Manual or Auto?
 

Okay I need some opinions.Should I run a T-56 or a 4L80E with a shrifter in my camaro.It will have a SBC TT, Hp will be about 800+.I am having a real hard time deciding on which one to run.

TT and Shrifter. :thumbsup:

Scott I should have put that your not allowed to vote :lolhit:

Lol :D

that's a hard one for me because I have never driven a Shrifter equipped car. So for now I would say the T-56.

If you drive a lot, or get in heavy traffic often the auto with Shrifter is the way to go. I like the manuals for fun, but prefer the new autos for extended driving, plus the Shrifter puts a LOT of the fun back into it.


Jody

Manual for fun factor...
 

For max E.T. and MPH I'd definitely do the auto trans. For the max street driving fun factor I'd do the manual (though I'd speculate your ride could be up to a full second slower with the manual trans if you figure a 1/4 to 1/2 second loss per shift average). Unless you're running a Lenco, or you are the power shifter from hell, no human can shift as fast as an auto trans while continuously applying power to the rear wheels, not to mention the torque multiplication factor of a nice converter. Actually it's real simple in my book, as you're running a twin turbo setup = definitely go with the auto to keep the whistlers boosting continuously and smoothly vs pounding your blow off valves to death with the manual.

There is always merit to putting an engine just about up against its rev limiter and side stepping the clutch though! :D :willy:

Steevo's Shrifter will help keep both hands on the wheel during your banzai blasts, which in a serious power situation is always a good thing! :drive:

Im new on here so Im not sure if you're lookin to drag race or road race or what. Obviously the auto is going to be ebst for draging and even possibly the twisties if set up right but shear fun factor goes to the t56. I drive an LT1/4L60 but have driven many a t56 equipped vehicle and would take that over an auto. For some reason I dont like paddle shifting though im sure its quit fun and practical.

I had a nice lengthly response typed up. Instead, I think I'm gonna try to stay out of this one.
/Steevo

Go ahead, I'm sure Jonny would like your input, Steve.

real cars have 3 pedals :unibrow:

Lets hear it, Steve. :yes:

Auto :D

best part... you can chirp the tires or in your case... ROAST THEM at your whim :)

oh yea, not to mention the cruise factor you have with an auto compared to a stick.

Alright,
I didn't want to come across as a biased salesman (It's hard not to since A: I'm biased, and B: I'm a salesman.) Johnny51 PM'd me for my input. I hope he doesn't mind if I post my response in total (unedited) out in the open. Sorry if I will offend anyone and feel free to argue any of my points.
/Steevo

-QUOTE
"I know it's a tough decision. You have to compare a virtual unknown (the manumatic) to a proven solution. I suggest that you think of the paddle shifter as icing on the cake and instead focus on comparing a computer controlled automatic to a manual with the emphasis on "computer control". When you do that, it breaks down like this:

1) Reliability: 4L80E I have not seen any data showing the T56 can handle the recent popularity in big TT power. And it's really too soon to ask.
2) Timed Accel: 4L80E The '80 has the advantage in 0-60, E.T. and most important: consistency.
3) Road Race Acceleration: TIE (The manumatic allows you to pick a gear, hit your apex, and get back in the throttle at the right rpm. The manual will beat the 4L80E if you are very good at shifting.
4) Road Race Decel: Manual If you like to use compression braking when diving into corners, the manual has an advantage due to the lack of overrun clutches in 4th gear on the 4L80E. You can engage the overrun clutches by selecting 3rd instead of 4th with your 4L80E, then paddle shifting 1-2-3 only. Or keep it in 4th and just use your car's brakes to the fullest--which is what I do.
5) Commuting: 4L80E That one's obvious.
6) Installation: 4L80E Spend some time in the "manual transmission" topics and look at all the problems people are having with some T56 vendors and the installation process. Unlike fuel injection, trans controllers are extremely easy to install, will work out of the box (base calibration) and are easy (and fun) to calibrate for optimized performance.
7) "Wow-Factor" 4L80E Trust me, you may as well have Pamela Anderson sitting in your cockpit.
8) Price: 4L80E Total cost is around $3500.
9) Guarantee: 4L80E I offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee on the Shrifter--including shipping. That may be of little consequence since you still have to buy the other automatic transmission system components. I can't help you there. But it's nice to know that I stand behind the paddle shifter. And I'll stick with you throughout the install/calibration process.

