Vision Too Big For Bank Account????
 

I was talking to a board member last night and we started discussing the fact the we are seeing more and more unfinished projects showing up for sale. What's the deal? I understand the economy is bad and all, but I'm looking at this in a different light. Alot of these projects were started way before any of this happened. Some were already stalled before the bust.

My question is: Is it better to have a finished 40-70K car that you can drive and enjoy or an unfinished 150K+ car that you have to sell because you are 40-70K in and can't see the end of the tunnel?

Is this a product of poor planning up front, lack of knowledge in what it takes to get to a particular level of build, or was there a reasonable budget in the beginning and then things went south after spending many hours looking at build threads saying I want that or I need to get rid of this to get that or something else?

We are victims of my last scenario. We changed from a Big Block we had to an LS mostly due to my time on this site. LOL Is it going to be cool, hell yeah. Is it going to be alot more money, Hell yeah! I find myself now trying to treat our project more like I treat my projects at work. What is needed, what is wanted, what's the budget? I don't want to have a 50K pile of parts that I have to sell for 30 2 years from now.

I just thought I would throw this out and get some input. Maybe people starting builds or progressing along will be able to gain or keep some focus as they move forward.

Remeber, You can't have 1000hp TT taste on a 350hp Q-jet budget!

What's everyone think? :cheers: :lateral:

I've noticed the same thing lately. All kinds of projects not even half done with a boat load of quality parts. The fact of the matter is they will need to take a hurting of at least half to off load the project.

These projects take a long time to plan and execute. They Always cost more than you think. They are also the first to go in any hardship. This site is horrible for the check book. If I knew then what I know now, I probably wouldn't of built this car. I have to be honest. I have way to much money tied up in it. I'm my own worst enemy. Remind me to never build a custom house. :rofl:

Todd,

Absolutely! It's because of that my Camaro is still stock! :lol:

This board is such a bad influence. My project changed a bit thats for sure.
It will take me longer to finish, but Im not going to give up, I'm driving this damn car.

I agree and disagree. This site has definitely cost us more money, but I don't think the project would be as nice as it is going to be with out this site. I think you just have to be diligent in managing your budget. Some may even have to develop a budget to start with. I've talked to several people that just strt building with no idea where they are going!

Im one of "those" But Im selling for health reasons. In a year or two I could finish it but I just hate to have it sit. I bought parts for the time were in. In a couple years who knows what new parts will be out. Then what are my parts worth?
I look at it like this. I dont have to sell it. If I dont Ill finish it later. But Im giving someone else a chance to build a car with top of the line parts for thousands off!

Perhaps its because the price of finished projects is down driving folks to cut bait and look to pick up a nice car cheap

I also think a big part of it is time. It takes a long time to finish a huge project and I think a lot of people get burnt out on spending money over a period of years and never getting to enjoy it.

I've seen the exact same thing in the restoration side of the hobby, too.

The situation is multifactorial. First it takes twice as long to build. Within that time things come up and life can change, especially if its 2-4 years as most are. With those normal life changes over a 2-4 year period, money situations possibly change, creating whole new set of reality. Secondly, the project ALWAYS costs 2-3X more than you think. No matter what level of build it is. You combine a triple expense with a double time period and given the chances of life changes, cars get sold early, projects get put on the back burner, etc.

Love the PT cars. None better for me.

Scott hit the nail on the head. The majority of projects get to that stage where the owner starts to justify the amount of money spent and the amount needed to be spent. Then you look at what you "could" buy with that money, and the doubt starts to creep in.

I tell all of our customer this, "How many times are you going to build (insert car make/model here)? Everyone always says "once". I say, "So then take your time enjoy the process and do what you want within your means." If it takes 10 yrs, then it takes 10 yrs. In the end you will have the car of your dreams and all those memories to look back on.

Some of the projects I see end up costing "double" when a clear plan isn't followed. I call that "scope creep". And this site is great at doing that. I see stuff on here all the time, that makes me drool! In my mind this is the NUMBER 1 thing to a successful project - staying on plan.

For me it's a bit of both. I learned some hard lessons along the way, lost lots of cash, and ended up having to re-do everything at least twice. I guess for me I was running into uncharted territory; I was planning 50/50 in 1998, and started building it in 99 at the age of 22. No one had ever tried a transaxle back then, and full frame cars were almost unheard of.

Now I find that I should have kept that green car as a running, driving, enjoyable vehicle. Now I'm way over 6 figures in the damn thing, and it's almost back to square one. Body kit prototyping? Trash. First full frame? Trash. All the metal work we did? Rusted. Running/driving again? At this pace, another decade.

Now I'm selling one, or both of my 68 Camaros. Which ever sells first will determine what I do with the cash made. If the black car sells first, then I keep 50/50 and give Rodger all my cash and start walking to work. If 50/50 sells, then the black car gets a new F&R suspension, vinyl wrap and LSX/T56 upgrade.

This is the most expensive hobby to be in at the moment.

Tyler

With out getting to personal I dont understand when people say "if I new then what I know now" the future cant be predicted. You obviously have a huge passion for this hobby, perhaps you may have built your car differently. Is it knowing the state of the economy now as opposed to then and not spending the funds at all. At some point your passion is going to lead you in to spending it now or later.

I built my 67 around the same time, and spent a boat load, I dont regret it. Im doing another one now and have a basement full of high dollar parts, it will get done, you are right about the execution taking a long time, for me it always seems that Im waiting on a vendor, and it becomes out of my control.

Maybe poor planning is responsible for a lot of projects being on the market. I think its a combination of long term projects especially the ones that go on for years and then financial hardship forcing the sale.

Rich

I think a lot of guys jump into the project before truly adding everything up. I know I really wanted to put an ls in my car and thought ill just save up 5k and buy a good used one with a trans on ebay. Well after that I realized by the time I change the fuel tank, fittings/lines, mounts, tuning, accessories, etc.. im in near another 5k. And once you buy one part you feel obligated to buy the other stuff to accomidate it. I know im not the only one who has done this. After doing this three or four times you are way over budget and possibly in debt with a long way to go. I guess that is why they say hindsight is 20-20.

Yep, same stuff happened to me during my build, and mine wasn't half as complex as some of these I see out there. Much more time and money than I thought it would be. And I'm still spending to get it right. It just goes on and on. That's the very reason why I dumped all the details into my own build site, to give people some realistic insight into what it really takes and how all those small things and parts and costs really add up. My site is more of a 'warning' than anything. A few of the people who have signed my guestbook have mentioned things like "thanks for opening my eyes" and "I had no idea", so I hope maybe my passing along of details is helping a few people in one way or another.

Yes, Lateral-g has cost me some money also, but without it and the contributions of all its members, I probably would have never built my car and made some great friends from here. So to hell with my empty wallet, it was worth it.

Just a sign of the times. I attribute some situations creating to a budget when times were good. Followed by being too far into the project to adjust when our economy crashed. Luckily I never had the capital to dream of building a six figure car so I still have mine. I will agree though it kinda bugs me at times when I think about the other things I could've spent my money on. Oh well, love the car and wouldn't change a thing.

I think most of it comes down to cash. If I was half way thru my build now it would be up for sale. Times are not what they were before it’s going be a couple of years until that changes. I could not walk past a half done project “pile of cash” in the garage when the wife is trying to scrap every penny for bills and food shopping. My work is really slow and if it stays that way I will sell it completed for a loss and be ok with it. The first things to go are the toys in bad times.

This whole discussion is EXACTLY why I personally chose to build my own "shed" -- and stuff it full of tools -- and I choose to do 98% of my own work... Okay -- I fully understand that I have the TIME and money to do that... and many people don't have the time - but have the funds etc. But I - and many people I know - chose to "invest" in their HOBBY and plan to continue to invest over a long period of time - to be able to continue to do what they love doing. I have a couple real "average" cars... it's the best I can do... they're never "done" - and have lots of road rash... I've restored the same car several times... It's a hobby.

#1 - I can afford to buy any car I want = repeatedly - so what! Who cares. NOBODY.

#2 - I like DRIVING my cars not showing them... so it's a different build level for ME. I don't want something I can't enjoy anytime anywhere. Look what Charley does with his cars - tell me he's not having F U N... and it doesn't have to be a RING Brothers build (keep reading)

#3 - It's a HOBBY -- not a bigger "D***" process for me personally. I LOVE reading about how much FUN Steve R is having with his car... But I don't have to build one like it... I love seeing the RS Corvette being thrashed at Optima... but I'll never own a car anywhere near as kool...

#4 - I understand my limitations - and build what I can... budget is not the constraint for me - skill is... but by building stuff yourself - your skills gradually get better. (keep reading)

#5 - It's a HOBBY. Mark Stielow works all day with cars - and comes home and "relaxes" by building one for himself. :hail: :hail:

#6 - I'm eternally grateful for the pros and the people willing to do pro builds. It's what lifts us all up and what we shoot for... like pro sports stars.. but I still have to wipe the drool off and build what I can. Only in my dreams will I EVER be able to do anything near some of these guys.

#7 - It's ALWAYS all about the money.... I don't care what anyone says... If money is no object - then the builds get finished - finished quicker - and then they get sold 'cause they're worth more done than the sum of their parts rusting and dusty in a heap.

#8 - It's a HOBBY. Try to keep it just that, regardless of the level someone else is capable of.

#9 - This website doesn't cause people to spend too much money on a build... A persons EGO causes them to spend money they can't afford to spend. It's like a gun doesn't kill people - people kill people... some use a gun.

#10 - I'm always sorry to see someone sell their dreams. Hopefully it's a good learning experience... and they'll stick with this HOBBY and perhaps be a bit more reasonable with their expectations.

#11 - It's a HOBBY... Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans.

I'm not "dumping" on anyone here - nor pointing any fingers - nor trying to cause a fight and flame session.... But the fact is - whether we're building a house - remodeling one - or doing a car - or a boat... "WE" can all get over our heads whether thats time management - skill level - or wallet size... And one of my favorite sayings is - I don't care how much money you make - you have the ABILITY to spend more...

MY HOBBY comments are made because if it's a hobby -- hobbies take time - over a long period of time - and should never be based on "what it's going to be worth". If these builds get canceled because they're not going to be "worth" continuing - then the builder/owner shouldn't have started in the first place. That was NEVER what this hobby was.... and if you think it was - then you've been watching WAY TOO MUCH Barrett Jackson. :rofl:

I'll leave it with this... I love fussing with my hobby -- but I love fussing around with the FRIENDS I've made because of my hobby, more. In the end - it's about the PEOPLE - not the cars... The pasta is just there to get the sauce to your face.. cars are that way for me... I've met GREAT people of all walks of life because the car hobby makes me get out and do stuff... I have friends whose cars break down every time they drive them... and I'm called upon to help rescue them... and we always end up having fun with the "experience". I have friends that have MILLIONS of dollars invested in cars... and we have just as much fun blowing their stuff up - or scheming about "what coulda shoulda"...

I'd like to have Ironworks - or Prodigy - or Comp-Spec build me a car - but not because I want to impress any of you with how much I can spend - I'd do it because I'd love to hang with them - and learn from them - and be friends long after the build was finished... I can buy their shops and close 'em up and never skip a beat... but I'd sweep their floors for months just to be around what they're doing. Does that make sense to anyone? It's why we all hang around Lat G isn't it? The hobby. I don't care if people even own a car... if they love the hobby and choose to participate, regardless of their level. :cheers:

[QUOTE=GregWeld;259859[/......but I'd sweep their floors for months just to be around what they're doing. Does that make sense to anyone? It's why we all hang around Lat G isn't it? The hobby. I don't care if people even own a car... if they love the hobby and choose to participate, regardless of their level. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

This sums it up for me as well. :cheers:

I'm just a young'n, but I listen and watch people. I do think many people's visions are too big for theyre account (I could be wrong haha)

It's a hobby that costs money. I don't want to to judge, but I feel you have to have money to be in this hobby, unfortunatley I don't, and thats why you dont see pics of my '69 Olds in the project section. (Rendering's in the art section) LOL

I think the cost of buying parts makes for a reasonable build, it's when you hire someone to assemble those parts, it becomes expensive...it has to be, its called profit.

I've noticed what you guys said already is true, this site pushes people, could be a good or bad thing, IMO you have to know what you want. Heres an example...Im not buying an LS engine for my Olds. I know what I want, my olds is a mix of pro touring/pro street. The engine I want is a 700+hp, 12:1 455. I like ole' Skool compression....(It sounds better) LOL

Some can argue that my engine will cost as much if not more than buying an LS, but that's not my point. Some people are swayed a little more, they have to be the best of the best, and thats a good way to blow your budget...you always want more.

When it comes down to it...I think the main thing to think about is time. When you dont have the money, you dont have the money, store the car live your life, return to it later. I for one, don't envision paying someone 6 figures to build my Olds (Unless I become a big name car designer). As of now, I plan on building it myself, and just pay parts and meterials....

Adding to that.. I feel you would apprectiate your car more too. I'm restoring my own trim right now (As minute as it may sound) It's very rewarding (and if someone was to scratch it, I would kill 'em!)

That's just my opinion of course, I hope I don't cause any conflict haha

Good topic, and I'm hoping not to fall into the category. I think you really, really have to love this hobby to spend as much money as we do on a 30 - 40 year old vehicle. Is it worth it? Each of us has to answer that for ourselves.

Greg, you should do a road trip, Start sweeping at Tony's house, then my house, then Brunning shop floor, then ... etc. 'll even grill you a burger to eat, to keep your energy level up.

Greg,

I'll come with ya. I'll make sure to keep the dust pan empty while you sweep. With two of us, we can trade off drivers and cover twice as many shops.

There'd be an awful lot of clean shops and two very happy campers. If I ever win the lottery, that's my idea of a cross country experience. *

disclaimer: I'd actually have to play the lottery to win I suppose. :P

I agree with Greg When I was 16 I met the guy who is going to paint my car for me. I'm 54 and he's been doing paint work before I knew him. I used to hang around his garage all the time . I did masking block sanding and other small stuff for him , not for pay but it was where I hung around. What ever he needed I would be glad to help. I was away from his garage for quite a few years until I got back into the hobby. When I went to see him and show him my car it was like I never left. I sliped back in like it was 30 years ago. These people will be my friends for the rest of my life whether we see each other all the time or not.

When I started my build I was working 26-2700 hours a year. My wife and I talked and decided I would keep anything over what we needed to live our lives, for the car. It was easy to pick up parts for my build. Then I had to quit what I was doing because of my health, luckely I had a good pension to fall back on. It will definately slow me down but anything I got or had done to the car, I had the money to pay for it. So if it has to wait it will. The money I've spent so far I could have had it done back to # match for less but its not what I wanted. Someday I will make it to a Powertour with my car but that will have to wait too, which will make it that much sweeter when it happens.

Home and family comes first and the hobby has no experation date. I hope it works out for all who have fallen on hard time.
Wayne

I have had quite a few customers that have gone through this in the past year or so. I see 2 kinds of customers,

1) DRUG ADDICT - These guys walk in my shop and look at everyone elses cars in shop, due to their passion for the journey of creativity and fabrication. If you were a by stander and saw some of these customers walk in my door, you would be hard pressed to know which car in the shop is theirs. These guys like the Journey more then the destination.

2) Big EGO guys - You have the guy who walks and thinks his car is the only one in the shop. The world revolves around him. He is just here for the laundry list of mods. He looks at you as the bidder for the work he is looking to have done. Not so much worried about quality or what have you, Just wants A, B, and C. He wants to be in the scene or be like that bad ass guy in high school that he never was. Most truly rich guys that are like this just buy cars at Barret Jackson. Or they realize to even be the big shot you have to have the latest greatest.

3) There is a very rare 3rd type that, Comes in and does not know anything and with education will choose quality and not the lowest bidder. These guys are usually referrals, they know and trust you from an outside source. I have only had one of these guys in 9 years. He did not know what whitewall tires, or even a small block Chevy was. He did not know what a burn out was. ( Seriously ). He wanted a 1946 Packard 4 door to be restored so he could drive it from California to Florida. I told him for months we did not restore cars. Now he has an LS engine 1946 Packard that looks super original, but will be a 6 figure car and he is cool with that.

The reason I give a description is this splits the guys into the point in life where they might sell the project when times get tough. And there are exceptions. But guy # 2 would be the first to sell his car, cuz more then likely he is over extended in his trying to keep up with the Jone's. Sometimes I wonder if those Jone's get any commission.

Guy #1 would probably let the house go back to the bank and the old lady leave him on the corner with his project, but he will never sell that car. These guys have to get broken down pretty far in order give up their dreams. But these guys don't do much else as far as hobbies, these guys eat sleep and breath building cars. When they are done with their latest project they are thinking about the next.

I think it might be pretty amazing how thin a car guy might spread them selves to see their dream come to life. I think there are more projects that never get finished then those that actually do. I have heard some of my customers tell me that a drug habit would be cheaper then what they spend on cars each month. Just due to the fact, your body could not possibly do that much drugs.

When you get into the higher end cars the percentage of your income that is spent on cars I thinks gets lower. If a guy makes 40 grand a year, I could see him spend 10% of that if his financial position would allow it. Do you think a guy smart enough to make a million a year will spend 100 grand each year? Not as likely. This hobby is expensive.

I think the state of our economy has shown how thin people have spread themselves. And it also shows how bad some people may actually have it these days.

VERY TRUE WAYNE!! Well said my man. I agree 100%. Take care of your responsibilities first, toys second.
But, I do think a lot of the builds have come "under fire" because of the current economy. Just about everyone is taking a hit with that. Time also plays an important role. But, you must beforehand that these builds cost LOTS of time & money!!! Preparation is key!
Good luck to all!:thumbsup: :cheers:

I have to add just one little bit more...

I have a buddy - a retired butcher... he has a 56 Nomad too... it's a pretty decent 30 footer... and mechanically challenged... He's running an cast off set of headers I gave him - and my old Heidts tubular A arms w/disc brakes up front... and until recently had the original (rebuilt) 265 and a powerglide... There's an "early horse blanket" on the front seat...

BUT this guy gets more SMILES PER MILE than any man I've ever known... and I don't care where you go - he knows everybody and everybody knows him. Nobody EVER says a bad word about him - or his car... except... they do shake their head with amazement when he tells them he's just driven it round trip to Colorado - or Hot August Nights - or Boise... He doesn't own a wrench... doesn't even have a garage. The car is parked in a carport when not being driven... He put cardboard under it to catch the drips.

Recently - a group of his friends stuffed a 350 and a TH350 in it over a weekend and a lot of beer.... he's there to step and fetch tools - and to open another one... He has ZERO grease on himself... nobody cares.

He L O V E S his car... and all the PEOPLE that go with it. I envy him.

ROAD TRIP! ROAD TRIP! ROAD TRIP!

I'm in!

Have broom - will travel!


:lateral: :cheers: :woot:

The economy isn't my excuse, I felt the downturn before the first bolt was pulled off my car. About mid 2006. I don't live beyond my means but don't tell me there aren't a few decision you've made that you look back on and go hmmm... Anyway, I don't regret building my car. I love my car and wouldn't sell it for $150k.(I know that won't happent) I simply wouldn't want to go back through the process of building it. I'm not one of those guys that enjoys the process more than the finish line. I like to beat the piss out of my stuff. If it get's cone rash all the way down the side, :D I just smile. It comes off, if it doesn't then it will get fixed when I freshen it up down the road. I guess what I meant was if I knew then what I know now, I would have bought a car with reasonable paint and made the changes to that car. I probably wouldn't of built it quite this nice either. The problem is, once you're all in, you're all in. You must protect your investment and the flow of the car. Luckily, I have done a major load of the work and that's saved me alot of cash. I can't imgagine paying someone to do all the little stuff. It just adds up so fast and really makes the car.

Greg... my shop floor is a little dirty. Any chance you traveling east bound ? :lol:

Greg
 

Although I haven't met you in person, I hope someday we get a chance to have a few beers together. I love what you have to say, and you articulate it so nicely.

