Orange Peel
 

Is it possible to remove ALL the orange peel out of a paint job?

Thanks,

Ron
1969 Firebird, 4-speed Coupe

[email protected]

as long as theres enough clear on the car it is.. a hard foam block and some 1200 grit, then 1500, then 2000-2500. wool pad with compound then foam pad with machine glaze.. maybe a little swirel remover and you should be golden..you can alternate your strokes to make sure you have knocked out the heavier grits.. like do your 1200 from lower left to upper right then the 1500 in an alternate direction, then the 2000 in a different.. this would come in handy if you were doing the entire car..

Hi GM,

I am not a painter or even a builder like most in here. I am have my '69 Firebird built from the ground up with mods. The person who will be painting my car (not in the near future) says it is difficult to get all orange peel out to where it is smooth as glass. He says it could be done but it would take may hours to do.

I have noticed on a car he painted recently that at the end of the car is where orange peel is noticed. Why is this? Is it because this is where the paint stops or overlaps going back the other way?

Thank you for your help.

Ron
1969 Firebird, 4-speed, Coupe
[email protected]

it is definately a long tiring process. it is probably where the painter started, went around the car and finished. he probably should use a hotter a reducer so the paint stays wetter long enough for him to get around the car. *sometimes*, and its very rare, i have sprayed straight reducer(very hot reducer) or blender directly over the "rough" if im done spraying and notice anything. it will probably haze or fuzz but i would much rather knock off a little haze than deal with orange peel

another thing i have noticed is that if you have a car with a mirror finish like that, it is extremely easy to notice swirls and scratches..

So does the paint dry and while going over the same area a second time causes orange peel? Or is orange peel too much paint in one area?

I am a rookie/non-gear head when it comes to building cars and thats why someone else is building my car. So the past several years I have been reading, watching car tv shows, going to car events, and talking to every gearhead I run into trying to learn all the pros and cons of building a car. It took my close to 2 years to find a builder I could trust and who has the knowledge to build a car with honesty and details.

All the info is greatly appreciated.

Ron
1969 Firebird, 4-speed Coupe

Don't forget to add a bit of soap to your sanding water bucket!! That helps keep your paper unclogged....

Depending on the owner and how many coats. I like to start with 800 and work up to 2000 then compound and then polish. With my car Ill shoot it with three coats of clear, let it dry then hit it with 600. Then Ill clean it up really good and re clear the car with five coats. Ill then start with 1200 and work up to 2000. The job will come out REALLY nice like this. The second go round with clear will lay out flat! This will make the cut and buff part easy!

Orange peel is generally caused by incorrect spray gun setup, incorrect material mixing, or the most common (not enough practice!) :yes: Spraying paint/clear is easy making it lay down like glass is an art!

Orange peel can be removed with 1500 grit sand paper on a firm block (if there is enough clear). Factory paint jobs are 1.5 coats thick and generally not enough to sand out the orange peel and polish. Now the cottage cheese/fat lady leg (bigger uneven waves in the panel) that you see is from the filler/primers under the base. You need to have each level of the process as straight as possible starting with the metal, fillers, and primers.

Thanks guys. I am very picky when it comes to small details. Please keep the info coming.

Ron
1969 Firebird, 4-speed Coupe

Like everyone says it all comes down to how much material/Clear is on the car. Here at BOS We start with 600/800, 1000, 1500,2000,2500,3000 and then compound/polish. But your painter should know if he's comfortable using 600/800 b4 he dives into it as you can get yourself in trouble pretty fast. Goodluck

the main benefit to having enough clear to start with 600 is that the paint will come out much "flatter" the agressive grit really helps make everything level.

Do you start sanding the orange peel after the first coat of clear is on or do you put the second and third coat on then sand?

After sanding an area with orange peel is it difficult to bring that area up with clear again to make it even with the rest of the car or is the whole car sanded?

Sorry guys for the bone headed questions.

Thanks for everyones help.

Ron
1969 Firebird, 4-speed Coupe

if you want a "show car" i would use 3 coats of clear. let it fully cure. bust it open and block it with 600 grit on a hard foam block untill all the texture is gone. grey scotch brite any areas that you didnt 600. then reclear the car with 3-4 more coats of clear. once its cured, you should be able to start with 1000-1500 from there and move up and buff.. i use a really heavy clear like ppgs concepts 2021. 4 coats is more than enough. if you use a thinner clear i still think 4 coats would be enough but ive never tried the thinner clears so im not sure..

Thanks GM and everyone else.

I will need more advice on many more area's of the care in the near future.

Thanks,

Ron
1969 Firebird, 4-speed Coupe

At work we just go at it with 1500 grit by hand. You don't need to go through all the steps other guys say. Just wet sand until the clear is even, as in no black spots or whatever color you are doing. It's hard to explain, the clear will look hazy, it has to be even.

I am curious to see what kind of a difference all the other steps make, anyone have any pics?


Here is a single stage car I did a while back..


http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7458/picture1022.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8653/picture1029.jpg

Trey --

Great post!

Wet sanding - or "color sanding" - cut and buff... call it whatever.... as I understood it - is just what you said - use fine grit - wet - a little soap in the bucket of water (or squirter) -- and sand until the shiny spots (low spots) are "just" gone.... then buff that bad boy up!!

Nice mirror reflection in that one shot!! Not a ripple - and obviously no orange peels on that paint job!

SO HERE'S the question for you --- you said it was SINGLE STAGE -- so no clear.... how many coats are on there -- and do you think you sanded off at least one of them??

I know they use two coats base and two coats clear but I am not sure about single stage. So I guess two or three coats? I just sweep the shop and detail cars every now and then so I am not sure.

I was told when you cut single stage that you don't want that full haze like you do with clear because you can burn through alot easier.

I don't know how much paint I took off, I would guess after cut and buff you would be at a half to a full coat. I don't know how thick a coat is or how much I take off so I really can't tell you, I am sure someone else that is actually experienced at this knows. I really don't think you take off a whole lot of paint with wet sand

I'll but in here about my experiance with single stage. I'm old school and like SS, depending on the color. As some of the above mentioned spraying several clear coats, then sanding, then more clear, the same applies for SS. Spray several color coats, 600/800, spray more color. I like to mix in about 50% clear to the last couple of coats of color, then do my final cut/buff.

Are you spraying the car or someone else? Each painter is different my 3 coats is a different thickness than Mikes, Charlies, Franks, etc. The goal is to apply each coat of primer, color and clear as smooth as you can. You won't see the orange peel until after each layer is dry.

For novice painters the easiest process is the apply 4 - 5 coats of clear. Your 4-5 will be equal to my 3, that way you won't sand through. You will end up using the same amount of clear, but you'll go at it less aggressive because you don't want it to run. ;) Now the hard part let the clear sit for as long as you can the longer the better before sanding. And the best tip I can give "if you don't sand it you don't have to buff it!" Edges, hard to reach areas with a buffer, etc. Unless there is dirt, runs, or other blemishes that you need to get out.

Yeah, try to stay about a half or full inch away from edges. Also make sure you block sand your car before you paint it.

I have heard this more than once and agree....you are basically reblocking the car one more time. The more work you put into the body/paint process pays off in the end!

Trey, sorry man but to get the look most of these guys here want for their many dollars and or personal time spent will most likely take more than a quick spray and once over with 1500 grade paper. You have to start well below that to get the panels flat again. You will have to start with somthing like 800 or less and work your way up...then it's time to polish. It's a lot of work and man hours but that's the way it's done to get that killer finish.

One of the many problems with the last two paint jobs on my car was that Chris rubbed the hell out of it with 1500 clear up to 3k! He should have started below 1k....he sanded on the car for two weeks and never got the car flat and the orange peel gone...but it did shine and he went threw a boat load of time and product!

The quality of the body work and spray job will let you know what the job needs to get to a 'finished' point. Some times a good professional 'gun finish' is good enough....once you start sanding on paint you have decided to do a lot of work!

Remember quality takes time..........lots of time!

To simply answer your question .......YES!!!
**Spend a little money on a paint job...expect orange peel.
**Spend an arm & a leg on a paint job..get no orange peel(hopefully).
I've seen $25k paint jobs without a flaw on them. Me personally, I can't afford that so I'm fine with my $6k paint job without almost no orange peel. Only I notice it because it's mine and I know where it is. And other paint guys notice it because that's their job. But the average Joe looking at my car thinks it's the best damn paint job he's ever seen.

if you want a "factory" finish paint job, a quicky 1500 denib and cut usually is fine... but when you hear someone talking about zero orange peel in a paint job you should automatically know they are expecting a greater than factory finish paint job. with the 1500 you will be able to get most of the texture and orange peel out but if you look at the panel it will still have a slight "wave" or very mellow texture..

Yes sir and you cant really see the difference in pics. Its just something you have to see in person.

I am just saying, you don't need to do all of that other stuff to get a good paint job. That Mustang probably cost about $700 to do. This is more than enough quality for your average to high level Joe. I am sure you guys could flip your car off a cliff and the paint wouldn't have a scratch on it but spending that kind of money is just ridiculous for your average person. I wouldn't mind doing the extra steps if I painted the car myself but I probably am not going to paint another car so it's not worth it for me to buy the tools. Go to a car show and look at some of the cars, I can point out alot of flaws if I really look at it but most regular people would never notice or will take the time to find them.

I mean, would you rather pay $1000 for a car with a small amount of orange peel or $10,000 for a perfect job? I know I would if I could afford it, but most people can't.

My friend has a 79 Trans Am S/E and has won several car shows with this same paint job and his hasn't been wet sanded or buffed. I am not sure, I only took a quick glance but I remember there was orange peel.

Here are some more of a Grand National, the first two are probably a few hours out of the booth, second two are after the car is finished. Once again, about a $700 single stage paint job. Not sure how much it cost total because the car was stripped down and had other stuff done.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3810/imgp1533.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7427/imgp1532.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4185/imgp1535.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3342/imgp1536.jpg

ill say it again.. you have a lot to learn...:thumbsup:

So GM -- if I get what you're saying - there is one level of sanding which would be getting rid of the orange peel (so an "okay" job) -- and there is a better way -- which is really cutting the clear which would be almost or very close to the same thing as actually blocking the car out? Is that what you're saying? Cause I like your way... which would add flatness to the car yet again?

I have some friends that own a muscle car retail store - they "color sand" almost all the cars - or give them a quicky clear and color sand and buff them - which makes them "shine" and the paint looks "good" - but you can still see all the 'just okay' body panels etc...

You're talking high dollar really GREAT paint jobs?? Where the cars are arrow straight to start with (after body work and blocking)... and now you're taking the paint to that level as well?

:D :rolleyes:

Greg, I think you are understanding him completely.

Trey, I don't take that as a put down, but a reminder. You are young and very green. Take your time and use this forum as a learning tool, there are many builders here with much experiance and are more than willing to help people and answer questions. These guys have been doing this for years and know what they are talking about....respect that and you will be amazed how much you can learn and the friends you can make along the way. :lateral:

I understand what you guys are saying completely, I was just trying to save him a few steps and some cash. I don't think I have ever seen a car done up to your guys standards so I wouldn't even know what it would look like with absolutely no peel or blemishes. I better not see even the hint of a damn wave in the paint when I go to the higher end car show next Saturday :D

You guys are great, I learned something from this. I didn't even know you could do half that crap while painting. I knew you could wet sand the paint in between coats but not near to that extent.

Also here is a pic I took of my friends car. Looks amazing, I didn't see one flaw in that paint except for a little orange peel and some spider cracks in the rear bumper which is natural for these cars. Total cost, $950 :) They didn't wet sand it either so it looked great compared to some of the cars coming through lately. I guess the weather affects the paint alot.

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/5269/1000041d.jpg

Great reply Trey!

There is so much to learn from so many people on this site it's just amazing. Hang out and keep contributing!

I read everything on here I can find -- sometimes I can offer a little teeny bit of help - and sometimes my eyes get opened wide and my brain explodes! :lol:

X2! The internet wasn't invented when many of us were young and learning. Just imagine where the hobby will be when the guys like Trey are middle aged!

Writing that just made me realize how much time and money we might have been able to save if we'd had the information available to us to do things right the 1st time! Just the simple common sense tips you can pick up here are priceless!

I know even before paint is applied to a car many hours of body work must be completed before a near perfect paint job is accomplished. I understand the slicker the paint the more time and of course more money is needed.

The thought of rebuilding a car from the ground up with every part on the car new or redone, and to have a detailed car but to have a so-so paint job seems like a waste.

When I first look at a car I see the wheels, tires, and stance. (These 3 make a huge impression about the attitude of the car) The next area I see is the paint job. Most are clean but some stand out like a sore thumb.

I am not painting my car. My builder is completing all the work except for the engine work (Butler Performance will handle the engine work) and maybe a few other details.

I know my builder/painter knows what he is doing but I like to get opinions from others and talking to everyone in here opens my eyes and lets me know there different ways to complete a certain job.

I am not wealthy so my car is being built in stages (when money is availably) and I am not the only car in the shop. So for a little more money I think I will try and shoot for that near perfect orange peel free paint job. (and hopefully there will be no insects in the booth when the paint is sprayed).

Everyone's thoughts?

Thanks and please keep the idea's and info coming.

Ron
1969 Firebird, 4-speed, Coupe

By the way how do I put the quotes of ours into my post? Sorry I am new at all this and have been a member for a short time.

Thanks.

click on the quote tab below their post (lower right).

Trey, you have a good attitude! :thumbsup:

Thanks Anthony.

Ron
1969 Firebird, 4-speed, Coupe

first and foremost you want a straight, flat canvas. body work and prep are going to be the key to straight car then the paint comes. if you think about it logically, think about a million tiny balls of paint. as you spray, you are "stacking" these particles across the panel. since you have reducer and they are liquid they will melt into each other but not completely they still dont lay out 100% flat. layer after layer will build up and while it may look flat youve actually created a very mellow ripple. the benifit to using the more agressive paper is that it doesnt have to try as hard to cut the tips off these ripples. the 1500 would be what i would concider border line on the abrasive side. its not real agressive. so its not the best for a laser flat finish. if you want to scale it up and try an experiment use some spot putty( imagine it is your clear). sand half of it with 400grit on your hand(this would be your generaly hand polish and denib job) and the other half with 180 on a block( this would be your 1000 grit on a hard foam block) and let me know which side comes out flatter. its the same priciple as the wet sand. i wish i had a drawing to help you visuallize this. the only reason you have to move up to the finer grits is to be sure you can buff the scratches out. in my opinion, the majority of a straight car will be because of the prep. the other part comes from the paint job. i honestly have a couple completely different systems. one for factory finish, one for a local show car and one for real show car.

---factory finish---
-body work finished with 180
-3 coats of high build primer
-320 dry block
-320 dry circle sand by hand(your eye will not be as easily attracted to a curve as it will to a straight line)
-2 coats of sealer
-3-4 coats of base
-2 coats of clear
-denib with 1500 and buff

---local car show---
-body work finished with 180 grit
-3 coats of high build primer
-180 dry block
-2 coats of high build primer(let it cure for a day or two)
-320 dry block
-320 circle sand
-2 coats of sealer
-3-4 coats of base
-3 coats of clear
- 1500 on a hard foam block working up to 2500
-buff

--- real car show---
- same all the way up to base
- 3 coats of clear
- 600 wet on a long foam block
- 3 coats of clear
-1000 grit wet sand on a hard foam block up to 2500


i know there is more than one way to do everything and this is just the way i do it. the average guy would probably look at my factory finish job and be satisfied. the man that runs his nose over his car(hand wash and wax kinda guy) would love the local car show kinda job. then the man that just wants the best period would like the real car show job. i dont think a lot of ppl that havent just ate slept and breathed cars really understand what really goes into the paint jobs on some of the 100k+ cars. theres a lot of man hours and alot of attention to details that will never get a second thought.

trey- i am in no way trying to be rude or condecending. im just trying to give you some good advice and let you know you still have a lot to learn. you should really have a little respect for the quality of these cars and the amount of work put into them. comparing them to a $700 dollar job really isnt even an option. if some one handed me 700 dollars and their car, they would get a lick and a promise. the paint job would look good. but no where near the caliber it would require to do the car any justice. i realize you are young and have "worked hard" on your car but i think as time passes you will realize how truley amazing some of these cars are and the hard work that has been put into them. i think youve found a great place to hang out on this site and you are way ahead of the game. this website takes cars to a whole nother level and you cant do anything but benefit from being on here. keep up the good work and remember to try to stay open minded. the knowlege base on this site is priceless

Thanks guys, I am going to try some of this stuff out on my car. I can probably borrow a gun and get a good smooth base down before the real paint comes.