Famous last words...
 

"It's a bet!"

:willy:

This is about how the conversation went down:

Buddy: "I love muscle cars, man, but they can't hang with my [97 E36] M3 on the track. Not for the money, at least."

Me: "That's total crap. I bet I could build up a sexy muscle car that could destroy that German turd of your for less than you paid for it!" (I like his M, but I gotta give him crap about it.)

Buddy: "You really think so? Well, what are you willing to bet?"

Me: "I bet I can build up good old American Iron to run a faster road course lap than you in your M. If I can't beat you, you can have the car. But if I win, you have to pay half the build total, and I keep the car."

Buddy: "Ok, but I've always wanted a 2nd Gen Camaro. Try to make that beat the M3 and it's a deal."

Me: "Ok! It's a Bet!"

Ok, so I paraphrased a little, but the context is there. Ok, 2nd Gen Camaro it is. Given that I am a big fan of the Transformers movie, and it happens to have a 2nd Gen Camaro in it, we're going with that car.

Enter Project BumbleBeast. It's lame, I know, but I needed a name. :unibrow:

The challenge is to replicate the look of the Transformers 1976 Camaro, as closely as possible to provide track ready performance, with a cap of $12K for the entire project.

So far, we're on track. I got the Camaro, a 1975 Model with a missing fender, no engine, and minor rust that I can fix. Total cost: $400

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...l/CAEVQN8F.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y29...l/CA0HMZW9.jpg

I traded some stockpiled parts for a complete T56 setup. I'll need to figure out the mounting and hydraulics, of course, but with your help, I think we can do it!

I also have a complete running 472 BBC that was donated to the cause.

So far I have the car and I have an engine and transmission that should easily be able to give me track worthy performance. I'll need to get a bigger compressor so I can do the paint, otherwise I doubt I'll come in under budget. So I'll be learning to paint cars, too. Not a bad skill to learn, I think.

And now I turn to you, my friends of the road course, for help in making a list of parts to complete the project. Keep in mind what I'm trying to accomplish. I need to beat a stock 1997 M3 around a road course. This car has 250 HP, legendary handling, and will be driven by an above average driver. I've got a 472 ci Big Block Chevy, 6 gears, and a much heavier car that was not designed to run a road course.

Me, I'm 28, I'm a Physicist for the DoD, I've been doing my own car work since I could lift a 1/2" wrench, I've designed aftermarket performance parts for a few car companies in my off time, I can weld (but not that well, need to work on that) and I hate losing bets.

And I love a challenge! :captain:

That 472 BB will hurt in weight transfer.
I'd go with something like an alum. headed small block etc.
That extra 200lbs on the front wont help in cornering one bit.
Good thing is, you've came to the right place and will find alot of answers here.

I thought about that. I may end up selling the BBC for something else. But it was free, so it helps the budget. If I go with an aftermarket front subframe, which is likely, many of them are lighter than the stock unit. Martz claims ~200 lbs lighter, which does offset the weight somewhat for the front, but enough? I do not know.

I found this forum by accident, and it seems to be the kind of place I need to hang out more.

Awesome first post, welcome aboard. :thumbsup:

Was there anything said in your agreement about tires? Can you run slicks? :unibrow:

Actually....technically....I think I can..... :evil:

I'd start with the best tires/slicks that you can run and build the car around that... Make it light and make it stick.

Anyone think I can mount the T56 in the rear like a 'Vette? :lol:

I need the car to be streetable. That was another detail I left out. I need ot be able to drive it to work, like he does his M.

Dude, I am TOTALLY down to help out on this project. Where are you in Richmond?

There ya go! There's the attitude I like to hear! I live out in Mechanicsville, man!

To be clear ... all you have to do is show up with that car and beat him? It doesn't have to look good (at least not at race time)? it only has to function... right? If so you shouldn't worry about paint, body work, interior – in fact you should strip the car as much as possible - even if he said it has to be close to stock weight .. you want to put the weight in the right places. I assume he gave you some cap on the build cost (what is your budget)?. I'd put the money in the drive-train, suspension and tires; skip the cosmetics. After you win and recoup half the build cost .. then finish up.

Also - I'll assume you'll take the time to go drive the course you'll be on (if you haven't already). If your just starting in track racing you may want to gets some instruction in some live situations.

... Also I do agree a good set of tires is a must/priority.

I live just off the Glenside exit off 64. I'm quite serious about helping out, let me know.

It's gotta be a streetable, daily drivable car. So really, being a beater is kinda out of the question. Body work has to be done, no rust holes, etc. Paint is a nice to have, but not necessary I think. However, a man's gotta learn sometime, right? Has to be comfortable and drivable, essentially like his M, street to track.

I'll be running DOT slicks, probably. The build total has to be $12K or under. I can barter and sell off my stockpile of parts to augment the funds.

It'll be at VIR. I've been on the course multiple times, so I'm decently familiar with it. I'm no pro driver, but I know the course.

That's not far at all! You're hired! I hope you work for beer and Mt. Dew! :lol:

Can you weld body panels? Paint? Figure out how to adapt a push style LS1 hydraulic clutch to an old BBC?

Wow does this sound exciting. Subscribed!!

No, no, and no...but I can correctly identify an alternator on 4 out of 7 attempts. And lift heavy stuff.

All those answers are acceptable. But the most important question is...

Do you want to learn?

