cheap subframe?
 

From what i have gotten on here is dse is the way to go. Hiedts is the red headed step child thats no good. What about Art morrison, or "totalcost involved"? Because i would love to do the dse subframe but i just dont have 7 grand laying around to do it. Are there any cheaper subframes that are still good quality? I want the total package 12 or 13 in brakes a arms just about everything to put me on the road. Its for a 68 camaro.

heres the car

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h1762YX7-E

Are there cheaper subframes? Yes, the stock subframe. Why do you think you need an aftermarket subframe?

because i want somthing that handles well and can carve corners and from what i hear thats the only way to go but im very new to this so by all means if im wrong please school me.

Art Morrison is very nice as well as Speed Tech.....it really depends on if you want aftermarket control arms or C5/C6 arms, what your budget and over all goal is. These frames as well as DSE's allow for large brakes and wide tires and have rack & pinion steering. They all have different geometry gains over stock. Also, Jake's Rod Shop is now offering a subframe.

Speed Tech fit my needs.

The stock frame can be worked over to handel well...but you will always be limited to tire width...if you want full turning radious. It just comes down to what you want out of the end product...and what your budget allows.

i do want the c5 or c6 brakes and aswell as rack & pinion steering i want to do the full pro touring treatment i was hopeing to do this for around 3 grand but by the looks of things its not gonna happen

Again, why do you want a rack? Have you considered upgrading your steering box? I'm not opposed to aftermarket - I've got a 21st Century Street Machine subframe and the LD 3 link (the best of the best) in a '68 project that's in paint jail now; but "aftermarket subframe" and "budget" just don't go together, because any of the pro-touring subframes are going to be in the $6k-$7k range.

Carl Casanova has 275-45-17's on his stock subframed car. Many of us are running 245-45-17's and C5 brakes on our stock subframed cars.

If you want to see what these cars can do, come up for the "Cruise the Crest" event in Los Angeles on February 15th. (Look at the Pro-touring board.) You'll have to get up REALLY early, but you may decide the stock subframe will be just fine.

3k budget....you need to mod the stock sub and you will much better off.

Yeah i might just do that cause my only other options would be to try to find used or save..

i have looked on this web site for the pro touring board to get more info on that "cruise the crest" event but cant seem to find it because i would really be interested in going to that

Try right here.

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50886

And yes, you can do plenty to your stock subframe to get some MUCH better handling. It just takes a bit of research to get the right information.

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51796

The last time we went there were 9 cars, including 2 supercharged Camaros. It's a great run up some incredible mountain roads.

You can go to the lat g and ebay and all the car websites and see if you can find a wayne due for sale. I see them once in a while that come up for sale.

I run a stock sub with C5 breaks, Global West control arms and a set of ATS tall spindles. My car also has the updated/upgraded steering box and it drives great! Several of he members here on the board have driven my car and they have all been amazed. Sure there's a lot more that could be done, but like you I was on a budget for my build.

I say get the most bang for you buck with what you have.

Even at 3k you will be hard pressed to completely build up your factory frame with a coil over conversion, tubular arms etc.

This guy might be willing to make a deal?
WD frame 4-sale

FWIW, I am one of the guys that have driven Curtis' car and thought it drove great! YOu could go with his exact stup or upgrade to a coilover conversion from DSE or possibly ATS has some left. Contact Tobin at kore3 for brakes if you want to go with GM parts. And as stated earlier there is nothing wrong with an upgraded steering box. On a budget you can have a great driving car!

The least expensive quality subframe you can buy is Speedtech. $4800.

If you want to upgrade your front sub, you can do a lot with these parts. We have sold and installed a lot of these packages and they work very well.

Speedtech upper and lower arms (lowers don't do anything, just look cool)
Ride Tech Tall Spindles (help correct camber gain and lowers the car 1 1/2")
Hotchkis springs
Hotchkis shocks
Hotchkis Premium Steering Kit
Hotchkis Tie Rod stiffeners
DSE 600 steering box and rag joint (feels damn near like a R and P)
Hotchkis sway bar

You can do this for $2500! and you have a very good performaing subframe that will lower the stance also.

