Investigators do with hold important information for a good reason. To compile the truth.

I will say it again. The whole AW crusade upsets me cause it ignores the true problem and wastes resources on something that will not cure the problem with our violent society. I don't have the answers but am hopefull that voice of reason will prevail.

Here's something you all might find "interesting":


Gun politics in Switzerland are unique in Europe. Switzerland does not have a standing army, instead opting for a people's militia for its national defense. The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations; Switzerland thus has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world.


In Switzerland, the police registered a total of 527,897 criminal offenses in 2010, including 53 killings and 187 attempted murders.

The AW ban is just a feel good movement and doesn't help the responsible, mentally stable, and lawful gun owners (myself included). One thing I saw is that there are some serious federal funding shortfalls in linking the known mentally ill and criminals.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan...hecks-20130113

one key thing was there was $125m authorized but only $5m appropriated for a more comprehensive database.

Why are we looking for new measures even though we can't pay for the ones we have?

I am still on the fence on hi cap mags. I own many hi cap mags for my xm but i find myself leaning towards my 1911 and 12ga 870 in a home defensive situation. In the Newtown case if only 10rd were available it may have required more reloads and more time for the police to respond. I do see some value in some safety measures around owning hi cap mags.

Yes, it will turn into a giant money pit.

I hear the idea on hi cap magazines alot. If you look at the statement it totally disreguards the root problem. Here is what that says. " by not having a high capacity magazine and only limited to 10 rounds it give potential victims time to hide and run while the gunman is reloading ". But how about not having the gunman there in the first place. So 10 dead is better than 30? Am I the only one that sees the wrong in the statement the media shoves in our faces? Just wondering.

High caps are nice. I didn't buy or own my firearms for home protection. Im a collector and target shooter. Its nice not to reload so often at the range.

Facebook post:

There are numerous 'tools' for every job. Some being a little better suited for the task at hand than others. A gun is simply a tool and when you break it down, some are better than others. A high capacity magazine is simply a part or feature of that specific gun. As I stated before, it really doesn't take any time to change out a magazine. I can reload my 1911 (8 rounds) faster than I can my SIG P226 and I'm a better shot with my SIG. I try to look at things like this from 'the other side'. Let's say someone used a 1911 to commit a crime like a school shooting. The larger caliber would be more effective. Thinner magazines would mean less bulk and one could move and fire more effectively, just to point out a few. My point is, that it's not the tool, it's how it's used. Banning any type of weapon or magazine capacity isn't the answer. Education on responsible gun ownership and more action against crime, while helping mentally unstable people (who are not criminals) is the key.

There is NO justification for taking anything away from law abiding people. The actions by a great number of our elected officials, who are using the recent shootings to stir an emotional response, rather than make an informed and rational decision, that would be a positive, is shameful. Good people are being treated as criminals and having their rights stripped away. IF they are allowed to take your 2nd amendment rights, what's to say or stop them from taking more? It doesn't matter what side of the issue you are on. What matters is taking the right/smart actions to protect our rights. The current knee jerking does not address the root cause of violent crime in the US.

Great point rationalizing a lower number is not the answer. I am also a collector and target shooter mostly.

I didn't say taking away I think safety measures around owning is important. I agree taking away doesn't solve the core issue. It's also a slippery slope for other rights. While its a shame that law abiding citizens need to go through a longer process for legal ownership that is the current environment we are in. If registration at the time of purchase was done WITH a comprehensive background check system like mental illness for the purchaser and in the household, and better criminal record links it might be a step worth considering. I for one never have an issue waiting the 30 minutes to fill out the proper paper work when I purchase.

This is no a one size fits all answer. There needs to be equal effort in mental health, and following through on the safeguards already in place.

The question I have is, how is verifying in all transactions that the buyer can legally own the weapon, infringing on your rights?

What if to purchase a gun, from ANY source, you needed a permit. The permit process would be equivilent to the current process, with a waiting period and background searches. The permit would be valid for say 6 months.

With a permit, you could purchase any weapon with no wait but it would either have to be overseen by law enforcement, or you could certainly create a situation where licensed sellers could handle this.

