Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird
 

Occasionally my builder has access to parts and cars from others who are trying to sell such items. He has found an OLDER Richmond 5-speed and says he has seen the inside of the transmission and it looks good. He mentioned that the seller has replaced a few internal parts as well as clean the entire transmission. The seller also has a Hurst Shifter to go with the Richmond also.

I guess I have several questions about this transmission.

Is this OLDER Richmond transmission just as good or equal to a NEW Richmond 5-Speed?

Is this a good deal? ($1,400 for all)

Will the transmission fit into my '69 Firebird without any modifications?

Can I use my original console?

Can I use my original Hurst stick?

How much torque can this OLDER transmission take?

Also, can this OLD Richmond be turned into an overdrive? My builder says yes with the correct rear gear, etc. (3.08 or 3.23 gear)

I am not a gear head and I trust my builder but I like to get opinions and information from others.

Thanks for the help.

Ron --

A couple things ---

"older" means what?

I had a Richmond 5 speed once - hated it. It shifted like a truck transmission - maybe worse. It used LONG brand shifter and the shifter was beautifully made but no matter what I did to adjust it - it shifted like a truck.

Second -- beware that some Richmond 5 speeds have a compound LOW not an overdrive 5th gear - be sure you know what you're buying.

Not to cast any "dispersions" on your builder - but you don't turn a transmission into an over drive by changing out the rear end gears.... The Richmond 5 speeds that I know of - had 1:1 final drive ratios... THAT is not an overdrive... an overdrive has something LESS than a 1:1 ratio -- more like .70:1 or .49:1

What he's trying to say is that you could have acceptable highway cruising RPMS by changing the rear end ratio to the 3:23 or 3:08 gears... but that is not what you'd do if you want some performance AND acceptable highway RPMs... if you want that combo -- you need to buy a REAL OVERDRIVE transmission such as a Tremec 5 or 6 speed. Also note that with the Tremecs, you can place the gear shift in different locations.

Check out Keisler Transmission for some information on this kind of stuff. Placement of shifter and gear ratios etc and how they affect cruise rpms etc.

http://www.keislerauto.com/

It's an older transmission meaning several years old.

Please be more specific on how your Richmond shifted. Was it a short gear from 1st to 2nd gear?

At the moment I have not done my homework on transmissions so please educate me on "compound low."

Thanks for your help.

The early plan for the '69 Firebird is to have an engine putting out maybe around 550 to 650 hp with high Pontiac torque. If I remember correctly (and I am probably saying this wrong) my builder said with this type of hp I may not like taking off in first gear or taking off in first gear would be difficult. That it would be difficult to drive in bumper to bumper traffic. This is why he likes the Richmond 5-Speed with the high hp application.

Like I said earlier, I am no gear head so please keep the info coming.

Thanks.

I steered you where to go to check out the other 5 speeds on the market...
Make sure you check them out before committing.

A Richmond 5 speed (non overdrive version) has a 3:28 first gear

A Muncie 4 speed (non overdrive) has a 2:56 or 2:52 first gear.

The 1st gear in the Richmond has you shifting out of first gear in about 10 feet... sorta like an old pickup truck that had a compound low - it's very powerful but you're not going to move very far very fast.

When I said the Richmond shifts like a truck - I meant it shifts HARD -- and SLOW - and is NOTCHY... A new Corvette 6 speed (Tremec) would best be described as a "snick snick" shift - super easy - quick - positive. An old Muncie - when adjusted properly - would also be an easy to shift transmission - and with a "short throw" linkage set up - would also be "snick snick".

Would a short 1st gear be needed in a high horsepower and somewhat of a middle to large cam car? I have never driven a car with extremely high hp so I do not know what it is like taking off in 1st gear. My builder said it would not be pleasant driving in bumper to bumper traffic (that it would be like taking off in 2nd gear in my Toyota truck like you mentioned)

Personally I do not like the short 1st gear but then again I do not want it to be difficult to take off in 1st gear in a high hp car.

What are the specs of this motor? Does it have some nice off-idle torque? Or is it a peaky small block?

I am guessing you do not want this tranny, and for a little more money you can get either a TKO or a T56. I have the TKO and it has a relatively short 1st gear and I would not want anything any shorter like your Richmond likely has.

