people come to help.

If people fly planes into buildings, and we have to blow them up wherever they go, all of those missiles and people involved have no cost?

I was not even saying that taxes on the rich should be 90%, no one is saying that. It's simply pointing out that rates going up slightly (more so on dividends) is not a huge attack on the rich.

At the same time, I think that the government could be more efficient with their spending. For example, if we go over the fiscal cliff, spending will be cut on defense by like 10% or less and Panetta acts like it's going to be a huge deal. Granted it's 55 billion or something, but there is probably not an organization in existance that has 50 people or more, that couldn't cut 10% from somewhere and not notice. No private company I've ever worked was so efficient that any small cut like that would matter.

Bush screwed a lot of things up but it wasn't like he was the only person to blame for the recession. When looking at what you have to do to get things going in the right direction, sometimes you have to look at what occured to point you in the wrong direction and correct. The bush tax cuts and the wars are a large contributer to the deficits so looking at ways to address that makes sense.

Its funny we had police and fire protection, a military etc. in the 60's and still kept a tax rate below 20%. What has changed??, oh yeah social spending. I'm all for making the military live within its means, along with all the all the other corporate welfare that needs to be stopped. But, the real fiscal problem right now, is direct payments to individuals. You can choose not to except that, but it doesn't change the fact that it will end up crushing us. The fall of Rome.

Again, all I here is Bush, no responsibilty for Obama's actions. Kind of a picture of todays society, isn't it.