We added shoulder belt guides to the roll bar cross bar. On track I don’t like these moving around on the bar.

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Banged read this thread today, love the build

Hope to see you and this beauty at COTA soon

Mike P.

Maybe they are using that new math being taught in school nowadays..... ;-)

It is that magic BSFC the kids are using now...

Since I started using VapowWorx my fuel issues have gone away. Thanks Carl for all the advice! [emoji57]


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Caprice License Plate Holder
 

I've never thought of this but the 69 Camaro bracket always bothers me when filling up. I'm going to have to steal the bracket off of my 96 SS and see if it fits, I don't remember seeing that one in your book but you learn something new everyday; thanks for all the good ideas!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CAPRICE-CLA...-/130098906949

FYI


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Does it mount in the factory holes?

No it does not. I have made adaptor brackets on past build.

Hey Mark,

Could you tell us a little more about your cooling setup?
What kind of radiator?
Fan or fans?
Water to air heat exchanger for the super charger?
Oil cooler, oil to air or built in to radiator?
Power steering cooler?

I know you installed that rear diff cooler and ran the hard lines up front. Where do they connect to?

Real interested to hear how you've managed to package all these systems in to your car.

Thanks!

Camaro LT5
 

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3d79f91d58.jpg


Hot Rod cooling. Fun topic. First off I want to give a disclaimer…..this is what worked for me.



Also 90% of people do not need to harden their cars this much because you don’t beat on them as hard as I do. Many times I’m asked to take someones car out on the track to see what it will do and I over temp their car. Even if the owners never had an issue. I brake, corner and accelerate harder than most people. Ask my buddy Gordon. Oh he won’t let me drive his stuff anymore.



A car has two parts to it, track capability and track durability. Capability is lap time, maybe one lap. Durability is how long it can do it. At work we run test called “Tanks full of fuel”. We fill the car all the way up and run it flat out on a race track until the fuel runs out. We do these back to back. A vehicle with usually thermally stabilize after the 2nd tank fulls of fuel.



Most of us that take our cars to open track days run 20 minute sessions. These are usually about 40 minutes apart. So not as hard on stuff as what we test at work. If you just AutoX you will most likely not have any issues other than power steering cooling. Make sure for whatever you do make sure the power steering cooler is big enough. I now just use a oil to water transmission cooler built into the rad. C&R talked me into a smaller one on Jackass and I killer 4 power steering pumps before I went to a bigger cooler.



I have been fighting cooling issues for years. Most aftermarket products were designed to cool vehicle that cruise around or do occasional drag racing.



With the growth of Pro-Touring track events over the last 15 years the need to cool these cars has become apparent. I was an anomaly back in the ‘90 going to open track days and doing One Lap of America. When I rolled up to tech Brock Yates was amazed. He was correct, we did not finish and we did catch on fire! I learned a lot on One Lap.



As a little background on how I sorted some of this out. I was fortunate that my day job was developing high performance vehicles for GM at about the same time my Camaro started to get real fast. We would take a “Street” car to the race track and we would have all kinds of cooling issues.



It was during this time frame I came to understand not all cooling parts are created equal. Most of your “Hot Rod” radiator companies use cooling technology from the 70s. Have you hear the term “I have a 2 core radiator in this”. The OE to save mass, cost and add fuel economy have worked with suppliers to develop higher efficiency cores. (Heat rejection per square inch). The OEs are always attempting to balance the mass flow of air around and trough the vehicle. Cooling needs mass flow of air. But the more air you jam into the radiator and brake cooling duct the more the drag goes up. To help drag you can add better fans to move air without effecting drag. Hot Rods are just bad for areo put they do have a lot of cooling area.



To help the mass flow of air the OEs developed much better cooling fans that are controlled by PWM (Pulse Width Modulating) the fan. These fans (I use one from a 2019 CTS-V) can consume 75 AMPs at full power (About 1.2 HP). With modern controls the fan is driven off 3 parameters. Coolant temp, A/C head pressure and inlet air temp. So the fan only runs as hard as it needs to. We have all been at a car show and a great looking car rolls by and all you hear is his crappy fan whaling away.



A fan will cover up or help a car with poor front end air flow, or a thick cooling stack. First is packaging. My buddy Jack Chisenhall (Owner Vintage Air) told me a long time ago the radiator is most efficient on the top 1/3. On double pass cross flow radiators the hottest engine coolant is at the top. Make sense. I always leave the top 1/3 of my radiators uncovered by the intercooler or the A/C condenser.



The cooling issues real became apparent to me once I moved from naturally aspirated engine to supercharged engines. Some of my earlier cars could hit 320 oil temps in 3 hard laps.



My cooling stack has evolved like the OEs. If you look at the cooling system of a current CTS-V or a Camaro ZL1 it is a module. It comes out as a single system. Engine cooling radiator, Intercooler, A/C condenser and fan are an assembly. This system is isolated by rubber isolators to the body/frame. I have moved to the same system. My cooling stack weights about 60 lbs wet so it sits on radiator isolators from a C-6 Corvette and the mass is held by the sub-frame. It is constrained for-aft and cross car with more rubber isolators that go to the radiator support. On Gunner did not allow enough “float” and failed 3 radiators. As you must have sorted out by now it this is not a bolt in system.



Keeping with an OE approach I have all my heat transfer done in the cooling stack. I have C&R build me a one off radiator to my print. It has a nice high efficiency core. (They used to use OE Denso cores and have moved to an in house core). The engine oil cooler is a NASCAR part oil to water, it also has 2 more oil to water heat exchanges to cool the power steering and transmission fluid.



To recap power train cooling. You need good air flow to cool things. Open up the front end and or add very good cooling fan(s). Use a high quality radiator. Allow the system room to thermally expand and contract. Make sure it mounting will survive track use.



On a side note on power train cooling. On my supercharger cooling systems I have tried a few things. After testing a few things and talking to some experts at work I have concluded that the super charging air to water systems work the best if you can keep the system flow up. So I like to keep the head pressure down by limiting the hose lengths and bends. Let the water flow as efficiently as possible. Use good pump(s) and make sure you get all the air out of the system. Designing the system so it will “burb” is critical to get the air out. To test after the system is bled, turn on the intercooler pump with the engine off. The pump should run smoothly with no tone. If you have air in the system you will hear it go through the pump. For the ZR1s at work it can take 2 hours to properly bleed the intercooler system to get all the air out.



You asked about diff cooling. During the development of the Gen 1 CTS-V we could see diff temps above 320F in about 7 laps of our test track. (For reference most synthetic oils break down above 320F). So we set that as an excursion temp to not exceed). We struggled to come up with a cost effective solution to cool our diffs for production. Most solutions were loud and expensive. We also had an issue with manual transmission temperatures. We worked with Tremec to develop a pump for the TR6060 transmission. This killed two bird with one stone. We use the internal transmission pump in the TR6060 and the Automatics to pump trans through a cooling loop. The pump moves trans fluid to the radiator to an oil to water heat exchanger. The cooled fluid is then moved to the diff to a oil to oil cooler then back to the transmission. The aftermarket T56 Magnums do not have the pump built into them but the casting will except the pump. I added it to Hellfire. It was cool but expensive. D&D Performance can do the modification. Now I just use a Weldon standalone pump on a switch.



It was not until Gunner that I added a diff temp sensor. What I discovered on Guner was if you have GearFX polish the gears you can do three 20 minute track sessions before the diff temps get over 300F. I did not add a diff cooler to Gunner.



The new LT5 powered car I am adding a differential cooling loop because I know it will be an issue with higher power.



The key to sorting all this out is data acquisition. Now that you can get system like RacePak or other data loggers you can look at the data after a session. It is way too hard to monitor everything while you are driving. Now you can set flags in the digital systems to flash when things go outside preset limits.



Sorry this is long winded…. But you asked.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ccea12ded4.jpg

Wow, all I have to say is wow. My mind is blown.

Thank you for the in depth explanation and reasoning.

I understand your car is built to beat the living snot out of, and do it for many minutes at a time while barely breaking a sweat. I know race car technology works it's way from the racetrack and eventually finds its way in to production cars.

Thank you for sharing that with us, I know that there is something we can all take away to make our cars just a tiny bit better, even if they'll never be driven to the level of your capability.

Thank you

Really informative answer, thanks for sharing.

I'm a casual lurker with a neglected Meanstreet build, who also happens to be the CEO of a laboratory-grown diamond company. If you're not aware, diamond is ~5x more thermally conductive than aluminum or copper, and there are many applications of lab diamonds as a heat spreader in satellites, lasers, 5G cell towers, etc.

Lab diamond heat spreaders really won't help a PT build, but DLC might be of interest to you.

Have you looked into DLC (diamond like carbon) coating any of your moving parts? Either professionally or with your builds? It's a fairly substantial coefficient of friction reduction versus metal on metal and might be of benefit to reduce the overall heat generated in your various systems.

Also, have you looked into Laminova heat exchangers? I'm a supplier to Koenigsegg and I know they have had great success with Laminova HEs:
http://www.laminova.se/products/oil-coolers

Lastly, to your point about driver and use case, I have a three-pedal 702rwhp 2nd Gen CTS-V. Upgraded HE for the blower, but OEM cooling otherwise. I'd overheat it halfway through my first flying lap of a HPDE, but the car does phenomenal in 2-3-4-3-2-3-2-3-4-3 driving in the twistys in the Santa Cruz mountains where I am traction and deer/wild turkey/road bicycle limited.

If you were a part of the CTS-V development, thanks for your work- it's a phenomenal car.

+1 on everything Mark said. Doing track days and now amateur racing for 15+ years now, thermal management is maybe the most under-appreciated aspect of ultimate performance.

You will notice that the "customer" field on the drawing Mark included is not him. It's me - because I got in touch with C&R and asked them to duplicate Mark's setup on Hellfire, and then they included additional feedback on the design from Mark himself based on Gunner. I would highly recommend that if you're chasing the ultimate in track capability, you get in touch with the C&R folks. Extremely knowledgeable and competent. Not cheap compared to off the shelf systems that aren't up to the task, but very high value for what you get.

And to Mark, loving the thread and learning something all the time. I have a kind of Hellfire Jr. LT4-based remake of my car near completion - and a lot of it is just directly copied from what I learn from your builds. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the post. Sorry I have not tried any of your coatings.

Yes I was part of HPVO (High Performace Vehicle Operations) when the CTSVs were being developed. Great cars!

Dave Mikels who sometime posts on here was also on the team and developed the system that keeps that car from Power Hopping.

Added is me driving a Pre-production car at Summit Point. Good times!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...28ec52132b.jpg


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Can you diamond coat differential gears to make them quiet ?

Just want to say thanks for the wealth of info that you share with your builds. I'm currently redoing my 1960 Impala hardtop and your clutch geometry explanation has been a god send. I actually had a used 4th gen pedal assembly from a T56 I bought to copy and I made a firewall bracket like the detriot speed.
Attachment 71886


Also thank you for helping develop one of the the best American sedans ever built. They kinda have a soft place in my [emoji173] I owned a gen 1, moved to a gen 2, then things got out of hand...
Attachment 71885

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For those interested.... One of the most challenging engineering projects I have had in my professional career.

BTW - FCA pays GM for every Hello-Kitty and the other performance cars in their line up to utilize this patent on their vehicles.

Regards
Dave

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNu...%3DIN%2Fmikels

And FCA still screwed it up from what I've seen ... grenaded rear ends and such

Thanks for sharing Mark and Mike. It's these kind of systems projects that make for very difficult yet rewarding challenges. Nicely done fellas.

There is so much talk about how easy it is to make 800-1000hp, but to make it live reliably on-track then drive it home is a whole different monster than 1/4-mile at a time or short blips on the street.

Mike, I'd love to hear about your project sometime....

Thank you for the informative post Mark. I have followed your builds and paid particular attention to cooling for track durability.

Background:

Mercury Racing SB4 - running this C&R radiator (link below)with the 13 plate EOC and PSC. Added an Accusump, remote therm and filter into the circuit which should bring some added cooling capacity with volume and oil starvation insurance. Also larger remote PS reservoir. The MR ECU controls the fans. Vaporworx for PWM fuel delivery. I will have to watch for any radiator failures as I did not isolate(floating) the mounting as you have.

Added trans cooler with T56 internal pump. Diff gears are REM treated but no cooler thus far. We'll see how it does. Will monitor every temp with a Motec dash logger.



Q: Is the C&R radiator with integrated PSC and EOC the same capacity/specs on the 'Mark Stielow spec' or different?

https://www.crracing.com/product/che...l-11-spal-fans

To be clear, I sell custom made-to-order jewelry with man made diamonds, I don't offer DLC coatings. Was just simply sharing a complimentary tech to my work that may be of interest to folks here to reduce the BTUs you need to shed from your systems by reducing friction.

Here's a paper from Honda F1 claming they deduced friction in the transmission by 3.3kW with DLC:
http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Fi...F1-SP2_43e.pdf

Honestly, I'm not sure. The coating is only a few microns thick, and I think the proper setup of the ring and pinion is far more important than a lower friction coating of the gears.

I would be guessing looking at the photo. Call Phil at C&R he can tell you for sure. Great guy.

Mark

I spoke with Phil...as you said great guy with a wealth of information. Basic summary is very similar capacity in cooling for the EOC and PSC although quite different in shape and size but your radiator capacity is a bit larger which you were probably aware. The PS cooler is the same one used in Nascar btw.

Mark,

I know that with your radiator, you have the weight of the unit sitting on those pins using the C6 bushing/grommet attached to your frame rails.

The brackets and bushing/grommet you're using on the side of the end tanks, where are they from?

Thanks!

John

C&R made them off my drawings. The first art Sled Alley designed and fabricated


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Apparently the secret is to order it from Summit Racing on the west-coast... Sparks, NV.

The description on Summit said "plastic", but this is what I got :D

Mark,

I don't think you've told us about your transmission? What clutch are you going to run and what mods are done to it to help it survive from all that power and your driving style? :drive:

I went to the Centerforce DYAD clutch on the last 4 builds. Low pedal effort, easy to modulate and holds the power if you break it in properly. It also has a good hi RPM reserve when installed with the Centerforce throw out bearing. Their throw out bearing give a bit more travel and make red line shifts super clean.


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No mods to the T56? Are you running the Super Magnum?

Camaro LT5
 

I had D&D Performance tuned up my T56 Magnum. Their shop is 5 miles from my house and they are great to deal with.

Off memory replaced all the nylon sliders with brass and added better synchronizers where needed.

I also have 6th gear swapped to a 0.5 ratio to make cruising on the highway at 80 mph at around 1840 rpm.


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Do not be sorry that this post was long. Call me a nerd or whatever, but I love this type of stuff! Thanks Mark!

Mark,
What website is the speed calculator on? I couldn't find it. Yes I did look before bothering you LOL

thanks,
Jim

It is an app from TREMEC. It is on my phone

Thankshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...395155098a.jpg


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The Tremec app is great but be sure to remove the protective case on the phone or else false angle readings can occur.

Anyone ever use the Spicer app? Like if you want to use an angle gauge instead of your phone?

And buttons on the side. I can't use my s8 because it has buttons on both sides. I used my old ipod instead

I did not see anywhere where you state what the part # is for the a Mann and Hummel Air oil separator. I looked on their website but did not find that particular one.

Also, who made all of the mods to the Peterson oil tank? Is this something we can purchase with all of the mods done to it, or was your own custom design & made thing?

Thanks for all of the great info. Saves the rest of us a ton of effort and wasted time and parts! :D

I have not been able to find anyone with these pedal covers. Any ideas?

Should be at any GM dealer.
GM Parts giant.com shows them for $8.72
:)

https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/oem-pa...s-pad-88996614

https://www.gmpartsgiant.com/parts/gm-pad-88996614.html