And I do believe they made a Richmond OD tranny so maybe it does have an overdrive 5th or 6th gear?

Your builder sounds very inexperienced. I would be questioning his judgement.

You asked for an opinion. I've given mine. I owned this transmission and it was a HUGE mistake... I hated it, for all the reasons given. I can afford to tear it out and replace it. Which is exactly what I did.

At the moment my car is still waiting for metal work to be completed. The engine has not yet but the plan is for a 455 or slighty larger ci.

Richmond does make a true overdrive called the Super Street Overdrive.

I guess my MAIN CONCERN is taking off in 1st gear with high hp. I do not want the car to bog down when taking off. Please educate me on this but do all High hp cars bog down? I am just in the dark when it comes to transmissions, etc.

Do you like your TKO? Is your car a high hp car and if so does it tend to bog down taking off or difficult driving in traffic?

Thanks for your help.

He is experienced in restoring and modifying cars. I have seen his past work and the cars he is restoring at the present time. That is why this site is so very helpful getting the knowledge and opinions of others is extremely important to me.

If I did buy this Richmond would it be difficult to sell it in the future?

Thank you for your help and your opinion.

500 hp from a 455 cubic inch motor is almost STOCK...

My 427 small block chevy makes 489 foot pounds of torque as measured at the REAR WHEELS...it idles @ 900 rpms - runs A/C... etc.

Taking off in first gear with 455 cubic inches "or more" is NOT going to be an issue. If you were running 800 hp from a N/A small block... that might be an issue...

Ron,

Do some more research BEFORE you buy. Why would you ask an opinion - and then turn right around and go against that advice - and then ask what it would take to bail out of that dumb decision? Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind - you trust your builder. I would bet he's never driven a car with this transmission... 'cause if he had he wouldn't be recommending it.

Ron --

Why don't you look into doing a POLL here -- you can post a poll - and get votes on various transmissions - 6 speed - 5 speed od - 5 speed richmond non od - muncie 4 speed etc.


My guess is you'd not get one single vote for the Richmond non OD transmission. Seriously -- post up a poll. It would be interesting to see what the response would be.

This is why I like the opinions and advice from others. The overall plan for the car and engine is not set in stone. I have thrown out to my builder that I want a high torque 550+ hp with Butler Performance building the engine. Butler has a 474 to a 501ci that looks temping.

There are two issues being mixed up here - the overall ratio in first gear and the ease or difficulty of shifting the transmission.

Many trucks have a very low (high numeric) first gear to get a heavy load going. The 3.28 first gear of the Richmond coupled with a "normal" rear end ratio in the mid-3.XX or higher numerically, would give you a super low first gear - you'd be wound out at 20mph. But if the car is geared for the transmission, this can easily be avoided.

The overall gearing of a Tremec TKO600 with the .67 5th gear and a 3.55 rear from first to 5th is as follows: 10.19 - 6.71 - 4.54 - 3.55 - 2.38

The overall gearing of the Richmond which has a 1.0 5th gear and a 3.08 rear from first to 5th is as follows: 10.10 - 6.56 - 4.84 - 3.82 - 3.08

So the two can be made very comparable until you look at 5th gear. To put it in more understandable terms, the Richmond would have you turning about 2,700 to 2,800 rpm at 70mph, the Tremec would have you turning about 2,100 to 2,200 rpm at 70mph. Also, depending on what rear is in the car, the Richmond may require a change in rear ratio, but if you're planning on redoing the rear end anyway, that may not be a big issue.

The second issue is shift quality. An internal rail shifter (the Tremec) is likely to be smoother than the external shifter (the Richmond) if for no other reason than it's protected from the elements. I drove one Richmond and found it very notchy. My internal rail T56 shifts like butter.

There have been some issues with the 2-3 shift in the Tremec TKO600, but most attribute those problems to operator error. I'd also check out the size of the Richmond shifter. I saw a first gen F-body with either a Richmond 5 or six speed that required a lot of cutting on the trans tunnel to accommodate the Long shifter.

Overall, if it were me, I'd skip the Richmond and go with either a Tremec TKO600, a Magnum T56 six speed or a used T56 six speed.

I am definitely going to take more time to research transmissions and talk to others about this subject. I am very picky and I want to do it right the first time around.

He has mentioned that he has used the Richmond in the past.

How do you post a poll?

Thanks.

The main thing a poll will determine is who has the most successful advertising department.

I don't know how or why you'd say that. A poll on this website would give you a broad array of some very knowledgeable people - who've been there and done that. In fact - if you just looked through the "project introductions" on this website - or over at Pro-Touring.Com - my guess is you wouldn't find a single person planning on using a Richmond non OD 5 speed. There's a very good reason for that... and it has nothing to do with "advertising". You know that because you've shifted (driven) one of these beasts - and have compared it to the far superior Tremec.

I have no axe to grind in this - I don't care what he does - I won't have to drive it. He asked for opinions on this transmission and I have TRIED to give him some honest no BS feedback.

Now -- I hope he buys it -- so when he drives it he can come back and post "dang! I should have listened to you"! :rofl: :cheers:

BTW - RON - Your builder must have a personal interest in this particular used transmission - otherwise there is NO WAY he'd advise you do put it behind a HUGELY TORQUEY Pontiac big block... particularly since this is an all new fresh build - so tranny tunnel mods etc should not be any issue... and NOBODY puts in a non overdrive transmissions these days... it would just be a complete waste of time and money. The beauty of having an overdrive transmission - is because you can have performance AND cruisability - something that was unobtainable "back in the day".

Follow the instructions.


https://lateral-g.net/forums/faq....b_poll_explain

For my part I prefer hard data and information to random expressions of opinion. Although there are people here with great experience, a poll isn't going to show who's voting. So all you get is numbers.

It's been my observation that people tend to recommend what they've purchased themselves, even if it's still sitting in the box because their car isn't done yet. That's a recommendation that's pretty worthless to me. You and I have said the Richmond is notchy, that Tremecs shift smoother, and I gave a comparison of the the gear ratios for the two. A request for input comparing the shifting of the two might be useful; a poll - not so much.

Good point.

I was thinking though - that given the amount of OVERWHELMING choices that a poll would show - might convince him that MOST people are not looking to install a clunky old skool Richmond.

Thanks Mike and Greg. This is what this site is all about.

Please keep the information coming because I am trying to soak up all the car information I can.

Please talk more about the cause and solution of the bogging down issue with high hp.

Thanks.

What engine are you putting in the car, what heads, how big are the intake runners, how big a cam, what induction system and what transmission and rear gear are you going for? My guess is you don't need to worry about a bog off idle, but some info on your build might help.

I have owned a couple of Richmond 5 speeds, and driven several more. I would never buy one again when there's the TKO and T56's out there that are MUCH nicer shifting (my opinion) and give you overdrive. I also think $1400 is high for that trans.

My two cents.

Jody

I am still waiting on metal work to begin and the engine decision (among other things) has not been make just yet. I want a built 455 and my plan is to have Butler Performance in on the build. So when the engine time comes I will get with Butler and others to see what is the best choice for me. (which will be another thread in the future).

But it sounds like most everyone in here so far does not think Richmond is the way to go. Please keep the information coming on the experiences with Richmond and other transmission. Also please give all the benefits of the TKO's, etc.

Thanks.

Please give me your pro's and con's on your TKO.

Thanks.

The TKO and T56 are stronger, smoother shifting, and both give you an overdrive gear (T56 has two). Really no comparison. When Doug Nash (now Richmond) came out with the 5 speed it's main benefit was less rpm drop between gears, and with the lower first gear ratio you could run a taller rear gear and lower your cruising rpms as compared to the factory Muncies.

But they just don't shift all that well, and since they do not have overdrive the TKO's and T56's are a much better alternative.

Jody

You've gotten three responses from people who have driven both transmissions. All three thought the Tremec shifted much nicer than the Richmond. You've had the gearing explained and an example of the resulting rpm range given.

Here's where (I think) it gets to be you who needs to do some of the work if you really want an explanation of "all the benefits of the TKO's, etc." A simple search will get you lots of information.

That said, I'm surprised you still need further explanation given the the Richmond is 0 for 3 based on personal experience.