So to me, the auto is the quanitifiable winner. You just have to get over some of the subjective issues like "banging gears" and "fear of the unknown". The thrill of bangin' gears DOES get offset with the novelty of triggering shifts without taking your hands off the wheel or switching to "manual mode" on the fly to carve up light traffic on the highway. It's a good feeling, but very different. Paddle shifting is almost too easy. It's a surgical, electronic feeling rather than an aggressive, mechanical sensation.

I can't really help you with fear of the unknown, except to recommend that you test drive some manumatic factory cars--but only if they offer steering wheel controls. Nudging a +/- floor shifter on a Kia is not the same.
I understand that this is new technology. It inspires lots of questions, so feel free to ask away.
And thank you for your interest
/Steevo
-END QUOTE

You know, I have bought and sold TWO six speeds, and one auto trying to make up my mind on this one. As I get closer to the final product design of my car I have taken a couple things into consideration. I do plan to track my car and although I love blast through any corner I find, I have no real world experience. Although I REALLY want a 6 speed for mpg, I am leaning more towards the auto and Shrifter for the '68 for a couple reasons.

A. F1-paddle shift - just cool
B. Grand AM C6 Corvettes- paddleshift - win almost every race
C. auto for big HP realiability
D. easier to use on the track
E. Less likely my wife will break it

With gas looming around $3.00/gal, mileage is everything right now as I do plan to put miles on my car. Auto will have a little less mileage than a manual with everything else equal. Hope this helps. I am sure Steevo is happy he is about to win over another "gear bangin" wanna be.

Mike

Yeah, I have no delusions of converting everyone. Actually, I'm impressed that the polling results are as close as they are. The vote of confidence is encouraging to say the least. My only goal is to try and educate people as best I can. What ever happens after that is up to the consumer.
Thanks for initiating the poll Jon
/Steevo

just to add to the debate i will throw in my $.02 about deciding on auto/manual.

IF i was to build a mostly street driven cruiser, i would lean towards the auto. reasoning should be pretty obvious.... but if it was meant to be a street driven cruiser... why would we be doing TT set-up and shooting for the 800hp mark?

IF i planned on building the ultimate weekend thrasher...800hp TT... and planned on tearing up the dragstrip and seldom looking for the road track... i would also be looking towards the auto.

here is the major reason why i would choose a manual, my personal interests have more to do with road racing, drag racing is cool...but more of a "just cuz i can" thing... i come from road racing bikes, my personal driving style is where the manual trans comes into play..... engine braking is part of it.... but mostly of being able to engine brake to a point.... clutch and select the right gear for accelerating out of the corner.... usually its a downshift beyond where i was for braking. granted.... if i was willing to LEARN to drive the paddle shifted auto.... this could be easy to duplicate... and faster downshift at exactly the right moment to get it back in the power for accelerating out.... but im set in my ways of burning the clutch earlier in the exits keeping the tires on the edge of staying stuck.

i personally wont pony up for something i dunno if i will really like.... for my driving style. i will stick with what i know and like, but thats just me.

i honestly cant see any reason why someone who doesnt have personal preferance to the way they max effort drive... would not be willing to go paddle shifted auto.

btw.. all my vehicles except my bagged crew cab dually have been road raced at some point..... even my daily driver sts has been to an autocross event.(front wheel drive V8/auto...talk about ugly :D)

real men
 

Real men drive manuals.
On the other hand I wish I was secure enough in my masculinity to let my gears be shifted automatically. :)

All kidding aside if you are on the fence you will be happy with either choice. The Shrifter is a great product..Perhaps the best of both worlds.
However for me I prefer bangin the gears!!!
Scott

Car
 

I have a car with a manumatic setup (E55) and I rarely use it. It's nice that the tranny shifts itself. There is a fun factor with the shifting, but If I don't have to I prefer not to.

