The Cormaro......
 

I have been struggling with an ACCEL DFI system for a long long time and have finally made it over the hump, and it will rev up like it is supposed to.

ACCEL finally stepped up to the plate last December and delivered on the promise to make it right. I can finally say good things about them after today.

I almost gave up more than once and looking back I still wonder how I did it.

I am going to start posting more here and if I get off my butt with my camera I hope to get things together to get a feature going.

For those who know everything from Pro-Touring that has gone on it's been a long time, but for those who keep themselves here I hope you enjoy what is to come.

Jim --

I was an "early" adopter of the Accel system.... and had NOTHING BUT trouble with their stuff --- failed dual sync distributors -- the WORST tech help in the entire world... and a whole bunch of IDIOTS recommended as "trained" Accel tuners...

They have upgraded their system (I own two of their Gen 7 ECMS - ONE as a back up for when the other POS fails)... I've rewired the DUAL SYNC to get rid of their too stiff / too thin connections... and found a great tuner in Bob Ream (I had to tow to Phoenix to get 'er done right!)... at Imagine Injection.

I wil say - once it's right - it works like a champ. In fact - just today - I fired off the Nomad without touching the gas pedal - and it's been sitting for 3 months or so (on a battery tender)... and just purred. So would I do it all again -- OH HELL YEAH... but next time -- I'll give FAST my business.

Jim glad to hear its finnally straightened out. Now all you need is some 70 degree weather to drive it in. lol

I'll take 45 degrees and clear roads as soon as it gets here. I was driving up until Dec. 2nd and 38 degrees when I went for the tune at Schwartz Performance. The car creates enough heat and is air tight enough to be comfortable in a good coat. All with no heater and the vent windows can keep the frost off with no problem as I learned 30 years ago when the heater went out in the middle of winter in my other 67.

I'm still working on a defroster setup that will solve my clear windshield problem. I just don't want it to weigh anything which is the problem.

70 degrees would be a day to skip off work and go looking for everyone I can to go for a ride. I don't know too many friends that like the colder ride,lol.

Thanks for the encouragement, it just snowed another 8" and is drifting everywhere.

I am looking to get a wide band o2 setup to put on and was wondering if what you think is the best one that will work for the $$$$ from your experience or research?

Jim,

The NGK / AFX is the most accurate when used with the upgraded NTK sensor.

Here is a link to one: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/582

Jim that snow is headed my way now, but I don't have the car so its not too bad. I'll just stay in the house nice and warm.

Thanks Matt, I like the accuracy of that unit and almost bought it. I called Jeff Jasiek and asked about it and he too likes the NTK for what it can do but he told me that the accel won't interface with it and I could only use it as a tuning tool and the accel unti I found for the same price today ( other prices were from 500 to 700)and it will interface and control the DFI unit.

I am finding that I will be able to get the DFI to do what I want if I have the wideband. Learning to tune is something that I had envisioned to do from the start.

You have a package coming and it should be there by sat.


Thanks for the research. Look forward to getting together soon!

I got my wideband today, it got here in 2 days instead of the 4-7 they said.

Now I have to get it in this weekend. I was playing around with the tune last night before I went to bed and couldn't fire it up until this afternoon. It is a bit better once it gets warmed up. I basically was playing around with the 3d ve table to get it more blended.

I am looking forward to being able to see the actual A/F ratio instead of the hego voltage.

I hope the install goes well.

Hope it does too Jim!!

Remember that you have toggle settings for the O2 sensors...

There is also a "range" of fuel add and subtract that you can set...

Those stiff wires coming out the dual sync have caused me concern as well. What did you use to replace them? Was desoldering on the PCB in the dist a problem?

I want to get rid of those wires and the rube goldberg adapter harness.

Thanks.

Jim --

You need a "desoldering" sucker... Seriously -- it is a small manual spring loaded tool with a sucking action... you "load" the slide lock - heat the solder and flip the slide lock with gives a quick "slurp" of vacuum... and out the solder comes.

You could also take this to a high tech automotive (efi) place and they would probably replace those poopie stiff wires...

The Rube Goldberg "ends" are GM WEATHERPACK and are purposely "flipped" so you can't accidently plug the CAM signal into the wrong input to the EFI...

I made my leads about 4" longer -- so I could actually plug them in BEFORE stabbing the distributor... made life much easier.

Thanks for the info!

Looks like I need one of those solder suckers.

Seems to me that if the distributor had the 8 pin connector to match the MWH ignition connector there would be no chance of swapping them and that would be 2 less connectors floating around.

Did you use a shielded cable?

Yes --- and since the signal is "weak" you should used shielded -- just of a higher quality than these units were born with!