The same would apply to private sales, you'd have to perform the transaction through a seller or your sherrif.

Granted, this sort of stuff would probably mean higher fees, but it has benefits for gun purchasers, and would help close the giant loophole where criminals have plenty of ways to get guns.

Essentially, the more we are able to be sure that guns are getting into the hands of responsible people, the less control you need on the guns themselves. If it's just willy nilly which it basically is right now, then I'd rather not have assault rifles be everywhere, but if only stand up people have them, then I could care less.

How will this slow down criminals? We have laws against drugs you know, and they're more readily available than ever, haven't even made a dent in them. I am not against background checks, I think they need to be continued. I just don't think that's going to prevent what just happened. The previous assault weapon ban would not have changed anything in this instance.

I would agree with private sale transfers there is no good check and balance. For example in Ct you can call 24/7 to get a private sale authorization from the state but its not required (on long guns).

I actually enjoy being a permit holder I can buy on the spot with no waiting period. I have gone through the process and found it simple and effective. I actually know people who have been turned down for permits due to choices they made in the past.

There are too many what if scenarios that can all be played out. To effectively create reform around a constantly evolving criminal and mental thought process is like guessing tonight's lotto numbers. If you know it can you share it?:thumbsup:

Without a doubt criminals could probably still get guns. I mean the typical methods they might employ now would still work. Many guns criminals end up with were stolen from legal owners for example.

The thing is, it is not valid to say that because we can't seal guns off completely from criminals and crazy people, that we just shouldn't try to close the existing giant holes.

There is NO doubt that they will still get guns. How would your ideas have prevented the last tragedy? Again, I'm not against background checks, we have the ten day waiting period here for gun purchases. If you make it so all sales/transfers require this it's fine with me. But that does not stop what's happening. We need to look at other options to prevent or limit these tragedies. For some reason laws and gun-free zones don't seem to deter criminals.

I agree completely, there isn't anything you can do to prevent someone who wants a weapon from getting one, no matter what country you live in, no matter the laws.

The school shooting would still have occured (especially as some apparently believe, that the government did it), the aurora shooting would still have occured, as would have others.

There is no gun related solution that is going to just get rid of mass shootings, but that doesn't mean it's not a solid idea to make it more difficult for known felons to get weapons.

I'd rather felons have to do something criminal to get a gun (beyond the fact it's not legal for them to have one), than to just buy it from a gunshow without answering any questions.

We are all (or mostly) talking rationally and logically here. That is NOT the point to the government, they don't care If it's rational or logical..... Because rationality and logic does NOT fit thier agenda. Which IS to disarm the population. PERIOD. It's about power and control, NOT freedom, and this shooting fits just perfectly. I'm not saying that they "done it", but they are going to exploit it for ALL its worth to fit their agenda.

One step at a time, and this is just a big step for them.
My .02

Tinfoil anyone?!? LOL!:willy:

How does a gun show differ from a transaction anywhere else?

The latest Murder Statistics for the world: (Murders per 100,000 citizens)