Manual tranny's have to be shifted, no choice. Most driving, besides racing, is much easier and less hassle when the tranny shifts itself.

My point is that manual HAS to be shifted, Manumatics have a choice.

I must be getting old, but a great auto setup is just as good or better than manual for overall use, IMO.

I see a lot of "bangin gears" feedback. I can't do anything to emulate or replace the visceral "rowing" sensation or the heel/toe tapdance. Although paddle shifting is stimulating (much more so than a floor shifted auto, I guess I'm trying to eliminate that sensation with the Shrifter:

1) Complete each shift as quickly and/or efficiently as possible--and with a high degree of repeatability.
2) Concentrate on steering wheel control, throttle control and brake application.
3) Reduce the likelihood of driver error during downshifts.
4) Support the Pro-Touring mantra, by bringing previously untapped technology to the world of hot rodding.

I guess it can be summed up by comparing a hammer to a nail gun. Sure you'll vent more frustration with a hammer, but you'll probably get more accomplished with the nail gun. :D
/Steevo

go with what you like . it is your car . :willy:

that is what i thank , rick kirkindall

I like both,thats the problem. :drive:

this needs to go into the quote of the week section.....if we had one

Interesting the poll right now is dead even. Here is where I am at in decision making process.

Manual positive

bangin gears
better gas mileage with lower ratio
bangin gears

manual negative

miss shifts
more work at the track for the inexperienced

manumatic positive

no miss shifts
equal or better et's
easier at track
cool to look at
newest coolest toy

manumatic negative

run higher gear ratio for mpg
no gear bangin
no side stepping the clutch

I know there is more but even my arguement with myself is about even. Go figure.

Mike

I am having a ball driving the Malitude with the auto. A stick would probably be handier with engine braking into turns on a road course but how much of the time will you really spend at a track ? But then I have gray hair so the next thing I'll be looking at 4 doors....... :D

4 doors, lol.

Jonny, you need one of each - a 69 with and 6 speed and a 69 with the 4L80E. :D

your choice
 

I will put my two cents in from cars a little more exotic. One of my policyholders has an all wheel drive 956 TT that has has some work done to it. It is making only 546 hp(lol). One of the fastest if not the fastest street driven car I have ever been in. No real worries about wheel spin. Anyway when you are making that kind of power I just felt short changed driving the car though the back roads as you did not spend much time in any gear.

It would pull like a freight train only to bump the red line and time to shift to the next gear. When I was driving I was thinking to myself...if this think had and auto with a paddle shift what a rush that would be.

Drove a 360 Modena with a paddle shift....well that is all that needs to be said.

I am running a T56 in my car. I was concerned with the nitrous I was going to run for the same reason I would be with a TT car. You are on the juice and it is time to shift. You lift a little and the n2o shuts off, bang the gear, and it is back on. Since my car is NA with no juice now, I will stick with the manual. If I had a TT car it would be an auto all of the way.

Well that brings us into slightly a differently territory--the discussion of:
a) Lock-up torque converter/Planetary gearset with electronic solenoid control.
vs
b) Clutch/mechanical gearset with manual control.

As engine output increases, this topic becomes more significant. And very few of us--myself included--have real seat time with both transmission platforms when applied to big power. Charley Lillard (Malitude vs Mule) and the folks at Wheel to Wheel come to mind. It would be beneficial to all if they could fill in the blanks on that transmission comparison with respect to big power (i.e. 1000HP-T56 vs 1000HP-4L80E). Put aside the "driving experience" issue here and focus on drivetrain reliability and power application (getting power to the ground).
/Steevo

There you go again!You know I have another 69 with a 6 speed(well soon anyway). :willy: Don't worry it looks like you may get your T-56 :_paranoid

Thank you everybody for your input.

