First Gen Camaro Subframe Feedback...
 

Looking to get some feedback from guys who have build multiple cars and used multiple types from DSE, Speettech, AM etc.....

We are doing a 69 this winter and were steering towards the Speedtech but he wanted some options........also wanted to know why the DSE is so much more, what makes it so much better.

He narrowed it down to the Speedtech, the DSE (if justified), the AM and the Scotts Hot Rod one....

Thoughts from the guys who have used more then one brand ?

Had stock with DSE speed 3 kit, had Wayne Due, had new DSE sub. The new DSE sub was far and away better. Handled great and could run a 10" tire with the car ride height low. LS7 with no clearance issues for headers.

I'm biased but I feel the DSE new sub is a great piece and well worth the money. If you want to see pictures of the frame and my car go to DSE and look at previous projects.

Price is a consideration, but I've always went with quality, well self engineered, and customer service. Also all my camaros that I've sold has sold for top dollar because of the quality of the parts they were built with. DSE means alot at resale.

Good luck.

Used all mentioned, have all mentioned in projects in the shop right now, and sell all mentioned.

Speedtech is a screamin deal, especially right now. DSE and Art Morrison are at the top of the heap in excellent geometry.

So what are the selling points of each one over the other ? Why is a DSE or AM so much better or liked ?

it really depends on what you clients need are... if he wants performance with the BEST geometry then jakes rod shop sub is that...but unfortunatly hes not a big rich company so his name doesent get out much.

What are the plans for the build? If it is an LSx then I would encourage you to take a close look at the AME. You can use the stock F body oil pan and accessory drives. The savings will more than offset the small additional cost of the AME over the lowest cost subrame option while delivering superior geometry and performance. You can also use C5 brakes and abuttments for around $500 to gain additional savings. Simply comparing the cost of the subframe without considering its effect on the total cost of the build makes no sense to me.

Customer service at AME is also second to none. I can send a PM to the engineer who designed it and have a response within hours. That sort of access is hard to come by or place a price on.

Don

I agree w/ Dhutton The most bang for the buck is the AME, but if you want the most engineered subframe out there then buy the the DSE.The the speed tech is just a prettylooking copy of an old stock sub frame . W/ the rear steer rack they use you really have chop up an oil pan to fit on an LSX motor.Call AME and ask for Brock Baker super nice guy and will fix you right up.

I drove a DSE about 6 months ago and it was really good. The AME and the DSE are better then the rest, by a long way. They will both have the best geometry and performance out of them all.

The DSE sub has large hydroformed frame rails, this should provide top of the heap torsional stiffness. I think their choice of suspension geometry is ideal for handling and road use, considering Kyle and Stacy are both suspension engineers.

I also like the Morrison sub, very nice.
I've seen the speed Tech sub and it's a great value.
David

I have to disagree with this comment. The Speedtech frame has more going for it than just looks over the stock frame. Here is what Blake had to say when asked about his frame vs. a stock frame.

“The differences:
Will fit up to a 20x10" wide wheel and a 285 tire at a lowered ride height.
Lighter weight than stock.
G-mod built in.
Can use other tubular arms (if you desire) we prefer you order the Hi-Clearance arms.
Air ride is a bolt in.
Will fit BB, SB, or LS.
Big 1.25" solid sway bar for use with hi clearance arms.
Also fits any after market sway bar if not using the Hi-Clearance arms.
Will fit any trans.
We have headers that fit with the rack and pinion steering

As for the hi-end subs they are hi-end, there really good, their more expensive.
Our sub concept was never to go head to head with DSE or AME, it is an option for the guys who want to use aftermarket Camaro components instead of Mustang II parts. Having said that all the testing we have done, the car handles awesome. Frank has beaten his up pretty good and is happy with the performance.”

Bottom line, will the Speedtech frame/suspension do everything I need it to do, yes! Only you and/or your client can decide if it's worth the extra money to have one of the others listed. Do I like the others, sure, they are nice! But, ST was a perfect fit for both my budget and needs!

DSE you can use a factory f body oil pan also.
DSE you can use larger diameter headers, AME is my favorite but I really wish AME had a 1-7/8 header option over the 1-3/4 .

I have used and sold both DSE and AME, customer service with those 2 companys are very comparable.

I dont think a car has anymore value with DSE pats over others, Really it comes down to the whole build.

I have seen anything about Jakes frame , didnt know it was the best out there ?
Jake we need to talk about this frame.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...9/IMG_1246.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...9/DSC_0261.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...9/DSC_0247.jpg
:yes: One of my favorite parts of my car. I agree with Stuart, the way they market themselves and the level of customer service absolutely helps a cars value in the future.