Honduras 91.6
El Salvador 69.2
Cote d'lvoire 56.9
Jamaica 52.2
Venezuela 45.1
Belize 41.4
US Virgin Islands 39.2
Guatemala 38.5
Saint Kits and Nevis 38.2
Zambia 38.0
Uganda 36.3
Malawi 36.0
Lesotho 35.2
Trinidad and Tobago 35.2
Colombia 33.4
South Africa 31.8
Congo 30.8
Central African Republic 29.3
Bahamas 27.4
Puerto Rico 26.2
Saint Lucia 25.2
Dominican Republic 25.0
Tanzania 24.5
Sudan 24.2
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9
Ethiopia 22.5
Guinea 22.5
Dominica 22.1
Burundi 21.7
Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7
Panama 21.6
Brazil 21.0
Equatorial Guinea 20.7
Guinea-Bissau 20.2
Kenya 20.1
Kyrgyzstan 20.1
Cameroon 19.7
Montserrat 19.7
Greenland 19.2
Angola 19.0
Guyana 18.6
Burkina Faso 18.0
Eritrea 17.8
Namibia 17.2
Rwanda 17.1
Mexico 16.9
Chad 15.8
Ghana 15.7
Ecuador 15.2
North Korea 15.2
Benin 15.1
Sierra Leone 14.9
Mauritania 14.7
Botswana 14.5
Zimbabwe 14.3
Gabon 13.8
Nicaragua 13.6
French Guiana 13.3
Papua New Guinea 13.0
Swaziland 12.9
Bermuda 12.3
Comoros 12.2
Nigeria 12.2
Cape Verde 11.6
Grenada 11.5
Paraguay 11.5
Barbados 11.3
Togo 10.9
Gambia 10.8
Peru 10.8
Myanmar 10.2
Russia 10.2
Liberia 10.1
Costa Rica 10.0
Nauru 9.8
Bolivia 8.9
Mozambique 8.8
Kazakhstan 8.8
Senegal 8.7
Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7
Mongolia 8.7
British Virgin Islands 8.6
Cayman Islands 8.4
Seychelles 8.3
Madagascar 8.1
Indonesia 8.1
Mali 8.0
Pakistan 7.8
Moldova 7.5
Kiribati 7.3
Guadeloupe 7.0
Haiti 6.9
Timor-Leste 6.9
Anguilla 6.8
Antigua and Barbuda 6.8
Lithuania 6.6
Uruguay 5.9
Philippines 5.4
Ukraine 5.2
Estonia 5.2
Cuba 5.0
Belarus 4.9
Thailand 4.8
Suriname 4.6
Laos 4.6
Georgia 4.3
Martinique 4.2
And ....The United States 4.2
ALL the countries above America have 100% gun bans !!

Word!

Pass the foil, Jimmy.


Jeff-

Yes, lets put the money and effort into the root cause. Or is the root cause part of the Governments plan? Not sure what is happening.

Foil? thats old school. Ebay.... $19.95
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...UC885015lg.jpg

I just picked that arbitrarily, of course to be effective you have to have oversight over all sales, even between individuals.

The other aspect is somehow improving security of guns which legal owners have, but I don't have a lot of ideas that would be truly effective and not be invasive. The angle there is that a key source of guns for typical criminals would be stolen guns.

Technology exists to all but eliminate that, but it would basically have to be mandated and it isn't practical to apply it to the 300 million guns we already have. You can't fix this thing anytime soon and intense gun rights people basically shoot down any idea that doesn't just solve it immediately.

Mandating something like biometric trigger locks so only authorized people can fire a particular gun would take decades to make a difference and would increase the cost of guns. The first thing alone is enough to make most of you dismiss it, since it won't immediately stop all gun murders, and the second one will have people howling also, even though the 2nd amendment doesn't say guns have to be cheap.

Then of course the fact remains that some criminals would be able to secure ones through some other mechanism (smuggled into the country, etc), so since we can't seal them off completely, we may as well not do anything!

The average felon who has a gun, does not have some sort of international weapon traficker bring them guns in shipping containers. Why do that when you can just buy one from a guy down the street? Would they do that when they couldn't buy from down the street?

The cost of a gun smuggled in is probably a multiple of what it would be from a private seller, and many criminals are not rolling in money, so while it's possible, chances decrease that they could secure a working weapon.

Of course then the argument is the knife attacks in China, wouldn't people just use knives? Of course someone can use a knife but it's a lot harder to kill 20+ people with a knife than it is with an assault weapon.

All of that is not even touching on the violent culture and mental health care issues which gun people point to. I agree completely, those things need to be looked at. The reality is, no one change is going to do it, so you look at each area, and take the low hanging fruit, obvious things and some of these gun things are just obvious.

But your missing the antennae to help "throw off" the brain waves!! Gotta have an antennae!! LOL!!:woot:

Source please? I need to show other people this.

I just wrote to Senator Maria Cantwell and simply stated what I believe to be the issue in the ban on guns....


Which is:

Show me any law that has eliminated an issue by making something illegal. Murder? DUI's? Drugs? Prostitution? It's already illegal to murder someone regardless of the way it's done. What stronger "law" is there? What possible deterrent to someone bent on murdering someone else is there?

