Signs your winter project just snowballed... (damage pics on page 3)
 

Well, today was going to be the last drive of my Chevelle before I pulled it apart for my usual big winter changes.

The last time I drove the car was 2 weeks ago to an end of season cruise-in, and everything was fine. So today after lunch I go start it and back out of the garage. I'm really easy on my cars when cold so until the coolant & oil is up to temp I hardly give it any throttle and shift before 2500 rpm.

I'm about 1 mile down the road from the house in 3rd gear at 2200 rpm when the engine starts missing; the mirrors are shaking and the exhaust is popping-- I figure it's a bad plug wire or bad plug as it feels like 7 cylinders and there is certainly raw fuel being dumped into the exhaust to cause the popping. I turn around and head home.

I get home and while it's idling I start disconnecting injector wires; disconnecting cylinder #6 doesn't change the RPM but the raw fuel smell from the exhaust goes away. Bingo!

So I pull the plug wire and check it; the meter says it's OK. Then I pull the plug and see something I never expected to see... I saw lots of $$$ signs. :mad:

Something has obviously impacted the plug, folded the ground strap over, and left sharp dings in the ground strap. The engine hasn't ingested any foreign material, so that leaves internal bits. The dings are far too sharp for aluminum to have created, so I'm pretty certain based on how sharp the dings are I'm thinking the upper ring and ring land of the piston came apart.

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_che...tuff/plug1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_che...tuff/plug2.jpg

Then again, I kind of figured something was up; over the course of this year my oil consumption kept slowly increasing and most of the plugs started to show signs of oil in the cylinders. I guess 5 years of 15 psi of boost & abuse on JE lightweight pistons is about all they'll take. When I added the Procharger I opened the ring gaps up but left my original pistons in place; I guess it's time to step up to actual blower pistons. :lol:

All the other plugs were OK.

It's probably a good thing it decided to let go at a low RPM, low speed cruise; had it let go at 6600 rpm under 15 psi of boost things may have been really ugly.

In a way this event is a blessing; because if the rings & pistons had scattered next year it would have taken out the turbine wheels on these brand new PT-61/76RS turbos that are my winter project...

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_che...uff/turbos.jpg

More updates after I tear it down. I'm hoping the head, valves, and valve seats are OK, and the block can live with a .010" bore (I'm .020" over right now.) Either that or now is the time to step up to a Dart Little M, I was already pushing my luck with a stock 010 block and 15 psi of boost.

Time to dig a little deeper in the piggy bank for more parts.

UGH! Looks like a lot of work. Also, on the wheels, lets just do you a set when your ready. Changing those others is going to be to hard.

I'll hook you up when it is time.

God luck.

No problem Frank, but I'm fairly certain the new wheels just turned into a Dart Little M and new pistons. Argh!

I thought that was what you were going to say.

well, bummer. But you were planning on the turbo side of things anyway, so the timing is good. Let me know if I can help.

Jody

Can I borrow your engine?

:lol:

I'm trying to decide now if I want to stick with Gen 1 or go LSX.

As much as I'd like to go LSX I have a bunch of Gen-1 specific parts that I would have to sell and I'd probably lose a lot of money on, including my custom Canton oil pan, custom stealthram/sheetmetal hybrid intake, new in box Vintage Air FrontRunner setup that I just purchased for the turbo setup, the new turbo cam that I just ordered last week, etc. Selling the Cola 4340 crank, rods, ported Dart Pro-1's, and all the "standard" stuff would all be easy but moving the more "custom" stuff such as the oil pan and intake would either take a while or require me to take a big loss.

Going LSX would be nice but not only would I have to take a loss on my Gen-1 stuff I'd have to acquire a lot of new LSX specific stuff besides the engine including a new ECU, new engine wiring harness, A-body oil pan, flywheel, bellhousing, accessory drive, etc.

I'm not going to make any rash decisions until I tear the engine apart and determine the extent of the damage. I'm keeping my fingers crossed the cylinder head is OK, but I expect cylinder #6 will have little bits of ring and piston smashed into the quench pad of the head and probably some dinged up valves and valve seats.