Build one of each and we'll all test each one and get back to you.....me first!

I am already one step ahead of you :unibrow:

Only manual transmissions for me automatics are for handicap people... :thumbsup:

Lmao :hail:

I'm with Payton King on this one. With that much power you are rowing through gears so fast that you don't know what is going on! I would go with the 4L80E + Shrifter for sure.

On an N/A motor I'd go stick, but with boost (or juice), I say go with the Auto to avoid potential "missed shift" tragedies at WOT. You've got too much into the motor to let a single missed shift potentially hurt it.

I've always preached this with nitrous, and with boost I feel the same way.

The previous comment regarding keeping the boost up during shifts is also a very valid point.

That, and Steevo's just plain cool...


SP~!

The F Bomb is using a 2 speed power glide and will add a gearvendors later. Strong combo.

I am 110% manualtrans guy and wont never go with automatic . But as Scotch said with insane power and boost good automatic will be easyer to drive and control. Johnnys engine will eat up T56 easily if miss shifted.

I forgot about this thread.

There have been LOTS of changes as of late:

--Mark Bowler has emerged as a master of electronic transmissions. His units are pricey, but so is an 800HP TT engine.
--Mark Bowler has also developed electronics that will allow you to seamlessly perform gear changes AND gear splits by way of my paddle shifter. So if you put a Gear Venders unit behind a 4L60E or 4L80E, you get a 6/8 speed manumatic. (Six speed with the selector in 3rd gear, eight speed with the selector in OD)
--We are working with Pro Torque to develop small diameter (light weight), high efficiency, multi disc lock up torque converters specifically for pro-touring automatics. We will put one in my car this week for final testing. We will follow up by putting one in the red car. Then I can explain in greater detail. We expect to start selling them in 60 days.
More from Bowler Transmissions:
--They offer valve bodies modified for engine braking. These are for 4L60E class transmissions. also available for the 4L60E is a revised solenoid schematic that turns it into a six speed. You can see and hear the modification in action. HERE

A question to add to the auto pile: Has anyone had any cooling (overheating) problems with the automatic trans or the torque converter ? How large a tranny cooler do you need, and between a radiator, intercooler, a/c fins, where have people located their tranny coolers ? What is the overall weight difference between a 4L80E versus a T-56/TKO-600? I want to use a Shrifter with a 4L80E on an upcoming project. Is the point the converter locks up completely programmable from a laptop ? With a laptop or other controller can you have multiple pre-programmed shift maps ? How many ? What are the available 4th gear ratios on the 4L80E ? i.e. how large a drop between 3rd and 4th can be put in to the 4L80E ?

Steevo (or Mark Bowler) - how much power CAN this transmission truly handle ? Assume the extreme case of slicks in a drag race environment. Sorry about all the questions but this is a great thread.

Dern Bruce! That's like 19 questions.
Cooler: Just cracked open my TCI 4L60E for the first time after positively crucifying it for the last four years during paddle shifter R&D. The pan was as clean as a whistle with the pan magnet catching any normal wear. Cooler capacity is 12"x4" for 500HP. I have not seen one single case of excessive heat due to manumatic control.
Lock-up. Yes completely laptop programmable and based on driven wheel speed.
Maps: Maps are handled two ways. Common pc files that are stored on your laptop and uploaded as needed AND tow or more variations that can be toggled by switch or sensor. In your case, I would run the PCS controller and use two load inputs--TPS and Boost. TPS would be the primary load input. Regarding the boost input, when the engine sees vacuum the trans is a *****cat. Boost? The calibration firms up.


That's it for now. More later or tomorrow.