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Anybody use Campbell Auto Restoration Sub-Frame?
Was reading the October Issue of PHR, article, "Orange Crush".
There is a very Bad Ass 69 Camaro with a subframe by, "Campbell Auto Restoration". Front tire widths 295 with no rubbing. Splined adjustable Sway Bar Adjustable UCA's Very nice Roll Cage etc etc Has anyone had a chance to check out their subframe? Anyone done any business with them? How was your experience? Quality of workmanship? Customer Service? If nothing else, check out the article. Other than the Big Block that is in it, it looks like an awesome PT/Corner Carver. Ty |
they are local to me, and i know that all the work they do is absolutely top notch.
when i was looking for a shop to do my body work i looked at them a few times. the only reason that i didn't go with them was because: a) they did not have room for me anywhere in the near future at all b) they were waaay to expensive for what i could afford but i will vouch for their quality. |
There doing some work on a members car here,Mazspeed (Mike Bassi).Im pretty sure some of there employee's are members here too.
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Everything they do is top notch, therefore you will pay. I had an indepth conversation with Mark Schwartz from CAR and he really amazed me with his knowledge of suspension...lost me real quick!
They deal with Very high end customers that expect only the best, so if you can afford it, go for it! Matt |
My car is there now. They have high quality work, and the crew is great and friendly. Kevin from CAR posts here as "kp touring" There subframe is incredible, but not for everybody. The subframe thay make is for racing with a bit of street thrown in. Every frame is a custom deal built for a customer who wants over the top adjustments and 7 inches of travel. It's also a very costly subframe. They are the ones that redid the suspension side of my fatman subframe and it handles like no other fatman ever made.
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Mazspeed:
Thanks for chiming in. I too spoke with kevin. He was very friendly and very informative. I am having some information sent to me regarding their work. When you say, "There subframe is incredible, but not for everybody. The subframe they make is for racing with a bit of street thrown in. Every frame is a custom deal built for a customer who wants over the top adjustments and 7 inches of travel. It's also a very costly subframe. They are the ones that redid the suspension side of my fatman subframe and it handles like no other fatman ever made." Would you mind elaborating on: -"Incredible, but not for everyone"? -"subframe they make is for racing with a bit of street thrown in"? (Would it be a challenge for it to be used on the street? If so, why? (In your opinion) (How is it different than the, DSE, AM etc?) -"Every frame is a custom deal built for a customer who wants over the top adjustments and 7 inches of travel" (I understand "Custom Made", when you mention, "Over the top adjustments", can you elaborate on this? "What all did they do for your "Fatman" Frame? I'm getting the idea that like LD's "3-Link" there architecture/engineering, performance, and challenge of installation is a step above both in quality and price than the more advertised subframes there are on the market. (Is this a fair statement?) To which of course means that 99% of the people out there would probably not be able to appreciate the engineering that went into it. Therefore the other companies are appealing to a completely different market segment. (Those who also probably can't utilize the performance of the less expensive products, but don't have or don't want to spend the extra amount on that type of product);-) I've spoken to many of the subframe suppliers and seen many of their products. All the ones I have seen so far have been top notch, (I would be proud to have any of them in my car), this question was meant to just understand the difference between a car like "Fuel", and a F-16 jet. Both are excellent for their intended purpose, but not necessarily to be compared to each other. (Oranges and apples) I hope I have not offended anyone in this post. As you know by now I have tried to really understand the different products being offered to the PT market, especially in regards to, Front Subframes, Rear Suspension choices, and the different engine packages that are able to be Purchased. It is truly a great time to be restoring/Modifying Classic cars. Thanks for your help. Best Regards, Ty O'Neal |
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Keep in mind they don't sell that subframe as a kit. They will only sell it if THEY install it since it's quite complicated.