Then I simply asked that she quit the political "feel good" law enactment exercise, and get on with the REAL issues Congress should be dealing with.


Of course - these azzholes are LAWMAKERS by definition.... so that's all they actually know, or care to do. Otherwise they're completely useless at best. :D

Well - here's a chart in color....

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454


Here's one that you have to download because it's an excel spread sheet...

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-a.../homicide.html


Here's one from the UK -- again a database you download...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...ry-murder-data


Wikipedia will give you a full page --- color charts and listings by country etc and is probably the easiest "source" to use.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

While you're looking ---- just Google --- Worst US school murder in history.


Only a couple shots were fired.... and actually I think it was only ONE shot.


And if you want another mass murder of innocent people that didn't use guns...


Try reading about the Murrow Federal Building.

So what do you all think will proposed/enacted tomorrow?

Here's a nice letter to Biden from the County Sheriff on our northern county boarder.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-v.../i-vRdWW5C.jpg

:bow: :bow: :bow:

And there it is in a nutshell..... why make laws that affect ordinary law abiding citizens and that punish manufacturers - thereby their employees etc and all the retailers and their employees -- because of the couple of nut jobs running around.

This is exactly what my police buddies say -- and the people that work (retired cops) at the range etc. While they detest gun violence -- they know bans don't work.


It's just pure political grandstanding.

:thumbsup:

Just sent Sheriff Mueller an email thanking him....and I'm not even a fan of law enforcement!:_paranoid
Hopefully VP Biden has received thousands of these letters.

I guess we'll see what's said tomorow

:cheers:
Dan

Gotta love those Texas dudes!! I like the way this guy thinks!!





The measures potentially implemented by executive action would be different than legislation regarding a possible assault weapons ban or a large magazine ban that may be introduced in Congress, officials said.
Conservatives have raised strong objections to the idea of any executive actions on the part of the White House, saying that the president's efforts constitute a violation of the Second Amendment.

Freshman Rep. Steve Stockman, R-Texas, has even threatened to introduce articles of impeachment.

"Any proposal to abuse executive power and infringe upon gun rights must be repelled with the stiffest legislative force possible,” he said in a statement. “Under no circumstances whatsoever may the government take any action that disarms any peaceable person — much less without due process through an executive declaration without a vote of Congress or a ruling of a court.”

Sheriff Mueller was interviewed on camera on Fox & Friends this morning. Sounds like this letter has gone viral. :thumbsup:

The Sheriff has the authority over any Federal govt in his county... he can send them packing if he chooses.

This actually makes a lot of sense to me.... Obama telling people that added security probably isn't the right thing to do for schools -- while his kids are guarded to the hilt.... You can bet he feels perfectly safe because he's guarded 24/7 by armed guards.



http://todaynews.today.com/_news/201...un-debate?lite

It would be fair to say he may have a few more serious enemies more than the average citizen.

Here comes the executive order.

Nauseating.......

Obama Biden stimulus...........a plan that will benefit all the unemployed who while working began hoarding high capacity magazines since the Clinton ban and will now have a retirement plan funded by the tax free dollars of the criminal black-market buyers. Brilliant. You can also bet the Chinese are ramping up magazine production on popular model knock-off's.

Not to mention Fast and Furious... what about those gun regulations?

I'm seeing lots of articles from common folks and law enforcement who are against bans and new laws that restrict the law-abiding.

I'm not seeing any articles about citizens who are in support of executive orders, bans, having their rights taken away? I am only seeing democratic polititions demanding these things.

Here is a list of the Executive orders.

1. "Issue a presidential memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system."

2. "Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system."

3. "Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system."

4. "Direct the attorney general to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks."

5. "Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun."

6. "Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers."

7. "Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign."

8. "Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission)."

9. "Issue a presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations."

10. "Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement."

11. "Nominate an ATF director."

12. "Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations."

13. "Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime."

14. "Issue a presidential memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence."

15. "Direct the attorney general to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies."

16. "Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes."

17. "Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities."

18. "Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers."

19. "Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education."

20. "Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover."

21. "Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges."

22. "Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations."

23. "Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health."

24. Upgrade weapons systems and tactical security measures for myself and family members