:D

There will be a new thread in the projects page once I start getting pictures, and get the car in the garage. I'll let everyone know!

Wait, how'd you get an LS7 Malibu and not know how to do any of that?!

Killer thread .... good luck and kick his asss!
D

Sometimes entering contests pays off! Optima rebuilt the car for him a year ago...you could say he is a very lucky guy!!

That's incredible!

So it'll be a good thing to have him help me? Maybe some of that luck will rub off! :bow:

Thanks! I aim to!

:evil:

How big do I need the turbo's to be for a 472 or 502 BBC.

:evil:

Well, I bought MY car to learn on then luck kinda stepped in, so yes.

That's cool. It'll be a good opportunity for you, cuz if you screw it up, well, it's not your car. :lol:

awesome first post... like it was said.. keep it simple, light and buisness looking.. take a look at nelson racings 2.gen, its flat green and still awesome looking..

there are many dollars to be saved buying used nascar stuff on ebay, race brakes, spindles steering components and so on... the BBC with aluminum heads might not be perfect weight wise, but the Hp will definately giv eyou an edge, especially if you have some decent straights on the track.. just set it as far rearward as possible

if there is anything i can do to help, let me know..

just off the top of my head i only have a pair of BBC long tube headers to donate to the cause... but let me know if you are interested

Is there a time limit for completion? Does your BBC have iron heads?

I have no headers, so these would be very welcome!

Also, since I'm not that up on NASCAR stuff on ebay, if you could point me in the right direction to some links, I'd really appreciate it! :bow:

Not really. I've got a year, year and a half or so. I travel a lot for work, so working on th eproject will come in spurts. He works here, too, so he gets the schedule issues.

I dunno. I need to go get it next weekend.

You might want to hit up alot of the subframe companies to sponsor you with one of their subs. This would be an excellent way for them to demonstrate how good their product really is, not just claims and skewed magazine articles, but an average joe that, with company ABC's product in it, smoked one of the best handling production cars out their! There's a certain company with 3 letters in their name that are starting to make your year subs and rear suspensions. They are one of the best companies out their!
Same deal with the other parts(Brakes, tires, etc.)
This, and the $50 paint job(LOL!), just might bring you in on budget!

Good Luck!

John

:lol: So you're thinking rustoleum and a roller, eh? :willy:

That particluar subframe is one of my favorites. The Jim Meyer unit is also very very pretty.

I just saw this thread. I love it, but that M3 is a great handling car. I would go with a used ls1-2 if you can find one. That big block is going to kill you on that budget. The Martz subframe is light, but very flimsy, not a good subframe. You might go with DSE's subframe as it's a very good product, get some steel wheels with some R888's. His M3 cost 60k plus, what is your budget on this car?

Nah, his M cost him $12K. He bought it used last year, it's a 97.

I still think I can win on the track. I mean, he's got a great handling car, but that puny 2.5L engine with 250 HP shouldn't be all that hard to destroy. It's not an E46 333 HP machine.

Yeah but unless there are a lot of straights he's gonna kill you in the corners! Especially if he has some seat time! Can you try and use the stock sub and maybe do the Guldstrand mod? Can you do the Guldstrand mod on 3rd gens? Maybe some UCA's and spindles that can give you better geometry along with more camber.

Try and center as much of the mass as you can. Trying to set up a 'vette transaxle in your car will probably take you over your budget. I would opt for a good used LS1. New heads and a cam. 5 speed. Stiffer springs and adjustable shocks so you can dial it in. PHB or Watts? Truck Arm?

John

When this project gets done, I think we need to make it a :lateral: event and show up in force. In the unlikely event DDY ROCKET's Camaro comes up short, I'm sure somebody else can represent!

:lol:

Awesome!

Though there ain't no way I'm letting that M3 beat me. Just not going to happen! However, the more American Muscle that can show up and beat on him, the better!

:lateral:

We can do "Shake and Bake" like in Talladega Nights!:rofl:

John

But we may need little baby Jesus's help.

Random Thoughts by me!
 

Aftermarket Sub-Frame - I think this one piece alone will help to blow your budget out the water. I would try to stick with the stock subframe and talk to someone about upgrades to it - ie: DSE, SC&C. ATS makes spindles for the 2nd gens too. You are also going to want sub-frame connectors.

I think I'm P.C. here cuz these are all site sponsors - if not edit out.

http://detroitspeed.com/

http://www.scandc.com/faqs.htm

http://www.t56kit.com/

I've seen some cars with leaf spring rears perform very well, depending on budget you could probably get a set of leaf springs to work well for you.

Oh - get some good Shocks!

Just my opinion, but the weight savings from an LS series engine or just a well built small block w/ aluminum heads would help more than the $7K you could easily spend on an aftermarket sub-frame. Try to pick up some fiberglass body panels - ie: hood, decklid. ---Weight Savings

I know you got the car cheap at $400, but it won't take long to spend $12K. Even if you paint it yourself you could have well over $1,000 in materials.

Just don't shoot your wad too early!!!!!!!!!!

I look forward to following this thread/build. Good luck and Godspeed!

Hey man, welcome to the site. I have a '77 that I'm trying to build to do the same thing. If you need any info, I'm here to help. I'd also hit up the guys at www.nastyz28.com for as much info as you can get. Most of your money may be going into suspension/wheels/tires, so I'd think about selling the big block for a small block or LSx motor. Remeber, second gens are actually better handling cars than most people give them credit for.