And of course the kicker is I just ordered my Stack ST-700SR tach/multifunction display this morning for my rebuild of the dash... the money I just spent on that plus the add-on harness and sensors would have paid for 2/3 of a Little M. :willy:

I may just concede the car will be off the road for a year and work on it little by little. Things are still very slow at work so I'm extremely reluctant to either raid my rainy-day fund or become a credit-card-racer and get things fixed ASAP.

That sucks to hear Troy. Sounds like it might be best to stick with the small block. Good luck and hopefully it will all work out :thumbsup:

We'll see how things go once I have it torn down.

Right now I'm working on a spreadsheet to figure out what an LSx swap would really cost, minus the money I would make by selling my current crank, rods, heads, lifters, rockers, intake, FAST ECU, oil pan, new-in-box vintage air Frontrunner etc.

I'd probably go with a stock stroke LS2 with stout internals, and either AFR or ETP heads. Don't know what I would do for an intake, and I'd probably use a factory ECU and use EFI Live, and buy an LS vintage air Front Runner setup. Keeping the LS2 to 364ci means the turbos I just purchased will still be in their ideal efficiency range.

Right now the cost difference between freshening my engine with a Dart block and new pistons and going LS2 looks like about $2500-3000 more for the LS, about 1/2 of the cost difference I expected; but the "big if" in that equation is getting what I figure is reasonable for my Gen 1 parts I'd need to sell.

Did you remember the little things to add an LS motor?
Such as:
adapter plates for the motor
extra parts to hook the trans to the ls motor
drive shaft mods
maybe a new radiator for the ls motor
and more

I can't wait to see what you end up with...should be cool :thumbsup:

Yep, I'm counting on oil pan, adapter plates, new bellhousing, etc. I'm going to be keeping my current transmission so I'll scoot the engine forward/back as necessary to keep the driveshaft.

The radiator is iffy, but I'm sure I can make my current one work with a few mods for the steam bleeds and the like.

I will probably have to change to a hydraulic clutch while I'm at it.

Lots more research to do before making a decision. Right now effort & money still favors a rebuild of what I have now. It would be a no-brainer if I could find a smokin' deal on a lightly used Little-M.

Ouch. Bummer. But at least good timing... winter and all.

1 option: go to ebay, search for the '69 Chevelle twin turbo ls2 for sale in Vegas. Granted, the motor is probably "home built", so who knows how much more work it would take to have the motor where you want it. (Not to hijack thread, just thought it was an interesting find. My buddy found it on ebay. And no, I have NO affiliation with the seller)

Heheheh... I saw that last night and given yesterday's events I thought about it. :P

Pour some salt on the wound... geez.

My new turbo grind from Comp Cams arrived today and it was supposed to be billet core with a press on iron gear... and it shows up on a billet core with a billet gear. That's 2 times in the last year they've made the same mistake when I ordered a custom billet/press on gear cam from them. :beathorse

perfect time to switch to an LS turbo cam................ :unibrow: Answer your phone!

Jody

damn that sucks to hear ,,, ..winter?? your in CA ..try doing a winter in the midwest you really ..really cant drive our cars..lol..

Yeah, winter here is a "relative" term... 50 degree temps and occasional rain, with plenty of dry driving days. :P

Damn. Hopefully it turns out to be the blessing in disguise!

We'll see, I'm calling in favors... quotes for a Dart Little M & machine work from one friend, price on a good used LS2 or LS3, ECU, and harness from another friend who is in the auto recycling/salvage business, and prodding several other friends to gauge interest in the Gen-1 parts I would want to sell if I do the LSX swap.

Pending availability & price on a good used LS2/LS3 & ECU, I might go that route. Leave it stock for now except for a good intake, build the turbo setup and run it on 5-7 psi for now, and then change the rods/pistons/heads next winter.

Well you certainly have your plan and options line out. Nice.

If you are looking for Gen 1 parts buyers, would your Canton oil pan fit my motor and car do you know?

I would offer my help if I had any skills! :_paranoid

Just got the price on the Dart block, new pistons, plus machine work... ouch. About $1000 more than I was expecting due to some mfg. price increases and other little stuff.

Also made a few phone calls regarding LSx setups; I was advised not to use the stock ECU and EFI live for big HP, too many background processes going on for O2 feedback regarding long term trims & learning. So that would mean a bunch of money for a newer aftermarket EFI box that is LSx compatible. I still want to do more research on the EFI live / factory ECU route though, the recommendation for an aftermarket ECU was from only one source.

