BBC build ideas?
 

Maybe some of you have ideas on how I should build my engine.
This is my first big block and any help in selecting parts would be appreciated.

The engine is a '77 454 out of a 3/4 ton truck. It is all stock and has never been opened up, it has 100k on it and runs good but I want to go through it and get more power.
It will be going in a 1970 Camaro with a 5 speed behind it. The car will be mostly street driven and may never see the track. But I do tend to have a heavy foot so it needs to be durable. ( I may do a couple open track days on our local road course just for fun)
I'd like to see 450+ hp and 450+ tq. And if possible I want to re use the stock crank and rods unless there is a cost efficient way to stroke it.

Can I reach these levels with the stock heads?
Any thoughts on which cam? Heads? Intake?

Thanks for any help,
Eric:cheers:

I'd definitely go with a new set of heads. If you don't want to spend big money, you can go with a Dart Iron Eagle. A roller camshaft is a must, and I would go mechanical if I had to do it all over again. I would also run a scavenging plate and quality oil pan with baffling. Edelbrock air gap will work well. If the crankshaft needs turned and the cylinder need bored(probably will with that many miles) might as well stroke it to 489-496. You then have a square motor. Meaning bore and stroke very similar.

Thanks Todd,
What don't you like about your hydraulic cam? (I'm assuming that's what you are running based on your post)
And is there a crank manufacturer that you reccomend? Do I need to step up to a forged crank at the 450-500 hp levels?
Eric

I would recomend doing some research over on chevelles.com. They are the big block masters with a lot of very knowledgeable builders on the forum. Mike Lewis at lewis Racing Engines is a regular poster and if pretty much the man when it comes to building stout big blocks. You can find pretty much any combination you would want already built and tested on there.

It's not that I don't like it, I just know I could be making another 40-50 horse with no less engine vacuum and few adjustments. Mechanical cams have more agressive ramps. I would have to agree with Morris that the guys on Chevelles.com are probably your best bet for research.

We have been using a lot of the Trick Flow Ovals on our big blocks. They make killer low end grunt and nice power to low 6000 RPM range. And they are priced real reasonable.

We are using them on a 540 were building right now and looking for killer torque numbers.

We have these on the shelf.

I've been looking at chevelles.com and am about to register as a member there. I'll have to lay low on the car I own, only have a Camaro LOL! Kidding!
I will get in touch with Mike Lewis and try and put a build plan together.

I checked Summit for the Dart heads and they run about 1600.00 for the pair. That is assembled including guide plates. Is this a decent price on these?
I also looked at Scat cranks, forged are only around 700.00 and cast are under 300.00. Do I need a forged crank at the 450-500 hp level?

Thanks again for the help here guys.
Eric:cheers:

PS Todd, what kind of hp and tq are you getting? and where does it come on (rpm range)? If you are happy with yours for street use maybe I could talk you into sharing the specs on it and I could do something similar?

Very well documented. https://lateral-g.net/forums/show...k+hits+chassis Had 593hp and 587 lbft at the crank.

Thanks Todd. I'll check it out.
Frank, thank you too. PM sent on those heads.

Thanks everyone for the input. I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg for questions on this subject.:cheers:

A lot of the BBC chevelle guys are runnign AFR heads with fantastic results. I have 335's on my 540 just to reduce the low end torque a little for more driveabilty but it still made 525ft-lbs at 3000RPM. It ended up making 680ft-lbs at about 5500 and 750HP at 6800. With the solid roller I spin it to 7500RPM easily.

Woohoo! FInally some BBC discussion. All this LSx talk was too much :-).

There is a set of Edelbrock oval port heads for sale in the for sale section. Pretty good price and they are new in box. For a smaller cube BBC that is likely the way to go. I have a set of Dart 320s but if not, I'd likely pick up those oval ports for myself. For a street engine they can make strong numbers.

John

I'll be following this thread myself, as I more than likey going to go the BBC route more so than with a LSx. :unibrow:
Not that I don't like the Lsx, I have a LS1 now.:thumbsup:

Looks like a pretty stout race motor. You must be running a mammoth camshaft with your max torque at 5500. Probably not ideal for him though. I'm running a set of 325 Dart Pro 1's on my 489. For his goals your heads are way to big and so are mine. We also need to know if he wants to use power brakes. For a street motor with those hp goals in mind, I'd take Franks advice and go with a good set of budget oval ports. Those GM heads would be fine as well. The camshaft needs to be matched to your rear gear, brakes, and goals. I'd also make sure the camshaft has a pressed on cast distributor gear so you can run a regular gear or melonized vs a bronze gear for longevity. Basically we need to know more.

Thanks guys. Yes on power brakes. Maybe a hydro boost later. 5 speed trans, so no converter to worry about. Rear gears are undecided as of yet. I have the stock ten bolt in it but that is going away and will be replaced with either a 12 bolt or 9 inch. Wheels will be either 17 or 18's. Not sure on tire size yet (diameter). No tubs. Trying to keep the budget in check and be realistic with my use of the car.
I'm not affraid to spend money on the car but I would rather do it on things like brakes, suspension, trans, engine. Not so much on body mods or "bling".

I am very open to ideas on which parts for the whole car. This is my first full build and I want it right. I do have the ability to do everything but the paint myself. And I just might try that too.
If there are any thoughts on cam selection, rear gears, brake set up, tire size or anything else then please feel free to chime in.
I'll be dragging the engine home this weekend and tearing it down to inspect. If the block is good then I'm in business. If it's not then I'll go with the small block I already have. (327 with a fresh rebuild, around 300 hp. But i can fix that :unibrow: )

I wasn't suggesting he use the same heads as me. AFR 305's work very well on 496 size engines if he decided to stroke it out a bit. On 468's most guys go with ported GM heads and make fantastic numbers.

I just checked and my peak torque was actually at 5000.

my money is on the pro filer 320 heads with matching intake and a mechanical cam in the 240-245 deg ragge @ 0.050 with about .600 lift and 110 LS....

it should put you in the 620 fwhp range with acceptable idle

Well...with a 5 speed a 3.73 should work great. What is the overdrive gear ratio? You need to stick with a small hydraulic cam for power brakes. I'd get on the horn with Comp Cams or Lunati and find a good camshaft for your application and match the heads. Sounds like heads we've discussed earlier will work just fine for your goals.

How about a little boost?:D I did a mild 468 with ported 049 GM heads 9lbs of boost with a vortech YS blower. Made just under 900HP and in a 4300lb street truck run consistant 6.5x and in the 6.3x was its best run. It was lots of fun to beat up on race cars at the track before he sold it a couple months ago.

Funny you mention chevelles.com as I am a member there. They love 496 builds over there and that is what I am building. AFR and Brodix seem to be the preffered heads. I got a set of edlebrock RPM heads cheap so that is what I am going with. Big blocks are prone to valve float that is why solid cams are recomended for anything more than a mild street motor. I will be using a flat tappet cam for now because the cost of rollers are a little out of my budget for now. Even so my motor is very straight forward and should make 650 horsepower. Guys running brodix or afr heads running solid rollers are making 700+ horsepower with ease. As much as LS motors are touted around here it is all too easy to blow them away with a big block.

Very good info here guys.:cheers:

I agree, very good info here. Thanks everyone. Now, more questions.
I may have the chance to pick up a 1997 vortec 454 complete engine, runs good, includes the FI system (intake, injectors ect.)
Are the vortec heads any good? What about the blocks?
It's only 500 bucks. But I think I'd only end up using the bottom end right?

As for the overdrive ratio, I don't have the trans yet. I'll be getting a whole kit from Keisler.
I see the hp numbers climbing in the other posts:unibrow: I have the same problem. "Ok, if I can get 500, why not 575. Ok, why not 650, ok, why not 700?" Too funny!
It's hard to keep it in check at times. But needless to say I'd take as much as I can get for power.

Block will be fine but the heads are junk for making any power.

That's a good deal since a brand new Gen VI block goes for over a grand.

I didn't know a new block cost that much Todd. I am going to drag home the truck my engine is still in this afternoon. I should have the motor out and torn down by tomorrow evening and off to the machine shop Monday to have it checked out. I might pick up the vortec motor Monday as well just in case. If I don't have to use it now, I'll have a spare that I might build with higher goals somewhere down the road.
Now, someone stop me if I am going about this wrong. Is the '97 block and crank/rods better to use than the '77 I am about to tear apart?
I'm at a point where I can start on either one (once I buy the vortec motor Monday) so if anyone has good advice on which one to build please tell me now.

I really want to express my grattitude to everyone who has responded to this thread. You all have helped me a bunch and I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out on this.:cheers:
Eric

Hey Eric. I would wait to see if the truck engine is worth before buying it.
That's 500 bucks, or should I say, more horsepower towards your '77 engine, if it worth it of course.
GOOD LUCK!:thumbsup:

Good point tones. I was thinking since I need to have either one checked out before I can build, and either one will cost the same to have checked, which one would make a better foundation for my project with all else being equal.

Thanks,
Eric

If you were planning on a mech fuel pump there is no provision on the gen v block.

That's a gen VI and it does have the provision.

Ok, the '77 block seems to be ok. I'll drag it to the machine shop tomorrow and have it checked out.
I have decided to build it as a 496 and push the power goals up a bit.
I'd like to see 550-600hp/tq out of it. I know this will require some changes in what parts I can use from the stock short block. I'm guessing the only thing I will re use will be the block itself.
So now I am open for ideas on which crank, rods,heads,cam.....
I will be going to a hydro boost set up for the brakes. I will also be going with a 6 speed from Keisler so I shouldn't have to worry about the trans being strong enough or vac for power brakes.
The choices on cams and heads is making my head spin.
There has been talk of AFRs ,Brodix, Trick Flow, Edelbrock and GM heads. All of that was based on a 454/468 build at 450 hp. And with power brakes. Now things are changed all the way around.
Can these power goals be reached with a hyd roller cam?

I keep seeing stroker kits everywhere for small blocks but not much advertised for big blocks. I have looked at chevelles.com and there are alot of ideas there. But I have kind of developed a trust for the opinions here. Nothing against the other sites at all. Please don't take that wrong if you are members of both.
Thanks,
Eric:cheers:

I guess I should thank (or blame:lol: ) Todd for posting his dyno video. That got me convinced to go with a stroker.
And the video of it running through the roads.

Todd, if you had to do it over with your engine, would you change anything other than the cam (to mechanical lifter)?

I searched your build thread and couldn't find what trans you are using. I'm sure it's there somewhere but I'm a dork and missed it.

You can probably see where this is going. A copy of Todds drivetrain in a '70 RS Camaro.
Thanks,
Eric

Just an aluminum block and fuel injection. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I used a cast Scat crank and would now go with a forged crankshaft just incase decide to spray it or turn this thing into a 540 one day.(Crankshaft and rods can be used in a 540) I wouldn't bore it any farther than neccesary. Automatically going to 496 gives you no mulligans for another bore. So...forged crank and mechanical cam. Don't forget the press on cast cam gear for the distributor. You don't want to run a bronze distributor gear on the street. I have a TKO 600.

I've been doing some research on chevelles.com myself Eric.
I guess a lot of the guys on chevelles.com are running or suggesting the AFR or Brodix heads. I guess both would be a great choice for a 496?

Todd, I just went through your thread again. I'm up to page 27. I found the trans info. Your car is going to cost ME alot of money! Thanks. :lol:

I get what you are saying about the bore. Maybe I'll hold back and save some material for later just in case.
I didn't realize you were using a cast crank at those power levels. A forged crank seems the way to go now since I have to get a new one anyway.

So I am going with a forged stroker crank. Mechanical roller cam (specs?) I'll remember the cam gear Todd.
Aluminum heads (probably the ones from Frank at Prodigy).
Pistons and rods to be determined still. (do I beam or H beam rods make any difference for this build?)
Scat and Eagle both have forged rotating assemblies. Both also offer both types of rods.

Now I need to figure out which intake and carb.
I have seen Edelbrock Performer RPM used but I wonder if that might not flow enough. But any dual plane will have better street manners than a single plane.
Carb size will matter too. I can deal with tuning here. Just need a base size to start with.
I have a brand new billet HEI I can use but I'm sure it will have to be tweaked.

Almost there guys. Thanks to everyone for all of the great advice and for your patients. This is my first big block and I figure if I'm going to do it, I better do it right.:cheers:
Eric

Heads are a personal choice. Very happy with my Dart Pro 1's. I'm running a Edelbrock Air Gap intake and 850 AED carb. If you do go mechanical which you should, I'd step it up to a 950 for the added rpm you can spin it. I'd also make sure you oil pan is made for you intended application. You should make mid 600's tq/hp with a clean build, good heads, and the right camshaft. My build thread is a novel. I should delete it and charge admission to save a bunch of money and time!

Yes, your build thread is a novel. It took me forever to find mention of the trans. But it has so much good info and has helped me a bunch.
I really appreciate your help on parts selection. Now all I have to do is pay for it all!:rofl:

I sent Mike Lewis a PM regarding all of this and asked for a quote on a rotating assembly and a quote on a short block. (just in case my block is bad)

There are a couple of good engine builders around here that I can work with as well. I shouldn't have any problem getting this put together right.

I am looking forward to building this engine. It should be an absolute riot once in the car.

Todd, did you get your heads from Summit or Jeggs? Or is there a better source?
Thanks again,
Eric:cheers:

The key is to find a really good machine shop and let them set up the block and heads for your application. I'd stay as close to home as possible and buy the parts from them if they are reasonable. I had my engine built in North Carolina. Never again.

I'll try and stay local Todd. Thanks for the input.
I noticed you are using mechanical clutch linkage. Is there any reason why you didn't go with a hydraulic set up?
I am putting together my list for the rest of the drive train and this caught my eye in your thread.
Thanks,
Eric

Less expensive and less to go wrong. I really like the feel of my clutch.

Good points on the clutch Todd. Kinda hard for mechanical linkage to puke fluid all over your new clutch package huh?
I have never had a hyd clutch in any kind of muscle car. (Toyota Corolla does not count). My '68 had a Muncie M21 and I did like how easy that was to take care of and it had a good feel too.
I just got my quote from Keisler on the trans package and the hyd upgrade is pretty spendy.
Thanks,
Eric

Headers is where it can become and issue to run a mechanical however. They must be built for the Z BAR.