I have the Green 69 Camaro in "Projects" called LS3 Transplant, and wish like hell I had more car buddies locally. Soo many people look at what I'm building (other than my wife, she gets it) and think I'm nuts and ask "why?". How can you explain it other than it's what I enjoy and how I relax. I agree driving the parts of Power Tour over the years has s allowed me to meet a ton of nice car folks, but wrenching with friends would be even better.

Your post made my day!!!:thumbsup:

We need a neiborhood based around PT car's like living on a golf course but we will just have gargages in the hood and you will have to own or be able to contribute to the hobby???? anyone with me....:lateral:

Great way to paint a picture Greg...

I like the simplicity of the whole thing.

Best post I've read in awhile. :thumbsup:

Take care of your health issues first !! Hope all is going to be okay!! Sux but I hear where your coming from...:cheers:

Todd- Thats cool, I get it. I guess I fall into the catogory of the big chase and love to build, I too try to do as much myself and it truly does save a lot of money. This allows me to spend the money on the expensive big ticket items, definatly the Drug Attic. Now where do I find that rehab center :rofl:

With out a doubt, you guys have made my car building journeys educational and cost effective and your a fine group of coconuts as well.

Rich

after reading through this entire thread, this one quote states exactly the way I have always thought when it comes to cars. my Camaro is nothing special, but after I built it (for the second or third time), friends and family kept telling me that I'm wasting my money because I'll never get the money back. I just told them it doesn't matter, and they will never understand.

some people think I've "wasted" too much money on cars in my life. I think they've "wasted" too much time not enjoying life.

I am the second paragraph, My car was a mistake. I never meant to go all out crazy on it.

Wow, I never imagined when I was eating my lunch at work today and starting this thread based on an off the cuff conversation that this kind of insight would be laid out. Thanks to everyone that has posted so far. I think anyone working on or starting a project would be well served to read through what all you guys have had to say.

Personally, I am trying to stay focused because the project I am working on is my Dad's. He has trusted me to bring his dream vehicle to reality. He has work multiple jobs (construction) all his life to provide for our family. He has let me do whatever I wanted. I've raced go-karts, rode atv's, he put me through college, we built my 69 Camaro in High School, we raced stock cars and now it is his turn. That's why it is important to me to actually get to the end of this project.

Other than changing engine choices (which he was fully in favor of) we have tried to avoid alot of these pit falls. We try to plan steps ahead so that we know where the expenses are and what we have to spend each step.

We also try not to buy then re-buy. For example we almost fell into the "Bigger Brake" pit. We have 13" 6 piston Wilwoods for the front and 12" 4 Piston for the rear. Then they came out with the 14" stuff. Do we NEED 14" 6 piston mono-blocks all the way around for what he wants to do with the truck. NOPE! Were they new, trick, and twice the price YES! That extra 14-1500 will be used very well someplace else.

Even trying to be smart, this stuff is still expensive.

In the end, no matter what it turns out like I would never trade the time my Dad and I are spending together working on this truck. The new friends that I have met along the way from this site and other places are just bonuses! It's not just about the cars.

:cheers:

I have 5 acres of grass to mow this summer,I will let you use my tractor :lol:

I'm on the same page a Greg just with a lot less tools (for now:unibrow: )

I am a car guy through the bone. Even waisted 7 years in a marriage with a girl that kept me away from them. Now she is gone and I am happy with my understanding wife :lol:

I will own many projects in my life. Some will finish so will not but I will be collecting tools and equipment the whole way to do it myself.

I know my limitations with money and I won't put myself under water.

I am in a phase of my life now (3.5 year old daughter whom I can't get enough of, very busy with work, etc) where I don't have much time at all for building my car, so it will take a long time to complete, and that's just fine with me. When I was younger (and especially when I was single!), it seemed time was relatively unlimited and I was banging out big project after big project...For me, I like the building of the car as much, if not more, than when they are finished. So nowadays I am focused on setting up my small garage/shop, and working a lot slower than I used to.

I keep costs in control (my definition, not my wife's!) by mostly buying new or slightly used parts secondhand, wherever possible. That way I don't feel like I have a giant amount of "real" money tied up in the project. I tell people all the time, that if you just have the patience to wait, and you keep your eyes open, the parts you want, will most likely come around.