How do you do your gaps and alignment?
 

ive done a lot of reading and watching of videos, but im still trying to learn the best way to gap and align panels. so far ive been adding metal with either a rod welded to the edge or just weld, and then grinding it back. i can get an even gap all the way down the panel, but im now looking at how to make the panel alignment perfect when sighted down the side.

so once i get the panel gap and alignment as close to perfect as possible (and i mean CLOSE), what do you guys do next? ive seen some who cover both panels and the gap with a layer of filler. then they block the entire seam, and finally cut the gap back out.

is this how most do it?

any better ways?

any good videos or youtube clips?

as long as you arent adding length to the door or fender or adding too much filler depth, i dont see how this could be bad.

any product better than another? rage, all metal????

Thanks, Tim

get as close as possible, then skim filler on each panel and block across the two panels

Jake,
How wide of a block do you use?

11 inch durablock, sometimes 16 inch durablock, block with 80/180. once happy with car all around i will poly prime together and block poly primer in same fashion, once happy i take apart and urethane prime for final wet sanding
jake

jake, if you laid a straight edge across, would it be perfectly flat, or are you just making it better. you can see in the top pic that i would have to add a little filler. would this be too much? would you tap the door edge out and try to make it even?

http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_1672.jpg

here are a couple of the how the panels sat 2 years ago. i spent about 8 hours cutting the back of the fender about every inch to get it to line up with the door.

http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_1673.jpg

http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...i/IMG_1674.jpg

here is a pic of the new built in desk for the kithcen. i spent about 3 months building the whole kitchen from scratch. i sprayed about 10 gallons of product between sealer, high build primer, pigmented conversion varnish and my clear topcoat cv. all had to be less than 4 mils total. wood cabinets are easier than a car, but it still gave me a ton of confidence to spray, now i just need to learn to bodywork metal.

http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/a...remodel037.jpg

Tim

still not sure why the pics wont show. this is the only site i have issues with. im using the [img][/img] format???????????

Weres Dan at?

obviously everyone has their own approach to making all panels flush with tight even gaps, and I don't mean to step on any toes, but welding a rod to edges of panels to adjust gaps is straight butchery in my book.

first step is to make sure the car is square and level with no frame damage ,if you have the gaps even, but panel edges are nut flush,try adjusting doors and fenders before using hammer ,but if there is no more adjustment,bump the edges to make panels even and flush,then use picks and whatever tools to make the surface smooth,I prefer using PDR tools to keep surface as little distorted as possible,then use shrinking disk to remove any high or low spots, once the panels are flush and gaps are even,prime with good epoxy primer,block the panels,skim coat,block again and prime with high-build primer,block again and prep for paint,

I'm not going to say it's the best method and everyone should do it that way,but that's just how I do it

Just curious why you say welding a rod to an edge is butchary. I've never done it, but when I get ready to do the body work on my 67 I'd like to make the gaps as nice as I can. Say for example the edge of an aftermarket door doesn't match the shape of the quarter perfectly, how would you fix that w/o adding metal to the edge and reshaping it?

if there is no way to adjust the panels for better fit, on aftermarket panels,that would be the way out, but in my previous post I was referring to factory sheetmetal,which at one point in it's life when it came off assembly line had somewhat of a fairly decent fit ,I know it wasn't perfect,but workable without welding,

Ok, Gotcha

What method would you use if this was'nt the case?? Just qurious...

you already quoted my answer to your question

thanks guys. you can see in that top pic (if you click on it since i cant get them to show), that the edge of the door goes in slightly. when a straight edge is laid across the gap, there is a slight void in the middle. is this something you guys would pull or bump out, or is a little void normal? are we looking to make that joint PERFECTLY flat? i ask because when i sight down most cars, there is a disruption in the reflection which to me means its not a perfect transition. i guess what im asking is, is there a reason not to make it flat? i dont think so, but id rather ask.

also, same thing for the door panel itself on my chevelle. if a 3 foot straight edge is laid on end across the door, there is a 3/16" depression in the middle. its gradual across the entire door, and is close to the same on both original doors. is this normal?

Tim

as i said, get them as best as possible then go to filler/primer. every top shop does it that way.
And no welding solid rod and forming the gap is not butchering anything, its being a craftsmen so when metal finished you cant tell what went on other then the gaps are perfect. The key is to finish both sides not just the outside.
sounds like elite has not done many old cars, the gaps are no where near what new cars are.
I try to get everything as straight as possible. most camaros doors move in multiple directions and are different where the fender meets and where the quarter meets so they can only be so straight as the panels need to do different things in different areas.

top pick, depends on what the edge of the fender does, but yes work the door edge some more, then assemble whole car so all gaps are as good as you can get hood, fenders, doors. dont do any gap work unless entire car is together. then fit doors to quarters, then doors to fender the fender to hood and hood to header if car has header.
panels should have epoxy on them once metal worked, install then block over gaps and see exactely whats going on, and either work metal more or use filler, block and watch whats going on, to make perfect.

in the 2nd and third pics, they appear(in those pics) to be ready for skimming or poly primer (3-4 coats) and block sanding to make perfect.

