calling all lateral-g artists for a chat
 

I've been talking with ZVT who I'm sure you're all familiar with after seeing his killer renderings recently, and we were wanting to get some conversation going on with the other artists hanging out here. I know that he has a lot of questions as someone interested in making some cash with his art - me as someone who has been but struggles with some of the finer points and then others who have probably been doing this for years successfully. Rather than saying, HEY, what's the magic answer to the question that has no perfect answer, maybe we could open a conversation where we could get into what people are doing and how different situations have worked for them ...??

I know personally, I've been dealing with how willing I am to turn over all rights to a drawing and also, what you guys are providing your client as a finial rendering (prints? and of what quality or cost to you ... files? and what types etc). I know what I would LIKE to give them, but then rights always come up and I'm not great with writing contracts (books have helped). Each situation I've come across has been so unique and never REALLY what I envision as a Hot Rod artist. I dunno, I'm just throwing this out hoping to get people talking and maybe to get us better acquainted with one another. Quite obviously there are guys here (ZVT) who represent the start who have MAD skills and are serious about what they're doing and would like to get to know people with some very useful insight. Well the same goes for me, having exactly no source of advice for what I do since I started it - basically making it up as I go and having no clue that I'm making major mistakes. I'll let ZVT get in on this for his questions and whatever but I'd be very interested to hear what others are giving to clients as the finial piece of art.

I'm glad you bring this stuff up.

The legality, copyrighting, taxes, etc. are the things that I really need to become more serious about as well. Thanks to all the great people I've been able to help with their projects this year, it's looking like I will be able to go full-time sooner than I anticipated. It's simultaneously a dream come true and also incredibly intimidating as far as what I need to know and do to run a legit company rather than a moonlighting gig. What laws, licensing and documentation do I need? How can I copyright my work? I've seen my work floating around on the web that I never gave permission for or design concepts that have been thinly veiled as an "original idea" by someone else. What action can I take if I think it's necessary?

As far as deliverables, I try to keep it as informal as possible right now. I'm usually not going to make a big deal if someone wants me to send them a CD or a file to print out themselves. As long as my name stays on the work and I get credit for it I probably won't say anything. Now if someone were to mass produce the image for the sole purpose of turning a profit, yeah, I may speak up. I try to take a common sense approach to it. Could I make more money out if I were a stickler for copyrighting? Maybe. I at least reserve the right to use it in my portfolio, but I ask permission from the client.

I typically print out on my home printer 11x17. If they want a larger print, I charge them whatever it cost me to have it printed at a print shop.

I'm starting out and never really charged anybody for anything I have done(more cool an oppurtunity to improve my skills).

I for one dont have any idea on how to charge for something I do.I can spend 2hrs on a rendering and sometimes up 40hrs its a passion so you never really think of it in terms of money.It would be interesting to find out about the legal side of things to give us an idea of what we are getting into.Also what others think a drawing/rendering is worth?

I found that posting lower res images keep people from using my drawings/ photoshop manipulations etc..


As far as prints I found it useful to use walmarts photo center for my larger prints.They go up to a 20x30 poster size @ a pretty reasonable price.

Zee

Pricing is very difficult because it depends on so many variables:

Customer need, medium used, level of detail, complexity of graphics, vintage of vehicle, level of mods, "design time" vs portrait, # of views, variations, revisions.

For comparison, the Product Design firm I work for charges the client $110/hr for my time on a project. There are far more Product Design services available than Custom Car designers. It's an incredibly small group of people that can do car design (not just illustration/portraits) professionally but the market is also relatively small compared to the market for consumer, industrial and medical products.

That said, I've done rough sketches and nice photoshop chops for under $200 because they're quick and easy. Fully finished (revisable or un-revisable) renderings take longer and require more skill so they cost more. I've also been at the other end of the scale where I'm deeply involved in all the decision making, color selection, wheel design, part design, meeting with vendors, traveling to clients, countless phone calls and emails. It all adds up....quickly. The best thing you can do is give them a price based on how many hours you think it'll take and make sure they understand what they are getting for their money and what additional work (revisions) will cost. Keep track of how long it takes you to get to a finished rendering. The more you do the more you will know what to charge.