Is there an rpm drop with the TKO?

as compared to what? Compared to a Richmond 5 speed, yes, the TKO has an overdrive gear for fifth instead of the Richmonds 1:1 fifth gear. If you're cruising down the freeway at 70 mph with the Richmond and you're turning say 2800 rpms, you'll be between 1800-1900 rpms at the same speed with the TKO, depending on whether you run the TKO500 or the 600 (one is .64 overdrive fifth and the other is .68).

Jody

As was already stated... a big cube torquey engine will have no problems taking off, but it will be a bear with a short 1st gear.

All high hp cars do not bog down. There is no generalization. This is why we are asking about your motor specs as that will tell what driving characteristics it will have. 2 motors with the same hp number can operate and drive night and day differently. EFI vs carb has something to do with low speed drivability too.

I like my TKO so far (only 250 miles) but I wish I woulda got a T56 for the taller first gear. I have an EFI procharged small block with a fairly big cam, but taking off is not a problem.

The only way I could see you using this Richmond trans is if it was free or $100. It is way overpriced I think, and there is a good reason everyone is running either a TKO or T56.

This is one of those times it's okay to follow the masses. :D

Like I said earlier I am not a gear head and talking about the good and bad about a part or item in depth gives me better understanding and teaches me about cars in general. And I admit I do sometimes ask the same questions but it's just to learn more.

I appreciate all the help but with more opinions comes more knowledge for me.

And yes the TKO sounds like the way to go.

You mentioned when Doug Nash (now Richmond) came out with the 5 speed it's main benefit was less rpm drop between gears...so does the TKO have a drop off between gears?

Now I see. So when building my motor I need to be specific (with the builder) on what type of motor I want.

The T56 taller first gear means....you can hold it longer?

Thanks.

every transmission has a drop off between gears; that's what makes the car go faster as you upshift. If the gears did not change the car would not accelerate.

The TKO is like a 4 speed with an overdrive gear to lower rpms for fifth gear. The Richmond 5 speed would have less drop between gears as it has five gears from start to 1:1 ratio gear whereas a TKO and T56 have 4............. however, the Richmond doesn't have the overdrive which is a big deal to anyone who goes on the freeway or takes long trips. The overdrive fifth gear will lower engine rpms, less wear and tear, less engine noise when cruising, engine will last longer, and better fuel economy as it isn't spinning as fast.

With respect, I'm a little worried about what you're embarking on.

You needn't be an automotive engineer to own one of these old, retro-modded muscle cars, but a fair amount of familiarity with cars, how they work, basic trouble shooting techniques (is the noise associated with engine speed or car speed) and the like is awfully helpful, otherwise you are at the mercy of your local mechanic, who may or may not even be willing to work on an older, modified car.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but rather to urge you to do a lot of reading, starting with the basics of how engines, transmissions, rear ends, etc. all work, and moving up from there. You also need to know every part that's on your car - i.e., the front brakes came from a 2002 Corvette; the transmission is out of a 2000 Camaro - just to be able to get parts and to get it worked on.

FWIW, Larry, the owner of PT.com has a Richmond in his car and says it's getting swapped out SOON!

I have driven cars with T56's and liked them a lot! I have a T56 for my car and got it for $1100 and it's a fresh rebuild out of a '97 Camaro.

There ya go....in my mind, I have a far better trans for less money and wouldn't even consider buying the Richmond.

Remember, just because you hired a builder doesn't mean they get to choose the parts....this is your car/build and you make all final decisions...otherwise this isn't going to end well! Job one is to know what you are building and understand it....you are talking a lot of money here, especially when you are paying for labor! Don't get in a hurry...you have time to learn....we all had too!! :)

Come up with a plan that will make the car as reliable as possible. Putting an old richmond behind a big block pontiac probably isn't a wise choice. When I put my foot on the floor I want to feel confident that I'm not going to scatter a tranny, rear end, drivshaft, etc. So.....
What is your intended purpose for the car?
How much power do you plan to generate?
What rear gear ratio will you be running?
What highway speeds do you frequent?

I would plan on a blow proof bellhousing and a tko 600 or t56 magnum for the power you should generate out of a 455 Pontiac. Otherwise, you will eventually be on the side of the road scratching your head and wishing you put a tranny behind it that was meant to hold up to the torture. If you are a car show guy that putts around, then you can get away with almost anything.