The way things are looking I may just start parting things out and park the car for a year and slowly gather parts.

Some members are a wealth on knowledge when it comes to LS motors(jody)

Have you looked at ls1tech.com? Check out the "forced induction" page. EPP makes big power with EFI live / factory ECU route though, I think. Also, look into Rick @ Synergy Motorsports, Inc. and Kurt from the old W2W.

It's looking like I may be ordering an LSx in a couple of days; LS2 shortblock, L92 heads, L76 intake, all brand new. I might even be ordering 2 (1 for a friend's 66 Corvette project.)

I'll build the turbo setup around it and run it as-is with 7 psi of boost for a year or so and then go with good rods, Mahle pistons, and AFR or ETP heads and throw 15-16 psi at it.

Doing some last minute research now for what oil pan to run; waiting to hear back what Andrew used in the L92 in his GTO; I believe the CTS-V pan fits with no mods.

Now to decide on an ECM; I can't decide if I want to go factory ECM & EFI Live (need to do more research on the capability of it in speed/density), go with a FAST XFI (I know the system very well but am not happy with their lack of real-time altitude compensation), a Pantera setup from Lance, or the M-90 from MAST which offers a ton of cool features but I haven't got any real-world feedback on it yet.

Cool :thumbsup: Andrew used an AutoKraft pan with Edelbrock plates and headers. I am using an ATS pan and plates in mine.

Confirmed for sure; I just found pictures showing that the CTS-V pan interferes with the 68-72 with the crossmember and hangs too low unless you raise the engine up; I'm not going to do that.

The Moroso looks good too, but the Autokraft pan is nice. I wonder if they can add drainback bungs for me...

I would think they could, but the ATS pan already has them. Like I said just a question if you have room on the remote mount. Look at Jody's thread because I think he mounted by the bumper.

What are your power goals? There are guys that are making 7-800hp using HP Tuners or EFI Live. Guy I talked to said he has made as much as 1200hp using the factory ecu, but prefers something else as power levels get closer to the 1000 mark.

The snowball keeps getting bigger...

I'm about to pull the trigger on an LS2 from Kurt Urban (formerly of Wheel 2 Wheel)... it should be at the 800rwhp mark on pump gas without too much effort, and have a couple hundred more HP left in it on race gas if I want to get really stupid.

I almost ordered the SDPC crate motor on Monday and went the low boost for now route but my dad talked some sense into me on Sunday night; he said "I know it's cheaper up front and will make 625HP or so for now but you won't be happy with that... it's less than the old motor was making."

He was right, so I emailed Kurt. :rofl:

Besides, buying the crate motor now and upgrading it later will end up costing more money in the long run.

Now I'm trying to decide which ECU to use (GM E38 or go aftermarket for real-time tuning & onboard wideband) but I can sort that out a little later.

Once again, I blame Jody. It's his fault I bought the Procharger 5 years ago, and it's his fault now that I'm going the LS2 route. Now I just need to get him to accept some degree of financial responsibility for his bad influence. :lol:

Looks like once again I have another great excuse when people ask why I went another year without painting the car. :rofl:

I'm going to try and get the engine yanked out this weekend... which means piston carnage pics.

Sounds like one hell of a plan! :thumbsup:

800rwhp oughta get the job done! :D

I have that effect on people........................... :D

Jody

I'm still not motivated to work on the car much but since I already have guys starting to buy parts I have to start yanking it apart.

I pulled the head on the known bad bank off tonight and found exactly what I expected to. Broken ring land, about 5/8" of the ring missing. There are bits of ring stuffed into the piston and the head. The bore however is perfect... go figure.

Looks like I'll have to clean up, weld, and surface the head and probably touch the valves up before I can sell them.

No obvious signs of detonation in this bank of cylinders, all the other pistons & chambers look great.

On these particular pistons the upper ring is only .180" down from the crown. Most blower/turbo pistons have the top ring .300" (or more) down to prevent exactly what happened here.

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_che...amagedhead.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_che...agedpiston.jpg

Looking forward to purchasing some serious tri-five suspension bits that are coming out soon....and a dry '55 2 dr. post. :cool: