Toyota's " Death Pedal " autopsy
 

Here is a link to the difference between the two pedals Toyota uses. My teenage daughters drive a Toyota and I made sure they know what to do for a stuck throttle pedal.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why...r-denso-pedal/

Pedal assembly is not the issue and Toyota knows it...and has known about it for years.

Enlighten me, I can see the pedal being an issue, but what else can cause this?

I have a 07 Tundra my pedal works great.

Love my truck

I'd be willing to lay odds it's an electrical issue and not the pedal assembly,just like it wasn't the floormats like Toyota wanted you to believe.

Give it time,it'll all come out...

This is true it will come out. But I doubt its electrical, there would be many more complaints. Electrical interference, maybe..........

I'd place my money on electrical. The throttle assembly tells the pcm it's at WOT and off to the races. Every part malfunctions. IMO where Toyota dropped the ball was having a back up plan. Most manufacturers have a safety net that won't allow throttle and brake at the same time. At least not above a certain speed. I read they are updating the PCM's to do exactly that, any brake input above say 30mph automatically cut's the throttle to idle.

What kind of odds, I might take that bet.:unibrow:

The floormat excuse was weak, but this pedal flaw and explanation seems plausible? If not they are digging a pretty deep hole...


oh... looks like we may need a bookie for the betting

Ford's systems currently default to idle at any sign of a problem,not WOT like Toyota's seem to do.

The inherant flaw to all of these new cars that park themselves, check your blind spots for you and apply the brakes because you're obviously not paying attention is that they rely on a machine (ok - what should be a smart machine) and not good old fashioned driver input and output. The more computerized systems that are integrated into the design of new cars, the more frequent failures of those same systems will become. They aren't fool proof and never can be and unfortunately I think that this is just the tip of the iceburg - for Toyota and everyone else.

If this is, to some extent, a software issue (as I understand it may be with the new prius's) then is should not be a tough fix. If I understand correctly, the factory Ford drive by wire is triple redundant - something like that should be an easy to incorporate solution. If however, the answer is IF speed >30 AND brake = yes THEN throttle = idle then the issue in not software - it's a hardare bandage (and a big difference from John's Ford example of IF fault THEN idle - which seems like a logical path). I know that I for one wouldn't want to drive something that cut my throttle if I hit the brakes just because of my speed.

I don't know if the truth will ever come out on this one - it's become something else entirely in a lot of ways - but it does make you think a bit about how much control we give or are prepared to give to a computer...

And if you're driving a 2010 Toyota Prius, then you might have problems stopping according to the latest new article today. Combine the WOT problem with this latest brake problem and you could be in for one hell of a ride on a bumpy road. Not that I mind seeing a Prius totaled, I just feel bad for the drivers.

Serves 'em right for using freakin' software to control the brakes.

I understand they are starting to offer Toyota's with and w/o steering wheels since they seem useless on a car that can't start or stop...:rofl:

Electrical huh? and they are putting in shims to buy time? Whew, seems like a HUGE gamble on Toyota's part if it is an electrical issue.

Darren

He said "Death PEDAL" not "Death METAL":beavis:

I'm thinking it's more than just the gas pedal as well.
They are in big trouble either way. I do believe there are a couple of really big lawsuits against them.
Not to mention the whole other issue of the Prius having problems with it's brakes. DOUBLE WHAMMY!!!!:_paranoid

GM electronic throttle system will go to idle also, but that is if is sees a difference in pedal input vs throttle body movement. If memory serves me correct its a .3 second difference and Bam!! your at idle. I know from experience. I'm thinking toyota has the same type of fail safe, so a sticking throttle pedal will do just this. How does the computer know that its stuck and not your foot planted on the floor.

Now the way morons drive, Green light Go, means on the floor to pass the guy in front, so at the next light your one car length ahead. I can see where mashing the dam pedal can stress the plastic pedal assy and cause wear / binding with age. Electrical I highly doubt it, I'm sure they spent millions designing the electrical side of this equation.

HAL! Hal! You're not being nice Hal! ... would you please return control of the ship Hal....

I'd like to put a Prius in the back of my big black dually - and take it for a ride...

One time I was at a gas station - filling up the dually - some clown comes in driving a Prius and starts mouthing off about all the fuel he's saving -- to which I said "THANK YOU 'cause I'm going to be using all of the fuel you saved!" :woot:

Greg, you always crack me up man! :lol:

Yep, that f'ing Prius leaves a larger carbon footprint on this planet than my SUV due to the complexity of building and shipping its components in North America, Europe, and Asia. It's a dirty little secret the tree huggers won't tell you about. It's a shame they put brakes on them at all.

How rediculous is it that you need to download a patch to get the brakes working better. :lol:

Chris ---

Wait til those huggers find out that they have to buy a new battery... and what's left of the old one is about as toxic and it gets!