So adding rod to the edge is butchering... But if you have to, go head and do it:question: Stefan... Not tring to bust chops here just tring to learn,I know you know what your talking about. But if I tried all that you said and still can't get a proper gap go head and weld the rod to the edge. So go head and butcher it:question: Is'int this a contradiction. Help me understand. I have the same concerns and see alot of the top builders using this method. I also see them splitting the edge and filling the gap to tighten up the gap.Is this better? Have you done this? Butchering my car is the last thing I want to do..

yes i use that method on trunk gaps, and hood gaps, alot easier to work.


shearing thin pieces of 18ga to fill split to weld, we spot(sparingly) ,with mig, then tig weld with silicon bronze alot of time, makes metal finishing so easy.

we sheared an even 1/4 piece till it tapered we then sheared the angled piece. all was butt welded, under neath was cleaned up as well. makes for the best gap repair possible.

Thanx great visual:bow:

jake, are you actually splitting the panel and widening the gap, or are you adding a vertical piece and then filling it in?

Any monkey can weld a rod to edges of panels to fix gaps,and that is the cheater's easy way of fixing things,far from true craftsmanship ,might as well slap some bondo,why bother welding?

Uneven gaps usually means that there is something wrong.There could be old frame damage that was never repaired or half-assed,could be previously damaged body panels with distorted shape, Even if quality control wasn't as strict back then, cars would not leave factory with crooked eneven gaps,they were within certain tolerance .

It's possible the shops that do the rod welding gap adjusting mod simply don't have access to a frame machine

I don't care how old the car is,don't blame that on the age of a car, I've owned and worked on enough cars in last 20 years to know that new car can't leave a factory with gaps so bad ,that the only way to fix them is to weld rods to edges of panels and grind for perfect gap.

Butchering may be a bit too strong,but it's definitely not proper way.

as I said in the post above, there is no way cars were made that bad,to where there is no adjustment and welding a rod or cutting panel open to add more sheetmetal are the only solutions, it's the cheater's way out ,instead of finding the cause of poor fitment,they resort to quick fix,I'm sure alot of shops/guys won't and don't like what I'm saying,but it's true and it doesn't sit quite well with some of them

obviously that there are many cheap aftermarket sheetmetal parts being used on these cars and that's probably the reason why the parts just don't fit right in the first place, many cars have been in few or more fender-benders in it's 40+ years of existence,many were severly avbused,raced ,e.t.c.,putting alot of stress and causing the body/chassis to twist and buckle, those areas must be found and straightened first before trying to do the rod-welding custom gaps.

I will say, if one is looking for 1/8th inch perfect gaps,then yes, adding material to edges of panels in only few places would be the only way,it it may sound contradicting,but it would be few areas alot less prone to corrosion.Unless you're building one off custom car from scratch,those coachwork metal guys don't use rods to finalize their gaps,it takes true craftsman with alot patience.

Thanx Stefan!
I totally understand where your coming from! Like I said I'm just tring to learn.. :cheers:

lol. I guess elite is better then me, and all the top shops in the country,dse,troys,kd's,etc. he must know more then all of us on how to align panels.
I am done, if you want advice widow, pm me anytime.
btw- i guess you have not looked at many original camaros, they were far from perfect, its common knowledge that alot of them were 1/2 inch out of square depending on where measured.
jake

no, a common issue with goodmark trunks is there too small for the hole width wise. the gaps were arounf 7/16ths. we sliced the quarter 1/16th from edge, moved over till we had 3/16ths strong gap and measured, then used shear to shear filler piece that we but tig welded in using silicon bronze. metal finished to 80 grit and body worked.
goodluck

so elite, tell us. if you need a deck lid and buy a goodmark one and it has almost 1/2 gaps on each side, how do you make it fit correct? or how about a goodmark hood which commonly has good side gaps but almost always tapered gap on the front against the header panel, one side of middle is good other is wide, what is out of shape then? i guess no aftermarket panel company would make something that out of tolerance? please let us all in on how to adjust quarter panels to make the trunk lid fit.

ps- maybe i should go drag some pics off dse's website, troys website of panel aligment and welding, etc. I forgot they are monkeys as well

Jake you haven't heard anytime a gap is to wide you put the car on the frame machine and tighten her up....you know just pull the rear rails together tap it with a a body hammer, pick it with a PDR tool do some adjusting and thats that....

We weld edges, split panels, anything we have to do to make gaps perfect as long as the panel isnt warped and its metal finished there is no way to tell one way from the other.....

there is NO car that camed from the factory I have ever seen with 3/16 gaps as most of the new OE's have and im gonna say the car with the metal finshed welded gaps blows the car with the metal massaged (non-butchered) technique away panel fit wise...

somebody got their panties in a wad? stop buying poor fitting parts and most of your fitting problems will go away.

just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it right.

I'll say it again, any monkey can weld rods to tighten up gaps,but it takes a real craftsman to line and massage panels for perfect fit,

read my previous posts CLOSER and maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from:rolleyes:

I am all good buddy. it obvious you have never done a first gen camaro or old (pre 73) car period. Guess I should just go to gm to buy my deck lids and hoods from now on.
btw- it takes a real metal man to take what oem built and make it better,ie adding metal, blocking over panel gaps etc.

I think you and your 280 posts are out numbered here unfortunalty..... that or you're the only craftsmen out of all the car builders I know... maybe you should have your own tv show... all hail king of the pdr tool panel fit man:bow:

FYI, I actually owned a few pre 73 cars,few of them were 64 Impala SS,71 AMC AMX Javelin,both were original cars and all fenders,doors,e.t.c. were fitting nice, with nice gaps, I have unrestored 71 Cuda with pretty good fitting panels,doors open and shut like on a late model import. Hood hinges need some oil ,but for a car that sat for few years,it's no biggie.

if you need good fitting parts, let me know, I can get you a good deal on AMD metal:thumbsup:

I wasn't going to chime in but this thread is going south fast.

These cars with or without aftermarket parts do not fit like a Lexus, the tolorences are not +/- 1mm, more like +/- 1/2"
With most of these cars the parts are from several cars put together to make one good one.
Now take in the fact that these cars are made at different factories, different suppliers, different workers, your gaps and panels will be comprimissed.

I have worked on one or two cars in my time....lol and have yet to find a car that did not need the gaps fixed.
Now once you have fixed any damage IE: frame, body damage and you have the car on a level ground with the supension in, and the motor in, the car with weight added to the car you can set the panels. First adjust with the factory adjustments (sloted holes in the parts, these old cars have these, not like the new cars) sometimes you even need to make these slots a bit bigger. Once there is no more adjustment left now what ??? Get out your hammer and dollies and massage the sheet metal into place, and if necessary cut the jams, door edges and weld them so that they are straight.
Shape, weld, grind, ect over and over till the gaps are what you want.
Prime, fill, sand, fill, sand some more till the panel is right.

If there was a way to make all these panels fit with out these steps I would love to learn how. Go out side and look at your brand new car and tell me if all of those gaps are right. I can tell you they are not. If you see those gaps as perfect then I guess we have a different level of perfect.

Elite why don't you tell us all how do you make a hood on a 50's or 60's car fit or how to fix any off these problems if you are not able to cut and weld a seem or edge.

Just my 2 cents


Aaron

LMAO! :rofl: Just because you have 1000+ posts make you a true craftsman? I have better things to do ithan throw some pointless comments/posts just to bump up the post count,Pat yourself on the back, you've done well,master! :woot:

I know I irritate some people with truth,but I don't lie

aaron, I for two would love to know how to do this without splitting panels and adding to panels.

why dont you show us all your perfect fit pre 73 car build pics. I guess your perfect is us car builders 75% fit.

I dont post much actually do a search I have been a member for quite awhile.... Now I just lurk and call BS when I see a someone running there keyboard.... typical arm chair quarter back coming on here with no real back ground or history (3 cars) you have 3 cars with nice fitting panels congrats there metal mastermind.... maybe you should pat yourself on the back....

I'm sorry, I didn't know LG was the only boards on the internet ,where post count and register date is more important than truth. Just because I have 280 posts doesn't mean I don't know jack. READ closer, I've owned dosens of cars,3 cars that come to mind ,which had good fitting panels.

I guess I'm doing everything backwards,spending time shifting panels for better fit,maybe slot a bolt hole or add a shim or two before cutting or welding and adding metal just because there is fitting issues,

Oh ,and somehow slapping bondo is far more superior than using PDR tools :rolleyes:

dozens

did anyone ever say we did not shift panels, elongate mounting holes etc? No we said get as good as possible, then be a true craftsmen and make better, by slicing, splitting etc.
guess you just want an excuse why panels are not perfect" its the way they were made"
be a craftsmen and metal work,

I'm sorry that my English is second language which I learned besides Deutsch and Russian,I can tell you more than half Americans that were born and raised in USA can't spell to save their life, but what does spelling have to do on subject at hand?

Is AMD's sheet metal that good?
I worked in a restoration shop for 6 years and never seen repo panels that good.