I shot the car and the craftsmanship was top notch. |
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CAR sub-frame
Ty, Steve and the rest,
We have made some tuning changes on Steve's Camaro. We've have added a little more front bar and have change to spring rate and shock valving at all 4 corners. Also we changed the power steering servo to light it up and add a p/s cooler. Mike is correct our frame is built to the customer's car, this away we can try to meet all needs and wants of our customer. We have many options regarding shocks, springs, steering, master cylinder type and placement, brakes, track width, brakes and so on. FYI Mike Bassi's front sway bar is a hollow Speedway Engineering custom width bar with aluminum arms. We are also doing track testing on a 69 Vette right now with our front suspension and should be able soon to post some numbers on it. Thanks to all for the kind words in regards to our work. Rupp I'll be sending you pictures of Nikki Broscoe's 68 Camaro it is something that Johnny will dig. Kevin Campbell Auto Restoration aka CAR |
Kevin:
Thanks for taking the time to answer. Please take any questions from me at face value. In no way are they to try to be offensive, like being interrogated. The email forum doesn't relate voice tone or expression, so I wouldn't want anything to be inferred beyond the actual question itself. That said: Was Steve's '69 Camaro your 1st, First Generation Camaro? You mentioned making some changes to Steve's Camaro. If someone like myself wanted to hire your services, and I had my car sent to you. Would it be correct when it was shipped back to me, or would I need to re-ship it to you for subtle/Tuning changes like Steve's is going through now? How would this be handled from long distance? I would think that building a front subframe for another 69 Camaro would be a similar exercise as building the first one. Of course track width, choice of springs, steering sensitivity, brakes, master cylinder etc. have to be added to it, however isn't good automotive geometry for performance handling a basic series of mathematical formula's combined with the proper engineering to execute the results of the math? I do realize that with all the additional things that have to be added to the subframe that the proper balance has to be achieved so they work well in unison with each other. Is it possible to have the work done at your shop, and know that as it is set up so you have a middle of the road tune. Something that would be better than anything you can get anywhere else, but not optimized because the specific Track, Weather, duration, speeds and so on are not known? This was the way Mark Magers handled the LD 3-link. As he set it up, it handles great, however if I decided to really specialize in a certain type of activity. (Drag Racing vs. Auto Cross vs. Road Racing vs. Performance Street Driving) The unit had built into it enough flexibility to enhance it's performance for any of the type of driving I might want to engage in. Is this part of the goals of your product? With your subframes, is there a book or manual of some type that comes with it that would help guide the individual buyer to at least be able to tune the suspension in the right direction for the desired performance change? How have other customers dealt with this issue? I am really looking forward to receiving the Fax from you. Do you have a series of pictures you could post showing the types of options or the level of quality that make your product stand out from the crowd? My project does not have a specific time of completion nor a specific budget, I do however want to make sure when my car is complete that I have researched things to the best of my ability and as much as possible have no regrets with the parts I have chosen to put in the car. I do intend to really learn to drive it correctly and attempt utilize the superb engineering that has gone into it. Thanks for reading. I know it is long winded, but I'm sure there are other people on this site that would appreciate knowing more about your company. Best Regards and Thanks. Ty O'Neal |
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There sub frame has been around for a long time if its still the same one, i remember reading about it many years ago 5 or so seems about right. if you search around on pro-touring also i am sure you can find some more info. |
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Hello Kevin!!! Really cool at you had time to step in. Plase send some pics of your suspension work . And the vette !!! Tell me more about it :cheers: |
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I'm sure Kevin has pics..... |
Hey Guys, Ill try and see if I can take a few photos of the suspension stuff for you.
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MAZSPEED:
"Hey Ty. I would have to ask, what are you going to do with your car? Their subframe when I say it's not for everyone, it's because of price, time it takes to build, and intended purpose. If it's a street driven car, then Art's frame and or DSE's subframe is good for those and more. The CAR subframe is a frame that's intended use is racing with some street duty, but it's a racing frame. It's that "over the top" kind of thing. Like I said it's an over the top racing subframe. The mods made to my subframe is custom wound Eibach springs, custom koni hydraulic front shocks, custom speedtech (I think that's the name of the bar) 3 piece front swaybar and additional plates welded in for the upper and lower A arm supports." =============================================== I REALLY want - Take lessons learn to drive the car correctly (Fairly hard) - Auto X - Open Track Days - Occasional Drags - Street Driving - Hang out at the local shows and have something different Let's face it, most of the people who have it probably REALLY don't need it. I am looking at all my options. I wanted the car to have the LD 3-Link, because based on what I could tell, and read about it here and on CC, it is a well respected first class piece. At this point I don't know much of anything that could be put in there that would be a better choice. Do I need it? NO Did I want it? Hell Yes!!! Bottom line, I've been waiting 26 years to get another '69 Camaro and make it as Kick Ass as I could, this along with really learning how to drive well. I don't need the car, hell we have 5 cars as it is already without the '69. I have it because I wanted it, and the Doctors said after my wreck, "Go out and have some fun and do something you've always wanted to do". Well the truth is told, and that is it. Irresponsible? Probably Do I care? Nope ;-) Is that an answer thats seems honest? Having a good time, Ty O'Neal Lateral-1 |
Sub-frame from, well you know
Ty,
Got tied up working on Steve Broscoe other Camaro today will try and shoot a fax to you in the AM. BTW you are right nobody needs what we build! Now want that's a different story. Kevin |
I love the attitude Ty, do I need it no, do I want it, yes. That about sums up most of the people here. And you're right, all these parts are not going to do much good if you can't drive it and enjoy it at it's limits, and I do recommend driving schools of some kind. Also, you already have a pretty killer car, if you don't mind me asking, how much are you willing to spend for the over the top type of car you seem to be seeking?
Also I didn't get a chance today to run by the shop and snap photos. I worked a bit today and it ran long, tomorrow is also no good, unless I get done early, but I do plan on taking my camera to work anyways to snap some website photos of our work, maybe I can stop by the shop and take a few, maybe. If not Wed might be my only day. Is the frame out and about Kevin? |
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I have always heard to do it, and taken the advice of people who recommend taking lessons to learn anything correctly. I shot action Pistol Competition prior to my wreck and I took a bunch of lessons and I have a few trophies to show for it. As far as I'm concerned it's some of the best money you can spend if you really and truly want to learn to do something well. I don't live to far from the Ennis Drag Strip where John Force just crashed (Hope he will be all right) and not far from the Texas Motor Speedway. There is also a "Racing Country Club", being put in just south of Dallas and Fort Worth area. As far as expense? I don't know yet. Part of the problem has been learning about what is really being offered for these cars. I know I've bugged the hell out of people by bringing up the different subframes and attempting to distinguish the, "Real" differences between them. In the past when looking for a competitive pistol you speak to people who shoot, then you find what they shoot and why. There comes a point when you find the, "Next Level", of quality/precision/craftmanship etc. At that point, you have to decide is that "next" level for you. I do believe I have found a product which would represent that "Next" level. I want to learn and understand what it does and doesn't offer compared to the other subframes. (I also would like to match the front suspension of Marks with something of equal quality on the front end) If after looking over this, "Over the Top", Super Duper, Nitro Burning, tire shredding, front subframe and decide it would be fun to have, Since they have a waiting time, I'll put the money together during that time and buy it. If not, I will go with one of the other fine subframes out on the market. I know C.A.R. requires that they put their subframe in themselves. Unfortunately, I have had my right shoulder worked on 3 times and replaced twice. I don't have the type of strength and dexterity needed to perform this type of task yet. (I hope I will someday) So I would need to pay someone to do it for me anyway. (At least the Lions share) As I've mentioned in a earlier post, I have contacted several rendering artist about producing my two demential Camaro for me. Before I start that, I need to make up my mind which direction I want the car to go in. This is part of that decision making process research. My Project doesn't have a hard time line yet, but I would like it completed in the next 3 years or earlier. If it is going to be apart, I want to do as much as I can to it at once so I can continue to drive it as often as possible. I'm not going to be spending 300k on it that is for sure. For me, that much money needs to be invested making money, however I imagine it will take 80-100k to do a pretty damn nice job on it. (At least good enough for me) Kind of depends how hard I drive it. If it winds up being real hard, my paint jobs are not going to be show quality by any stretch. I'm not looking to fritter money away, because, "Bang for the Buck", is always a big part of my decision process. Give me your thoughts, you know basically what's in the car and the condition of it. Is my price range crazy low? BTW: Anyone who reads this if they are not a sleep by now, give me your honest thoughts on the level of front suspension that would be of equal quality to the LD 3-link already in it. Plus I want to make sure the front and the back of the car will work well with each other, from a technical point of view. Thanks again for all your interest and help.:bow: Best Regards, Ty O'Neal P.S. Pssst! It would be fun to have something worthy of being in a magazine someday. Don't tell anyone this though.;) |
Hey Ty. I spend far too much on my car in some areas and wish I had a clear plan from the get go. I should have done what you are doing now, so this leads me to believe that you are far smarter then I. Ill toss a few ideas your way though. What I would do it if I was you. You’re mostly transfixed on a total suspension overhaul. I think there are 3 subframes out there that are a cut above the rest. DSE, Art's, and 21st century. Art also has a full frame with a built in 3 link on the back for the camaro. The front half is just like their subframe, its killer. It's a full frame for a car. If I was doing this over, that would be the deal I would go with. Here is something else. Time Machines has put together or is putting together an Art frame with the 21st century c5 rear for the camaro. They are cutting the back half off for the c5 rear. This sounds pretty cool. But you would need a top notch shop to do it. This alone may eat up a substantial piece of your budget, but you would basically have a c5 suspension camaro. Personally, I would do the Art full frame and call it a day. Lot's of fab work, but ohhhh what a killer car you would have. If you don't want to spend that kind of cash on all that fab work, get a DSE sub, some subframe connectors, and spend your money doing other improvments.
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MAZSPEED Thanks for the quick reply. I really like the LD 3-link that is already in the car. I've hit it a couple of times and it tracks straight, no hop, and plants the 315 rear tires solid to the ground. Plus it looks like a piece of engineering jewelry. I hear more oohs and aahs from people when they bend down to look at it than I would with a couple of 13 year boys seeing their first Playboy. (Who knows, It might even cause the same effect?) It's really nice when engineers and professional mechanics take the time to check it out. It's truly is a fine piece of equipment. Also when I bought the car from Mark he mentioned it had been a big part of the building of his business. As a small business guy, I understand and I want to keep those roots as part of the car. Lateral-1 lives on. Given this extra news, what would you suggest? |
Sub Frame
Ty,
Check your fax machine, you should have 7 pages. Kevin |
Ty, let Mark come up with something for the front if you want something comparable and on the same level as his 3 link. I know there was something in the works, but don't know what ever became of it.
Mike |
Pics...plese:willy:
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Kevin: The magazine article, "Handling Anatomy", is very good, however I need to know if there are pages 41, 42 and 43 as part of the article? I received 40, 44 and 45, plus the general information about your business. Please let me know when you have a chance. Thanks, Ty O'Neal BTW: Do you have a car posted on this or another web site that shows off your product/products? Also, While you are dialing peoples cars in, do you keep performance records as to what the finished car is capable of? (Standard Automotive performance data) I would like to be able to have the data available where an, "Apples to Apples", comparison can be made against other high performance vehicles, so I can see and understand what performance I would be buying for the money. -Weight Distribution (50%/50% etc. After restoration) -Skid Pad information as a fraction of lateral g force (Clockwise and CCW) -Speed though Standard Slalom Course (70 ft. Cone Spacing, or which ever Testing Method that is an industry standard) Etc. Etc. Thanks again. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Best Regards, Ty O'Neal |
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Kevin: Quote: Originally Posted by kp.touring Ty, Check your fax machine, you should have 7 pages. Kevin ======================================== Kevin: The magazine article, "Handling Anatomy", is very good, however I need to know if there are pages 41, 42 and 43 as part of the article? I received 40, 44 and 45, plus the general information about your business. Please let me know when you have a chance. Thanks, Ty O'Neal BTW: Do you have a car posted on this or another web site that shows off your product/products? Also, While you are dialing peoples cars in, do you keep performance records as to what the finished car is capable of? (Standard Automotive performance data) I would like to be able to have the data available where an, "Apples to Apples", comparison can be made against other high performance vehicles, so I can see and understand what performance I would be buying for the money. -Weight Distribution (50%/50% etc. After restoration) -Skid Pad information as a fraction of lateral g force (Clockwise and CCW) -Speed though Standard Slalom Course (70 ft. Cone Spacing, or which ever Testing Method that is an industry standard) Etc. Etc. Thanks again. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Best Regards, Ty O'Neal |
Hey Ty. You would really need to come down and check it out for yourself. Their website is not that great at the moment, but they have a very high end clientele. The shop is pretty cool, like a big candy store of killer cars. The parts they have are not always there, like their subframe but they do have a corner weight machine as what was done to my car to tune the suspension, but they don't have anything like a skid pad in the area. They typically take the car at the customers request to Thunderhill which has a nice runout just in case. All the performance stuff I would bet is kept on file or on computers. They are race car oriented. You really need to call Kevin and spend some time chatting with him. He's a great guy to talk to and to pick his brain, as he is a wealth of info. I never get board talking to him. A very down to earth guy and he won't BS you.
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What we build are toys and we try are best to give the customer more than what they want. And as I say in our talk on the phone and Mike's post here is that the best way to judge what we do is to visit us and see our work first hand. And just to give you an idea of what to expect in the shop the long terbig projects are as follows: 2 early Mustangs a 65 fastback and a 66 convert both with coil-over front suspension, power rack and pinion steering, Roush 427 IR small blocks, T-56 speeds, custom Budnik wheels, 6 piston Baer/CAR brakes, the convert is also getting a custom built 3 link with lay downed coil-overs. we are also doing a total restoration on a 65 Cobra Dragon Snake for the owners of the Mustangs. Building a 63 Nova convert with a LS-1, T-56, Alston front and a modified TCI 4 bar rear, with 17X8 front and 18X11 rear. A recreation of a 70 Trans Am AAR Cuda being built from orig build pictures. There are also many small projects like Mike Bassi's Camaro. We usaully have 8-12 cars going at anytime. Kevin |
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