And this is why i will only buy GM products I have never had a problem with them. I wish that Toyota would own up to it if they did make a mistake at least that would show me they are human and care about the customer's that they put in danger. I have drove and rode in Toyota's line nice lineup but not for me. To me they felt cheap. And now i am really glad i bought GM. Ok off my soap box.

It's getting real ugly...


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Runawa...ory?id=9747342



:willy: :willy:

With all the driving that I do, I always see a Prius in the fast lane doing 80 plus mph. I really wonder how efficient they are at 80. The electric motor and gas engine have to both be running their little guts outs.

With Toyota be the darling of the media for the past few years it is refreshing to see them turn on them like everyone else.

Boy I sure do miss my good ol throttle "CABLE", man those were the days. All this to save a cable and a return spring.

plus the extra parts not needed for cruise or traction control (cost, weight, packaging), plus better control over 'torque management' for reduced warranty issues.


although this is making me rethink my want of DBW in my 67.

Isn't that the truth?:lol:

No one ever talks about the battery disposal,what a nightmare that'll be.

Im all for bring back the throttle cable.

Exactly...... Leave it to Top Gear to clear the air.

Hey guys, I have been following this very close and also got my hands on both the denso and a CTS pedal. I can confirm what was posted in that first link, however there is a twist.

The CTS pedal I took from a 2008 Camry had a WHITE plastic on the tip of the two teeth that fit into the groove.

Also - the Toyota uses MAGNETS in both pedals to send the signal to the PCM for throttle input.

The CTS uses a pair of banna shaped magnets fixed to the top of the lever. The sensor sits inbetween them. As you press the throttle the magnetic field increases. The Denso pedal does the same thing, but has the magnets fixed in the pivot of the center of the pedal.

Some folks have experimented with putting EMI signals through the cars and were able to raise the RPM as if they were pushing the pedal.

As far as I know, Toyota is the only one using the magnets. GM at least uses a contact sensor (just like the TPS, etc).

Now, for giggles and grins I put the CTS pedal in hot water for an extended amount of time trying to encourage swelling and moisture collection on the drag assembly. Guess what? No drag - no snag, no sticking.

My money is on there being a known problem where the sensor picks up EMI and translates that into throttle request causing the vehicle to race.

Finally - I can say for a fact that if you pump the brake on the 2.4 four banger Camry while holding the throttle down, then try to hold it down...all the vacuum is depleted and the vehicle will overpower the brakes. I'm talking standing on the pedal as hard as you can to the point of bending the seat and it will at first slow, then little by little overpower them and begin to accelerate.

IF you simply hammer the brake ONE TIME and hold it while going wide open, the car will stop. Problem is, in a panic most drivers would end up pumping the pedal and losing all the vacuum assist prior to crashing.

Here is a picture of the magnet and sensor.

Here you can see the white tip on the assembly.

The whole "sticking pedal assembly" arguement just does not make sense. There has to be more to it - either in the sensor, the software, or with EMI.

I mean really... if the pedal sticks due to friction (a) your RPMs won't increase to WOT - it would simply stick at part throttle where you were at and (b) you could lift the pedal up and unstick it (at least in principal). And when you did crash (assuming you did) the pedal would be stuck in the position it was in and be pretty easy to identify, document, and show the world.

John, do you know more about this? My dad has an '05 Mustang that has in intermittent engine revving problem. It is an auto and when stopped at a light in drive, it has revved up to 2500 rpms on its own, and wanted to go, despite having a foot on the brake. The Ford dealership refuses to look at the idle air control valve, or anything else for that matter, but just recently hooked up a data logging device to the OBDII port.

Matt

This does look like a good candidate for emi. How does the Denso differ in the magnetic pickup, would you say its less susceptable to emi?

Different shaped sensor - but works the same way (all magnets - in the pedal and throttle body).

I don't know Matt,but I can ask service for ya.:yes:

I don't believe for a minute the pedal is the main issue here,same as I didn't believe the floormat cover up that preceeded it.

I hear ya...but I have seen first hand how the All Weather mat can absolutely jam the pedal. The sad thing is, many of the complaints are coming from people with no mats in the car at all.

I did see one this week that was a fatality. The really sad thing, in a 2009 Camry the owner had the stock carpet and a aftermarket mat stacked on top.

magnetic sensor - Denso
 

Here is a cell phone pic of a Denso.

In this picture, see the green assembly on the left. In the center there is a square opening. There are a pair of magnets embedded in the square. Look at the assembly on the right. The silver round part in the middle is the sensor. As the pedal is pressed the magnets rotate around the sensor. It is a bit off-set so that the magnetic field can increase on the sensor as the pedal is pushed.

I have noted the magnets appear to be stronger in the Denso.

If it is a sensor issue, what is the purpose of installing the metal shim?

Darren