I love this picture...says more than a 1000 words:cheers:

It does look nice http://www.jakesrodshop.com/products.html

Lets hear what makes it the best?? Are there many out on the street, reliability, proven testing, track proven handling, have many people put hard miles on them yet? (not being negative just curious)

Thanks

Are there any other companies besides air ride and DSE testing there stuff just about every week? If I was on the fence about a sub frame, I would go to a Goodguys event and take a ride with DSE , first and second gen cars, on the autocross. Take a ride with Air Ride, same thing. Talk is cheap.

At least you could talk to the owner, designer, engineer and see it in action. What better way is there?

Putting quality parts with reliable ( going to be there for the long haul ) definately adds to the value of the car. When the prospective owner can pick up the phone and get confirmation by asking anyone in the know about a company, it's huge. Ridiculous to think otherwise.

[QUOTE=Stuart Adams;180118]Are there any other companies besides air ride and DSE testing there stuff just about every week? QUOTE]

Jake runs his test car hard and often on the track. There is some video footage out there. I would have considered his subframe if it had been on the market when I was buying.

Some of the video is here:
http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sho...ighlight=track


Don

JUST TO add to this what Blake also said is that his SUB is targeted toward people who "Already own aftermarket parts" So if your starting from scratch I would take the Speedtech sub off the options list.

I will be using the Jakes Rod shop total car system. As for what makes Jakes the best fit for me it boils down to a few things.

F First Jake is a great person to deal with. Key thing is person not company, marketing powerhouse or distribution leg humper that is trying to move product. He is available with his car. He will put you in it and let you thrash it and see for yourself. His customers have offered their cars to me as well (Twist Machine) beacause his products work and he is a top notch guy. His customers stand behind him. That speaks volumes for me.

Second he offers a total car solution of parts designed to work together. Specifically his torque arm suspension and roll cage. The sum of the parts......

Third is the front steer, lowered height (lower then all others) Bump steer... What bump steer... lightweight, C6 Componants (important to me beacuse my usage patter may require a few spares :-) Large C6 bearings to handle the Horiz load,,,

Man you just can't dispute DSE's performance and quality it speaks for it self. Like Stuart im a little bias . And look at those pics of Todds Camaro:thumbsup: Jason I do agree with what your saying also....
Mario

Looks like Mark Stielow is using an AME subframe in the Jackass build. Hard to argue with that vote of confidence.

https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=17744

Don

Stielow is also using a Detroit Speed sub in his blue bomber. Both the Morrison and Detroit units are great. On Jackass I want to use stock accessory drives and the Morrison unit allows that.

If your plans include as LS as mine do the above point is an important factor as well as the oil pan concerns. I dont believe the Speed tech sub does well in those areas.
As for the AME If Jake went out of buisness that SUB would be the one I went with. It offers some of the same advantages as Jakes but not all. Still the AME is a great SUB no question. In regards to using high dollar car builders choices as a guide don't make that mistake. Their are decisions that go into those choices that have no bearing on the general public. Its a lions den so lets just leave it @ that.

We are using a LS3 (480hp) from S&P with a T56 tranny on it.

Customer wants a "LS motor, manual, go like hell, turn on dime, then stop on a dime and give him 9 pennies back" to quote....

He also wants the biggest possible tire under the back, the car has already been mini tubbed.....

You may want to talk to your client about balance between the front and rear tires....Steve had to drop down a rear tire size on Penny for the competition.

Fortuantly, all listed subs allow for a wider front tire over the stock frame...but remember balance (in more ways than one) is key to the total package.

Is 21st Century still around?

You can make a stock subframe fit whatever size tire you want with modifications. It will hold air ride shockwaves, and coilovers (via DSE). Like Stuart we've built DSE speed stuff on a stock unit, air ride on a stock unit, DSE subframe with air ride, Both C4 and C5 wayne due's.

My personal opinion is how good of a driver is the owner? We're not all Kyle or Dave so is the expensive of a DSE, AME, Speetech, etc subframe worth it on a build? Will it make the car more desirable when it's time to sell? Will the owner be using the car to autocross, track, etc? My car my money the DSE unit just looking at it you can tell an "engineer/driver" designed it. The others just don't look quite as beefy or designed to be beat on (my opinion).

The goal of any build is to make the customer's dreams a reality! The building process is a huge learning experience for the owner so giving them the proper information to make decisions is paramount in my book.

He also wants the biggest possible tire under the back, the car has already been mini tubbed.....

Put MIKE'S (MCC) deep tubs in you get another 2.5 INCHES of tire clearance ..
Mario

Mike doesn't really have them labeled as "Deep Tubs" does he? :_paranoid

I watched Jake run his car and he runs HARD
He was running his street car faster then the full race cars in his class :yes:
It was fun watching a 69 Camaro smoke by a Z06 .... It's obvious Jake did a lot of research on his frames :thumbsup:

There are fortunately multiple choices. Everyone has there biases, which makes the world go around. Go take a ride in all these choices, see if your engine, brakes, drive system, etc. works with your choice and enjoy your car. All good here in the neighborhood.

If I can get three of you to do a road trip and we can suck up all the rain, I'm down for that :P

Well said Stuart! :cheers:

no thier labled as "pro touring" frame rails.:D
but that seem like a hard product to label with a short name.

for the average guy or even a guy who drives his car pretty hard will probally never max out a DSE, AME, Jakesrodshop hell i fell even a modified stock like the ATS setup.
its just depends on how much your customer wants to spend.

thats one of the problems with jake (at least on here and pt.com) he keep pretty quiet and people dont hear about his products or if hes testing them... hell i didnt even know he had developed and rear suspension setup till steve told be about it sema weekend.
and like others said he does test his car quiet a bit and has had the subframe done for about a year now.

This video makes me cheer every time I watch it. Jake must be possessed by the spirit of Dale Earnhardt. And his R&D car, called DESTROYER, really goes! Watch how early he gets back in the throttle. Ultimately, THAT's what you're buying. I don't sell subframes or chassis components--never have never will. Comparing features is important, but the bottom line is: Which chassis system is easiest to drive? And you can turn that around: Which chassis system makes me look good. All of the front steer options extremely good and closely competitive. Rear steer stuff doesn't do it for me.

[yt]TPKWqgS3aBM&NR=1[/yt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPKWqgS3aBM&NR=1

This is about all suspension stuff...


But also, just because you get back on the gas sooner does not mean your suspension is better, maybe you are on the correct line, maybe you enter the corner slower, maybe everybody else is worse.

He may have the best product, I don’t know, I have never seen it, heck even if i saw it i would not know, I just know that there are so many variables and like said before unless you are really going to be maxing your car out all the time, you will be better off spending money on driving lessons and sticky tires.

Also, the little I have communicated with Jake he seems like a good guy.

true.
However, there are a few guys here who saw the car on the road course, as well as you can watch my videos and watch entry speed compared to others, its faster, and it blows the spec miata guys away when we enter a chicane with a few lengths between us, by the end of it I am all over them. That said, tires,shocks and experience pay off. that said its all about which set up makes you feel the most comfortable pushing hard in a nice car.
My susp set up makes the car very predictable at speed and at edge of traction, I ran 4 full weekend track days since august, as well as 8 autox's and 2500 street miles. When pushing the car to the point that the car powers slides at speed(65-90) my susp stays very predictable and is very easy to get out of oversteer situations, without the susp getting out of balance. My susp is very adjustable, which can sometimes make it harder for the end user, but in my case, I can take a year of tuning out of the equation, because I have done the work. Its nice being able to adjust the car for different driving styles, and for teaching you how to identify different situations in the car, IE- too tight, too loose etc. This then helps you go further and dial in turn in, mid turn and exit. Which makes my system very well designed and balanced. We used computer design (win geo, solid works) first, then built and manually checked to verify the geometry.
here some specs, I have the full win geo camber curve,caster curve,bump curve charts if needed.
JRS Apex Chassis
61.25 track
107 instant center
.815 roll center
.776 shock motion ratio
-.85 camber gain per inch of bump
7 degrees caster built in
.010 bump steer in 4 inches of travel (in design and when manually checked)
modified r/p to dial in steering geometry
custom valved bilstein coil overs included, 6 way adjustable as option
1.25 splined sway bar, greasable pillow blocks
cnc custom drop steering arms (proprietary)
cnc lower coil over mount(proprietary)
Allows a 10 inch wheel with 285 tire
All said, anyone is welcome to come for a ride and make the decision for yourself. Dse and ame have great subframes, but mine is geared to the more serious driver who plans on attending more track days etc then the average guy. Thats why we have custom valved bilstein coil overs, more aggressive neg camber gain,initial caster settings wider track width, then the other guys.
Thanks guys please ask away or email me.
[email protected]

? How do I get 1 for my Camaro..What's with this rear system you have coming out ?
I'm going to be doing the 67 over soon ..... We're going to have to talk

It's not all about performance. It's the total package for me. I want something that looks great and rides nice as well. Couldn't be happier with my choice. I am not doubting any other sub but I feel since I have first hand knowledge it should be known. Others that are not part of the industry should step in as well.

Tim (thread starter) suggests that performance is top priority for his customer. :yes:

Good point....no wonder I wasn't an honor student.:lol: I bet he is still interested in the other variables unless this is a track only car however.

That's only because for some strange reason they didn't offer coursework such as Camaro 101, 202, 302 and 427. :D

Agreed. We all are. :cheers: