Calling ALL pro's, I JUST CANT TAKE IT ANYMORE!
 

okay, my starter issue has rose again! Every time i turn the ignition, i hear grinding, bad grinding, sometimes it starts, sometimes it doesnt, battery is FULLY charged, oil is topped and has break in mix, trans is topped with atf, it just does not want to start, why am i having this issue!! could it be my timing is not 100% perfect, that is miss fires and requires the engine to keep turning, weird thing is, even if the engine was miss firing, it wouldnt sound the way it does, this is a LOUD grinding. Engine is brand new, starter is brand new and SHIMMED, the pinion gear comes out, sticks to the flywheel when ignition is hit, and goes back in once the flywheel turns. I have spent way to much time reading and asking people what to do, i have no where else to turn to!

Also, anyone in VANCOUVER BC or LOCAL, please, help me, ill pay you in beer!! (or coffee) or if you rather have cash!

First, if you want a Pro I believe Blake at Killer Customs is in BC. I don't know how close. He is a vendor to the left here. Look under Speed Tech. That is his company as well. How did you pick the correct shims for the starter. A good rule of thumb is to use a medium paper clip as a gauge. Pull the pinion out of the starter so it engages the teeth on the flywheel and lock it down with something. With the Chevy mini starters I just use a wooden wedge. Then straighten the paper clip out and stick it in between the tip of the pinion gear tooth and the root of the flywheel teeth. This should slid in with minimal drag. If it is loose adjust your shims. If it will not go in, adjust your shims. I have helped several friends with this. All had shimmed them based on just getting the pinion to engage. When they were too tight, they made a horrible grinding noise. Anyway I hope you find the issue. Sorry for the long post if you have already done this. Good luck!

That is good information, I'll have to remember when I do mine.

does the paper clip suppose to slide in when the teeth of the pinion are meshed up with the fly wheel gear or when the teeth tip to tip?:willy:

I think he's saying the tip of the starter tooth and the valley of the flywheel teeth.

You need feeler gauges and pin type feeler gauges. You need to check the distance from the end of your starter pinion to flywheel and the distance from the tip of your starter tooth to the flywheel indention. If those are both dialed in correctly, your starter will work flawlessly unless you have chewed up your flywheel teeth. I have to run but there are specs for both measurments. If you starter is to close to your flywheel, it nose must be shimmed as shown below. My advice is to find both specs and make sure they are within tolerance. I bet they aren't.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...9/IMG_0775.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/a...9/IMG_0777.jpg

Todd I was trying to find the post where you told me how to check. Your too fast for me.

You would use the "paper clip version" (about .035 to .040") to check the space (gap) between the ROOT of the flywheel and the tooth of the starter pinion... a view like this.... if this works using the keyboard here.

So that gap is checked between these two points = <.< = The first < being the root in the flywheel - the second is the tooth of the pinion on the starter. The dot is the end of the paperclip. EXCEPT that I can't place the DOT in the crotch of the V's using my keyboard.

Make sense??

Todd --

No offense - But I think your demo is incorrect...

What you're trying to set is the gap BETWEEN teeth....

okay,

i have a starter that looks like this,

http://www.transmissionadapters.com/...i%20torque.jpg

and one that looks like this,

http://i17.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/33/a1/d814_1_sbl.JPG

i am currently using the second type of starter, and when i engage the starter, the pinion pops out, and the gap between the "< <" (meshing of the pinion and the flywheel) is the diameter of a large paper clip. The pinion pops out, BUT does not retract back UNLESS the flywheel is turned, which, i turned manually when i was trying it out, it went back in.

When i use the 1st starter, pictured in the first link above, the pinion is already out, and touches the flywheel when mounted, i removed all shims to make it fit, but still have problems! so i went back to my old one.

I think im going to call someone to check it out, and just pay to get it done, because at the end, ill go through 5 starters!

Camaro --

There are three different flywheel "tooth counts"... and some starters might only mesh with one or the other.

One is 142 teeth, one is 158 teeth - the other is 163

Divide your flywheel/flexplate by quarters and count the teeth and multiply by 4 - to be certain what you have.

RE: The 'grinding' you mention. Is this only when trying to crank the beast over? Does it stop when you disengage the key?

Do you know how to set your static (initial) timing before starting the engine?? If not I can tell you how to get it VERY close for startup...

You need to re read my post. There are "TWO" measurments to make a starter work correctly.

1. The distance between the end of the sterter pinion and flywheel teeth. (What is pictured in my thread previous) Must be over .100 but not greater than .150 from memory.

2. The distance between the tip of the starter tooth and the gut of the flywheel. (how many different size paperclips are there?) I have about 6 in my office. Probably not the best way to check it. Go to sears and get you a set of pin gauges. .035-.060 sounds close.

In picture number two in my previous post, you see a shim sitting on top of the starter housing. This is moving the pinion gear farther away from the flywheel teeth. If it is to close, you starter will not engage properly and will stick in the flywheel teeth. By the way, it's either a 153 or 168 tooth flywheel. If the gears mesh, they mesh.

Sorry Todd --

You're right on the money. I spoke before I really looked. My apologies!

I'm not following your "tooth counts" are we not talking chevy's here?

There's 153 and 168, both of which are irrelevant to starter gears.

Speedtech is very close to you. Take your car there. Good luck.:thumbsup:

Yeah Mark -- we ARE talking Chevys...

There are also 142 tooth CHEVROLET flywheels and 139 tooth flexplates....

Which is why I said maybe he should count them - because who knows?? Maybe he's got a 142 and the gears don't mesh... since we're not there to see for ourselves - might as well cover all the bases!

Here -- go buy a 139 tooth flexplate...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEZ-FPT300/

There are also MANY 142 tooth flexplates AND flywheels for MANY chevrolet engines small and big block.

Since we have no idea of the SOURCE for his parts - might just double check!

As long as you're ordering that 139 Tooth flexplate... might as well get one of these chevy small or big block 142 starter motors to go with it.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TIL-54-20057/


:hail: :hail:

okay, i am going to try the new starter, which has the removable mounting block.

I have: Removed the nose piece, installed a a shim in the mounting block, alighted gasket and housing, and put shim in position, installed back the 3 bolts, made sure armature is sitting flush with mounting block.

i will be making sure that my ring gear clearance (pinion not engaged, measuring to .100 inch)

also, making sure the backlash of the pinion and the flywheel mesh is .15 inch


The thing i am worried with this starter is, the pinion gear is already meshing with the flywheel, and the clearance i would need would require a large shim to move the whole starter back, while leaving the mounting block still bolted to the engine, this would ultimately move my pinion back, and i would be able to to have a clearance or .100

AH so hard to explain, which we could have a video chat with like 10 of us and me explaining lol!

I ll take pictures!


also,

vegas69 right on the money, you were right, look below


http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/o...9/DSC00910.jpg

Speedtechs number is (local to you) 604-460-0204. Call them if this does not work out for some reason. It looks like you have all the information there now so I hope it all works out. Let us know!:cheers:

also, i have pin gauges, maybe 50 of them, one is a classic snap on one, maybe worth something now LOL..

ill keep you guys updated, i now owe, 2 beers (vegas69, 70rs) and a coffee(greg)


:cheers:

Okay -- hope that works for you... if not... I'll come up there myself!! In the interest of good international relations. LOL
:cheers:

No problem man, I've been there done that and if you get everything within spec it will work flawless. Remember that you have + and _ of the spec. The best way to check it is go or no go.

For instance on your ring gear clearance, take a .060 feeler gauge and a .140 feeler gauge. The .060 should go and the .140 should not. The same will hold trud on the pinion back lash. You will need to stack your feeler gauges for the ring gear clearance.:thumbsup:

:hail:
:thumbsup:

I still don't understand why you stated this:

"There are three different flywheel "tooth counts"... and some starters might only mesh with one or the other. One is 142 teeth, one is 158 teeth - the other is 163"

So why no mention of the most common 153 and 168?

Then you give a link to a 139 count, which also isn't included your three set of numbers.

When I search flexplate on the summit website, flexplate-Chevrolet, I get that one with 139, 25 at 153, and 42 with 168 .

Not trying to argue, just wondering.

Hey I'm the one that came up with checking the engaged clearance of the pinion gear in the first place!! :( Just kidding. I'm glad you are on your way to solving the problem. I only mention the paper clip as most people don't have or know where to get pin gauges. The "medium size" is just a rule of thumb to get you a usable clearance.

I am however concerned with one of your statements. When the starter you showed first is mounted, the pinion should not be extended nor engaged without actuating the starter solenoid. If it is, I believe you have an issue with that starter. The picture you show in this link http://www.transmissionadapters.com/...i%20torque.jpg is showing the pinion in it's retracted position for this type of starter. When you bolt it up, you should not have to shim it much to get the .100 clearance. It should absolutely not be engaging the flywheel. Can you get some photos? Unless I misunderstood, that shouldn't be.

Chad.....my mini starter is almost identical to the one you posted a link to. I had almost no clearance between the pinion and flywheel. The shim is about .100 thick.

when mounted the unengaged pinion is TOUCHING the flywheel, therefore i have to shim the so that armature sits back and therefore sits my pinion further back, this will make it so that my pinion will only touch the the flywheel when engaged.

I will take pictures tonight and show you what i mean, that is if it touches again, i shimmed the starter with the expose pinion to fit further back, so wish me luck tonight!

:captain:

THAT would explain the grinding you heard perhaps!!

If you make it down here (I am only 2 hours south of you) I'll take Gregs coffee. :rofl:

Seriously, I didn't do anything at all. I hope it works out. Maybe you will drive it down for one of the shows here? GG Puyallup, Seattle Roadster show? Then I'll get to see it !

Todd,

I never would have guessed that could happen. I have mounted 5-10 of those in the past on small blocks in circle track cars and have never seen that. Learn something new everyday! I had a couple that I would have liked to machine the mounting block to pull it forward, but even then only .02 or so.


Greg,

Absolutely

You're on it's tail now!

Most minin starters are set up for multiple applications. Most will work with 153/168 flywheels and evidentally two different flywheel depths. My engine has been line bored and has an aftermarket crankshaft and flywheel. That definitely comes into play as well. I have the GMPP mini starter so I know it's built to GM specs.

All this proves you have to sweat the details. Hopefully Camaro1969 gets his problem resolved. Good stuff here.

I never used this starter on the car yet, i only mounted it, and once i noticed it touched, i went back to my older starter. I am yet to mount the mini starter with mounting block that i have shimmed.

70rs, yes i will definintely come down south, i bought the car from monroe, and i hear monroe has awesome car shows!

There are some decent shows and a pretty good swap meet at monroe. I am about 30 min west of there. Next time you come down let me know, I'll drag you all over the place and show you the local "car stuff" and a few shops and dealers down here. I can easily burn a whole day just farting around looking at car related places down here. We have a really good interior shop, a couple of good speed shops/tuners, one dealer that is fun to go look at but I would never buy anything there. I'll send you my cell number in a PM.:thumbsup:

There are also a couple of decent cruise ins on Friday night and Saturday nights but they end around the first of October and start back up in the spring. There are also a bunch of teamchevelle and Nastyz28 members around here and all are good people to hang out with.

I'm a little late to the party here, but I just wanted to add that sometimes a freakin starter will gag on the flywheel no matter how well you shim it. I bought a brand new Powermaster mini starter and attached it to my brand new, unmodified GM crate motor and that frickin thing would occasionally just gag and crunch on the flywheel. I had both sets of clearances perfect and the thing still did it occasionally. At first, I thought it might be an insufficient voltage or ground causing the problem, but it wasn't. I pulled that started and replaced it with a Tilton(no shims needed) and the Tilton has worked perfectly every time. It's very possible the Powermaster unit I got wasn't any good. Maybe it was a factory defect or something. It happens all the time so it wouldn't be surprising. I bought it new from Summit and it comes with 'starter dyno' sheet from Powermaster but that doesn't mean it couldn't have a flywheel engagement problem. Anyway, the moral to my long-winded story is, sometimes it's just the friggin starter and you should try a different one.

NO PROBLEM NO ARGUMENT - IT'S ALL GOOD.

as of right now, starter works fine, ill probably message back with another problem! thanks again to the members that helped :cheers:

Vic ---

Better come down to the Monroe Swap Meet on Saturday!

If you are -- PM me and I'll give you my cell number...

Glad it worked out......always happy to help.

#@$% #**& !!!!!!!!!!!

i dont know what to do, issue is back, i thought i was able to do it, but i cant...

i called blake at killer customs, $90.00 an hour, may take a few hours, plus travel time, hate to do it, but i cant afford to pay over 200.00 for something that should be done so easy! I even called a local automotive place, and they told me they dont want to get involved in that, and actually hung up on me! i removed both starters and car is just sitting there,, kills me to see it like this.. dont know what i can do!

I used that one that looks like this, and its hard to measure when the engines in the car, i have less than a foot of space to work under, and pinion is hidden

http://i17.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/33/a1/d814_1_sbl.JPG



The one i have that looks like this (below), the shim that moves the pinion close and further to the flywheels (so that i have a gap of .100 inch, i cant even get the thinest filler gauge in between! and i have already installed the provided shim

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/RS/SR/...91066258_L.jpg