That guy Ben doesn't know anything don't listen to him :lol:

Ok here is good thread from my old hang out spot.
Page 2 lists some good books about art and business.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...59#post1922659

Listen to Ben, Lemorris, and Bonzilite

I can't offer to much first had experience help. I'm still new, plus I have just about decided to just keep it as a hobby mostly doing a job here and there.
I am almost sure that I'm just going to invest my energy in to my IT career.
That is just me. I'm not sure if I "love" car art enough to do it more often. I have some personal things going on that takes up my time.

Hey Ben I was joking...hee hee

No worries Al.:D

But seriously, I'm probably in close to the same boat you guys are in.

From early 04 to the beginning of 06 I did a bunch of freebies for friends and entered contests when I could. I probably had 3-4 real jobs in that time. I went to a couple shows and joined online forums but it really didn't start picking up until I joined Lat-g and Scott had the Artwork forum here. Word of mouth travels extremely fast around here and I am up to 93 projects in the book for 07. I've only gotten to about half of them it seems because I'm also working a full-time job and have a 2 year old and a house that needs work.

I flat out run out of day....everyday. I literally come home from work at 7PM, eat dinner with my wife, walk the dog, kiss my daughter goodnight and I'm upstairs in a spare bedroom working til 2, 3, 4 in the morning and up again at 6. On the weekends, I play with my daughter while my wife is at work, I cut the grass when she gets home and I spend most of the rest of the weekend working. My Nova hasn't been touched in over a year! I wouldn't do it if I wasn't absolutely rabid about doing this for the rest of my life. I'm paying my dues now and I love it, it's an obsession. However, it's not for everyone. If it wasn't for helping to paying the bills, my wife would disown me.

It's mostly my fault because I feel terrible if I make people wait for stuff. I'm an extremely impatient person and I suspect others are too. There's nothing I hate more than letting someone down. I have a problem saying no because I love helping people and I get just as excited about their project (even if it's "another 69 Camaro") as I do about my own car. It's like the maid who has a filthy house or the mechanic that drives a clunker.

Yet, I still haven't gotten all the boring documentation and legal BS resolved. I keep procrastinating. As I said, I really need to. And I will definitely be getting the books Al recommended because I had no idea where to begin looking for info on that stuff. I wonder if they come on CD so I can listen while I'm working. Probably won't make for good inspiration though!

LOL what you just said and add a 71/2 month pregnant wife.

Everytime I look at a project car I might want to buy I get the you never gonna have time to run your business, draw and work on a car speech;)

I remember that post on the AF forums but back then I didnt bother as most of my stuff was done just to pass time.

I've always wondered what the fee is for a rendering, whats averege?

i'm glad to see this thread is off to a start. I've used an artist’s guild book for contracts and it also really helped me understand my rights. Even so, it's hard to then apply them with each situation being different. I understand that the law is basically on our side as the artist nearly 100%. Our work is copy written automatically and the copy right symbol can be used without any special permission ... however, I guess to get better results from a court if that should ever happen, registering our work is a good idea. It doesn't sound like it costs much either. This could be different now but I think they even have a way that allows you to video tape your work for X seconds, fit a lot of images on one tape and group register them for very little. None of the numbers are coming to me and I can't find the effin book now.

I've been getting prints from Staples on foam core and laminated ... it isn't cheap but I was really surprised by the results. It's really durable with the foam core, and the lamination won't quite stop bullets but it's good for everything else. :) I have a cannon home printer that'll only do 8.5X11 and it does a great job but its not professional quality or anything. So, I've got kinda expensive and kinda cheap ... i guess i'm interested in what others are doing in case there is some middle ground in there i'm missing or i might really like the sound of.

I remember a thing in PHR i think covering artists ... some of which i believe can be found around here and the prices seemed to be in the $200 - $300 range for something like a single rendering of the car. I wouldn't guess that convers anything special ... a drawing of a givin car with desired mods, in given artist's style ... the end. it's just alllll so much more complicated. it'd be real cool if it wasn't though.