If you are willing to be patient, and you are diligent, you will find a deal.

just watch the "for sale" sections of the various forums, craigslist, etc. and have your cash ready.

There are a lot of folks re-prioritizing these days and selling stuff. I picked up my WD sub (pics in links below) this way, a year or so ago.

alright thanx guys alotta knowledge on here i will continue to read the for sale portion and keep researching....just wanna do it right the first time...:D

i agree for the most part (esp with the speedtech brand arms)but gotta ask.
why ride techs spindles over ATS??? they will still be avalible.
and why a "dse" 600 box thats a regular assembly line 600 box over a ATS lee speq'ed box or sc&c's lee speq'ed box??? i believe the price is the same or even less.

Ouch!!!!! Red headed step child thats no good? Who is saying this because that is far from true. Of course I work for Heidts and I am going to back up our products, but believe me........we did our research on these and did a hell of a job. I am personally very VERY impressed with what we have out for the muscle cars and what is still to come. :thumbsup: I want to know what makes us the lower end.........why is our product junk, crap, no good? Feel free to pm me. This is stuff we need to know.

I would also recommend the Speedtech subframe. Seems like a good value and quality.

I don't cheap subframs would be the right choice. I think you are looking for more popular. Most members here do have DSE, AM, and also Heidts. I personally went the stock sub route for now because it was the best value for PT that was in my budget. And unless you are going all out at track events then a stock sub will be fine with some good upgrades. Well just my .02 and if I were you just search this site for older threads on this topic you will find good reviews on all of the subs it really just come down to what you want.:cheers:

jcal87,

Check out the "One Lap Camaro" project. He stuck with the stock subframe and modified it to coilovers with some Chicane brackets from ATS.

https://lateral-g.net/forums/show...t=onelapcamaro

I am going the same route and it should be more than enough for me. I am also adding a Lee power steering box, Global West upper and lower arms plus ATS tall spindles.

I think he used the ATS Chicane LM kit which if I remember correctly costs $4900 plus the labor to weld in the coilover brackets. Once you're done it is essentially as good as the DSE and AME offerings from what I have read.

Don

not worried about welding labor went to welding school for three years can do everything but tig and i have even dabbled in that a bit just wouldnt call myself a expert

And will never be another since Tyler discontinued that kit nearly a year ago.

I wouldn’t call an aftermarket suspension innovator that’s been in business for 25 years a red headed step child. I wonder where these other suspension guys will be in 25 years. If you take a look at Super Chevy Mag (issue 1/09) they ran a 43.75 in the autocross. That’s more than 4 seconds faster than the C5 vette they tested. That’s one mean stepchild :thumbsup:. I know of a local dealer that was offering some real good deals on Hiedts packages. Not only that I have yet to wait longer than a couple days for their kits to be delivered.
PM sent;)

I have no clue why there is such negativity against Hiedts. When I was wet behind the ears (over a decade ago) their tech line spent over an hour with me explaining suspension geometry. To this day the Hiedts tech line has been very informative.

I should stop building cars and go into marketing!

It's still on their website so I assumed it was still available. The price listed is $4750.

Don

Heidt's, TCI and Fatman are all based off a suspension design from 30 years ago. The spindle is short, in most of the aftermarket mustang II kits there is no anti dive built into the suspension. The short length of the control arm also limits travel which mean you need a stiffer spring. Plus the camber gain is really fast due to short control arms. Plus they are just made withs maller tubing and therefore not as strong. There are alot of other popular suspensions that have gone by the ways side due what is currently avalible. The C4 corvette stuff, why would you ever run that stuff when the price of a replacement ball joint is more then a brand new control arm with ball joints and bushings and the A arm. The avaliblity of the brakes for the C6 out numbers the C4 10-1.

Technology has come a long ways in the past 10 years and you can see it in the products that are currently avalible on the market. The Mustang II design is like the Small Block chevy it still has its place but there are much better coices to made for the money.

Heidts may have some new products coming out that will set the world on it's ear, but they will ahve to be proven the days of having and old car that has updated suspension that drives like crap are over with, with as far as the bar has been raised in the past 10 years.

The numbers speak for themself. If it works why change it? When pricing comes into play its the best system for the money! Why pay thousands more?
Were in a recession right?

what numbers??? the ONE shoot out test?
cause its sure not goemetry number... i have yet to see heidts provide and REAL information about their suspension products aside from "g-machine handling"
as far as the shoot out goes, obviously you dont really know mary, she's an extemly nice induvidual with a kind way with word.
im not say the car was probabaly a piece but Im sure deep down she feel that heidts car couldnt hold a candle to the dse 2nd gen!
remember she said it was a nice street car.

OK, Please read SLOWLY>>>> When pricing comes into play its the best system for the money! Why pay thousands more?
Were in a recession right?

Which means: Its the best buy for the buck.

Plus, no where did I claim to know Mary P.

Come on... did you read the whole thread???:rolleyes:

no where did i indicate you know mary... i was refering to the fact that your using the shootout info for your argument in which the car was tested by mary...

NO... its not the best buy for the buck!
an aftermarket equiped factory sub frame will be the best bang for the buck...
as of right now the heidts is just a "hey i got an afermarket subframe!" type of deal... if you wanna settle for that, then i guess it works.



also to be noted just cause a company start building parts for "muscle car" doesnt mean thier all of a sudden all about performance!
i dont know about others but when i use the term "street rod" company i dont just mean 32 fords... i mean FORM OVER FUNCTION. be it a 69 camaro/70 nova/tri-five etc

also rodgers post was a great post and hit the nail on the head... take it or leave it.

How's this Jay. I do know Mary. I've spoken with her at length about the Heidts Camaro. She definitely liked it. There were things about both the DSE car and the Heidts car that she didn't like, but were things that could be fixed, and probably have been already. Apparently the Heidts car is plenty capable of handling itself. She LOVED the DSE car, but I don't think that's the point here. I've also spoken with Mark, the owner of Heidts. He's dedicated to making his components perform. He's very into the performance side of things and is making the moves to get there. He did spend time at a track doing some tuning to get the car ready for the Super Chevy Shootout. He wants in bad and I think their stuff could very well be capable pretty soon.

Oh, and I'm not speaking for either of them. Just stating my knowledge of the items at hand.

Heidts
 

I am using a full line of Heidts products on my 70 Camaro build. I have been in there factory. The quality of there work is as good as anyones. I have talked personally face to face with there engineers about chassis geometry. The head engineer works with race teams in his free time. I have also talked with Mark the new owner of Heidts & he is a real car guy not just some guy behind a desk, he's out there working side by side with his engineers to bring customers a great product for there hard earned dollars. I say lets see what comes from future testing from my own car & others. See Ya out on the track.:lateral:




Randy(D&Z Customs LLC.)

FAST FACTS:

1. Heidts second gen front subframe is NOT thier first gen subframe.. new design.

2. Gary Heidt, who owned Heidts for 25 years doesn't any more.. new people own the company.

3. The Heidts 2nd gen Camaro had the second fastest autocross time (not counting mine) that day. The DSE car was faster by a tad.. Mary really like both cars and Mary knows what the hell "good" is. If she had to pic one to take home I think she would have chose the DSE car, but she would have been happy to have the Heidts car.

4. 90% of the people on the internet who argue about this crap will never push there car to even 70% or its potential. lol

5. Don't worry about cost.. worry about VALUE.

Ok, off my soapbox :)

I am in the process of building my 68 camaro and I purchased a complete heidts sub frame for it before it went up to over $4200 ( when I got it it was still $3700!!)...I did this after looking at many of the others that were out there too, for what i am building I found it to be the right choice for me...I AM on a budget and by comparison to the THOUSANDS more I would have spent going elsewhere I am completely satisfied by the quality of the Heidts set up that I received, and i was very happy with the service and tech help I received from Mark and the rest of the crew when calling them about any questions I had.......I am sure that ALL of the aftermarket sub frames and their guys are great, But I definatly dont see any reason to call the heidts products the "Red-headed step child"!!!

I hope to be in the 10% that does. & I'm not argueing about who's better, I think everyone has a space to play in the big sand box.



Randy(D&Z Customs LLC.) 1-262-347-9741