It's great to see this discussion going on in here!

I too have been doing car renderings as a "hobby" more or less. I've been doing work as a graphic designer/illustrator for about 20 years now!

I've drawn everything from wildlife to aviation to automobiles. In all this time I have yet to develop a "price sheet" that will work for every project!
Most often it is "customized" or "negotiated" in order to fit the expectation/budget of the customer.

Ultimately, the final price is determined by you! But, just like other services, it needs to be a fair price for the skill level you can offer. Try to avoid quoting a price that is so low that you regret having to complete the project. You'll be miserable and your work may reflect that as well.

It also doesn't hurt to just simply ask the customer what price they had in mind.
You might also consider offering different options from "top of the line" to "very simple" and maybe a few options in between.

I've also done some rend'gs for speed parts as well!

I guess the main thing I'm trying to say here is to be flexible on everything but the pride in your work!

Well, it's late and I'm tired but I've been following this post and felt the need to contribute. Hopefully it'll make sense in the morning! :faint:

This is a great topic, especially since I would like to get started doing this (just not sure if I'm good enough). Between my model building, which has helped me be creative in 3-D, and doing renderings for an architect, I would love to combine my skills with my passion. I have done a few, and like ZVT havent charged anyone yet. I would imagine I would charge per hour, since some have been really quick and others take a while.

I would be very interested in the legal end. Doing fabrication drawings in my full time job, I know some about disclaimers and notices. I don't think I would have a problem with giving people what ever, as long as it's paid for. I am friends with Eric Brockmeyer, and I have never thought to ask him about this part. I'll see what he does.

Thanks again for starting this, and hope it keeps going.

Found this site pretty usefull.

http://www.rightsforartists.com/definitions.html

we need a few of the more full time guys to get in on this to keep it alive i think ... but i hope this talk encourages people to keep drawing and posting and get feedback rolling around - all of those more and more.

I just heard back from Eric, and he sees any further use of his drawings as more exposure unless they are going to use it for tee shirts or something where they would be making money. I guess he could go after TLC and Boyd, but thanks to them, a lot more people has seen his work.

that's true especially if you're talking about your stuff being on TV. when the losers show up and start using it for everything under the sun without ever telling you that they planned to - that's when it's a problem. course, they aren't very hard to spot when they first show up.
What are some of people's experiences with t-shirts? Does anyone actually get the printing done or do the printing themselves? Or mostly just do the art and call it done? The latter would be ideal i would think but I know there is a local guy here who offers the whole nine from start to finish .... how he does it I'm not sure.

He has no recourse with Boyd or TLC because Boyd comissions and pays for the work and TLC simply broadcasts them using it. And like he said, most exposure is good exposure and TLC and Boyd have been good to Eric.

In my experience, Most people are decent and honest so I simply get a down payment from first time clients to be sure they're serious before I dive into their project only to find they're broke or aren't really serious.

I don't do a contract in advance, I treat their down payment as their contract and when they pay for their artwork they commissioned, it becomes theirs and they can pretty much do whatever they want to with it. If it winds up getting stolen from a website or the like, then you and your client have rights but I wouldn't get too worked up unless it makes it onto t-shirts in Wal-Mart or a one-off wheel you designed winds up in someone's catalog.

If something truly needs copyrighted or trademarked, try www.legalzoom.com

As anyone who has worked with the public or in retail, you know there's some people who just can't be made happy and will always find something to complain about so try to avoid them or recognize them early on.

My best advice is there is no substitute for experience whatever it may be and cover your a$$ but don't get too worked up about copyright infringement or you'll protect yourself right out of a good reputation.

So then do most of you charge more for something that you already know is going to be used for other things than if you were just designing a build for some guy? Or is it just a case of this is how much my artwork costs and after that I'm done with it?

I only charge for the work I did. Beyond that, credit for the work is just fine with me. Like Jason and Eric said, it's free advertising. Logos are pretty much the only art I don't apply my signature to.

The design firm I work for doesn't get a cut on every single product we've designed for a client that is sold. We provide a service that was paid for by the client.

Yep, if some shop is going to build the car and use the image on their business cards and a few dozen t-shirts, have at it because it just means that many more people seeing the art.

Don't ever get taken advantage of but don't irritate clients trying to worry about getting taken advantage of before it ever happens.

As you build up your clientele, you'll also build experience that will help you determine how to handle such situations in the future.

A lot of good points here...
I've been relying on my artwork to put food on the table for some time now, and thus, if it's stolken, and I'm not getting paid, it takes food out of my kids' mouths.... On the flip-side, though, if I spent all day chasing my art, I'd never get anything done.

My best advice is to take the time to Copyright any work you have created as self-promotional, or with the intent to sell. It's inexpensive, and gives you full legal recourse when someone uses it without your permission.
As for creating art for clients, I view the art I have created for them as a product that they have purchased, and provide them with a contract, expressly granting them any rights they may neeed for future use of the artwork. This way, if I'm hit by a bus, whateveer, they have all rights in their possession, and there's no question. I like to see all sides protected.

As for down-payments, I agree with Jason: GET ONE. This way, everyone is serious, and there's no questions about what is owed upon delivery, and everyone is into the project on the same level. You're not wasting time on a project that is someone's momentary whim... and there's nothing worse than winding up with a half-finished rendering you can't do anything with.

Beware of trading work for empty promises... Granted, you'll have to start small and slow, but bear in mind that your work requires time, effort, and your talent... Make it worth your while, but at the same time, promote, promote, promote! A few well-placed pieces can bring in more work, so don't be afraid to trade some time and effort for exposure! Just be certain that all bases are covered.

Last... and you guys are doing it already: NETWORK. Talk with other artists, share ideas, get a feel for who is best at what, and learn whatever you can! I've refered clients to other artists at times, just knowing that, in our initial conversations, that someone else may be better for the job, due to style, influences, or a certain vision. I'd rather see a client paired with the right guy (or gal) for the job, than try to force something.

I, like Ben, sign almost all of my art, save for logos and identity... a credit line is a sure-fire way to more business. Just be discreet... after all, nobody is buying a 14x17 rendering for your 8-inch signature.:D

I sure am glad you got in on this Brian. I think if there are any new artists reading, they're getting some great help and I'm getting answers to all sorts of questions. Thanks to everyone and I hope even more of the "big wigs" chime in soon. With any luck, prospective clients will read through this too and see how fair and professional everyone is here and maybe realize that everyone has to start somewhere.

Not sure how many of you guys are going to be at SEMA but would those that are like to get together out there?

Yeah, I tried to initiate something last year but everyone seemed to have conflicting schedules. I met a lot of the others though just walking around and/or checking in via cell phone anyway. It was awesome talking "shop" with everyone and I look forward to seeing everyone again this year if possible.

I really wish I could go, but it doesn't look like my schedule will allow it at this time. I would love to meet some of you guys.

I am up for any type of meeting of the artist/designer minds! I will be working the days so nights are better for me but I can try to make a day meeting. Looking forward to seeing that mustang Ben.

Carter

Thanks for all the info guys it definetly helps me out.

I have couple general questions.

What size do you normally send your client the final rendering.

When you save the file and send it as a jpeg do you save it as an RGB or CMYK.

You and me both Carter, I'm dying to see this thing finished. Are you working at the HOK booth again? I'll be sure to drop by to give you a hard time!:D I'll probably be using the Nemesis Motorsports booth as a home base but spending most of my time walking around.

Z- I bought an Epson that prints up to 13" wide so I can do 11X17. If a client asks for larger, I charge them for the print that I outsource.

I always work in RGB, save jpgs for email proofs and print out as PSD

Since this is the place to ask questions, I was wondering what type of equipment (hard & software) everyone uses. I would really like to start doing computer renderings, but I hear different stories on what I should get from different people. So, what do you guys use? I use the the old fashioned marker, pastel & colored pencils.

Thanks in advance for your replies. Also, thanks for starting this topic.

I use Adobe Illustrator and I wish I was good with markers cause I seriously think I might change or at least do half and half. You can kinda sorta duplicate the marker look with Illustrator but you probably can with something like Photoshop or Corel Paint just as well I suppose, since they both have "marker" brushes, I think. All the different digital styles bring their own cool look, so I can't imagine being in your shoes and trying to "pick one" you know? I just sorta fell into Illustrator in school. I'm not sure how to put it but it's like, any kind of medium takes so much learning it's hard to just "try them out" I guess. But at the same time, I'm a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none ... the only reason I say anything at all is cause I know Illustrator and was taught how to use it and I really love it, which makes it hard to take the time to learn something else as well as I know Illustrator. I dunno if that makes sense or not. I wanna but I'm reluctant, and I dunno what I'd do if I had to start it all over again and pick one. I'm spoiled by being in the ctrl Z generation anyway.

Thanks. I know there is a lot out there. I guese that is sort of why I was asking. I would like to start doing digital, I was just wanting to see if there is one program that is easier to use than others. I know it has to do with how familiar you are with a program. I have access to photoshop, but the guide is the size of a phone book. A little intimidating. Also, I am curious to see how many people use a wakum (spelling?) tablet. I can't figure out how you can draw on the computer and get the proportions right. I have a friend who draws the car by hand, then scans it & does all the work on computer. I figured I would start there. Just seeing what other approaches there are.

I use every medium under the sun but I have been using more photoshop than anything lately. It became a design industry standard quite a while ago. Whether you use a Wacom tablet or good ol' pencil/paper and scanner, linework and perspective are vital to a great rendering. That's something you can't fake and no matter how well you render, something just won't look right.

I actually prefer to do markers, colored pencils, pastels, gouache, etc, but the ability to "undo" and do multiple variations is key to time management on a project. I typically only do it when doing a portrait for a gift or something that won't need adjustments.

Thanks Ben. Those were my thoughts. That is why I would like to learn to go digital. It would also help in storage as they would not smudge & the digital markers would not bleed. I totally agree about perspective. You have to have a good solid form in proper perspective along with good proportions for it to look right. I guess I know what I'm am going to have to do, but I am interested in what everyone else is using.

Mike I use photoshop cs3 and sometimes I would use Xara.I also have a wacom intuos 3 tablet.Most of my work is done from the software as I am hopeless at pencils and markers.

It really all depends on what you're comfortable with I tried illustrator and couldnt get the hang of it cus i started out using photoshop and know the program well. So go with what you know.

I would suggest you maybe buy thom taylor's "how to draw cars like a pro" and How to draw cars the hot wheels way(cant think of the name or author right now)
Both have good tutorials on digital rendering also check out these tuts.

http://www.designertechniques.com/na.../tutorials.htm

http://husseindesign.deviantart.com/...III-I-35243447

Zee

I have several DVDs from the gnomon workshop.

Cool Car DVD's

For production work, digital is the way to go......

Carter

Great links guys! This is one my brother sent me.

http://www.fengzhudesign.com/

He does digitally how I do the old fashioned way. He also goes backwards from the majority of what I have heard and uses only a couple of layers, but he also shows how to use the wakum tablet. Here is a link to a teacher I had while at the Columbus College of Art & Design (although he hasn't had time to go digital either.).

http://www.jdorr.com/

Again, thanks for the great links.

oh, yeah. i sketch the car first and scan it (or take a digital pic cause my scanner is small). i think any digital art starts this way ... at least kinda. i'm pretty sure if you want to really "draw" on screen as if you're sketching, you need a large tablet. I have a small wacom that I just use for digital "painting" like in photoshop because it doesn't really need to be large for that. I find sketching to be awkward with the tablet though because when i sketch i turn my paper completely upside down, on its side, at funny angles ... all sorts of stuff. the tablet doesn't lend itself to that much. i use 2 monitors so i have illustrator open on the left with my sketch placed in it, then ref pics on the right screen open in PS. I don't really use the ref pics A LOT in the drawing(by drawing i mean in Illustrator) portion, mostly for how I want my coloring to look but they're good for both and to keep me on track. photoshop doesn't make your art look a certain way, so if i was you i'd give it a shot. it can give you so many looks and just one little trick you pick up can be something no one else is really doing EVEN though they use the same "medium" technically. That makes it pretty fun. you can go from very conceptual looking to hyper photorealistic using techniques that are actually pretty similar. anyway, my sketches are really rough and don't show much. it's like you were already thinking, for some of us (*cough* ME *cough*) getting proportions right is tricky and I have to use the sketch to work out the kinks THEN go digital from there.

I grew up on Taylor, Stanford and Foose so I went right to pen and ink and have tried to develop my own style and look.

I like the warmth and feel of a hand-drawn rendering and I have a low tolerance for using the computer so it's half don't want to and half can't do it.

There's some neat varieties of looks from digital formats and I really appreciate the various styles and techniques because of all the different software available but I have to say that nothing beats a Stanford rendering. It is fine art and nothing less.

You said it! Brian is all-pro and an all around great guy. He has a great style and a very wise business savvy that a lot of us creative types don't possess.

It's very cool of Scott to help support the arts and for us to have a virtual sit down like this and get to know other guys in the business.

Ditto on both accounts! Though, I think you're being modest Jason...you've got one hell of a following as well for good reason!


Also, you're right on the money when it comes to inspiration. (Taylor/Stanford/Foose) are 3 of the primary reasons why I started doing this.

Thanks Jason! There is good reason for the following you have! (Ben, good word on that! It IS like some following!) Man, you have been INSTRUMENTAL in my getting going on the right foot, and it's a pleasure to have you as a friend. (you'll get the "good" Christmas card this year.)

Ben, you're a tremendously talented guy, as well, and it was a pleasure to meet you last year!

I'm no business prodigy... Without my wife, I'd be eating leftovers from a dumpster someplace. All I know is what a wise man (and great artist!) told me: "Sell YOURSELF. Promote YOURSELF. Believe in what you can do, and successs will come." Still working on that last part... :_paranoid

Thanks, as well, to Scott for providing an arena in which to hve these impromptu round-tables. We have a community loaded with great talent, and it's of benefit to all involved. Clients can choose from a list of great talent and personalities, and we get to know one another, and have a sounding board for ideas that share the same passion and livelihood. I'm flat-out stoked to be in such company. (...and Steve has a smorgasboard to choose from for Dream Cars!)

Anyway, with the diverse styles here, I can say that I learn something each time I see a piece from all of you... little tricks that make me say "Cool! Why didn't I think of that?!" ...and in that sharing of ideas and techniques, I think we all push even further in our work.

My first influence (besides not liking Math class) was Charlie Smith... that man has vision, and such a clean technique... And is a great friend, as well. Thom Taylor, Steve Stanford, Jim Smith... all were like heroes (OK, still are...) to me. Today, with guys like Chip Foose --IMO, one of the greatest things to happen to this industry-- the new kids in this field have more great work to inspire, and the bar is continually raised.

My work starts as a series of pencil roughs, and eventually gets scanned in, and re-worked digitally... This technique is part necessity and part convenience, as it allows for some changes to be made without a lot of drama, and reetains the original, hand-drawn look.

I was a Fine Art major in school, and the value in that was having a TON of drawing classes... my best advice to the new guys is DRAW, DRAW, DRAW.... OBSERVE, and then DRAW MORE. Draw coats. Draw trees... hinges, mechanical stuff, organic stuff... there is no better tool in your arsenal than being able to draw. I keep a notebook handy at all times, and fill it with notes, ideas, sketches... my wife is adept at grabbing it while we're driving and I yell out thoughts like "89 Camry markers for the blue car!". I take looooooooong walks in the wrecking yard, making notes, studying shapes, measuring parts. Research and reference materials are king in this game. What's a '60 Edsel heater control look like? I can find one in my library. Will I need that? Maybe someday. There are always great books on the discount rack at Barnes and Noble. Pick some up.

My work history was mostly in auto parts and body repair, so I know contours, parts, scale... all things I apply to every design. Again, observation is great, no only when drawing, but also when understanding your client's needs and wishes...

Man, I've been carrying on... I stop here.

Thanks again guys, and everyone, keep up the great work!