I agree -- an 8 pin single connection would be handy. Not sure why they did it this way. I never researched it... I just fixed the poor wiring.

Solder sucker (desoldering tools) are available almost anywhere they sell electronic supplies - soldering irons etc.... but not at Home Depot etc... you've got to get a little more upscale than that!!

A quick search for "desoldering tool" on Amazon had a couple of pages of 'em - from $5 versions to a couple hundred dollar "desoldering STATION" -- now that is fancy! You could go into the business!! :rofl:

I think the main reason for the 2 plugs was to keep the possiblity of any interferance bewteen the 2 signals. Putting the shielded wires in the same connector places them closer than might be wanted,considering the distance of most connectors at the terminal ends is not very far and there is no shielding at the very end where it connects to the terminal. All you would have to do is put them next to each other and you have trouble brewing. Plus if the guy putting the harness together has 2 plugs he has less of a chance to get them in the wrong holes. I know they had problems with that with 2 plugs !!!!

The way the harness was built to begin with had a lot to be desired. i actually pulled the loom apart and pulled back all of the nitrous and other stuff that went to the engine bay and came back in for no other reason than to make it easy if you put the ecu in thengine bay or had a front mount battery. I have half the amount of wires going thru my fire wall and only one hole instead of the two grommets they provided. I pulled all of the connectors thru and connected up what was needed and then pulled the excess back into the car. This made it really tidy under the hood.

Now I have to find room for more with the new wideband but it to is going inside the car to keep most of the wires out of the engine bay.

I just wish they would stop putting the connectors on the ends so you wouldn't have to frill as big of a hole and a small grommet would suffice. I will probably pull them out of the connector and do it that way anyway. The other thing that was messed up on my gen7 harness was that the wires for the cam and crank + - wires were in backwards to start with.

When I am done it looks nice but it is a lot of work. The tuner that cam to help me the first time couldn't believe how much better it looked and was confused when I was disconnecting the the EST wire from inside and that it never went thru the firewall. It goes right straight to the 6A box to the ecu inside and I have a bullet connector right at the fuse panel labeled and easy to get to.

Do I have to hook up the wires for the speed control to get the wideband to work correctly or can I just leave them alone and I just won't have the speedometer part of the screen work? What the heck does speed have to do with the A/F ratios anyway? Seemed kind of wierd to me to all of a sudden have as many gauges in the accel programs as I have on my dash?

Jim --- Going from pure memory here -- you only need the speed signal (from the trans) if you were going to OPERATE the torque convertor lock up from the ECM. There is a "program" that is throttle and percentage based etc. Again - just going from memory - too lazy to go out to the shed and get that laptop that has all the info on it for Gen 7 (Windows laptop AKA DOOR STOP --- I use Apple for my daily fun).

I agree TOTALLY on the "why terminate the ends" -- but they try to make this stuff idiot proof - and in so doing - just make more work for those that are perfectly happy "hot rodding" their system. I understand it - but I don't have to like it.

I have a "set" of "pushy tools" (my name for them) that are used in the various new style connections - in order to "release" the pins from the connections - maintaining the pin on the wire.... I also have a wide variety of "stock" to re-terminate this stuff (I LOVE GM Weatherpack stuff!)... the problem with these guys - is they don't LABEL their looms.... you'd think it would be so easy for them to actually label each run with what it is... but NO..... so it's easy to get them a "pin out" or mixed up.... then you have a REAL MESS on your hands going over every single wire and it's location etc.... That makes my head spin just thinking of that nightmare!

SPEARTECH makes a nice wire harness for the LS computers (I have one for the '55 I'm doing)... very nice stuff - super simple - nothing extra if you don't want it.... Not sure they make - or would make up - a harness for "the other guys" stuff such as FAST or ACCEL.

Now I understand their reasoning with the speedometer. When you have a stick who cares ,right!!! Lock up in every gear !!!!

I am still trying to find the best place to put another box. I have 3 places to put it it and each one has its advantages and its drawbacks but that's packaging for ya.

The rest of the install seems fairly straight forward. The instructions as usual suck the big one. That's what friends and tuners are for,lol.

I fortunately have waited to do some things in the interior that will have to be removed agian to do the install so I can do both at the same time fortunately. I'll be glad when the carpet goes down because that is the last step before it is really show time for the people who care about carpet. I can bet Ron Schwarz would never care,:rofl:

I am looking forward to going to Road America on the 17th and 18th and will be there with the Cormaro even if it is in limp mode,lol. Snow excepted. Please no SNOW.

:cheers:

Jim,
I'm so glad to see you posting about tuning instead of about welding! :thumbsup:

Just an FYI. The One Lap Camaro has the MEFI4B system, Wideband was added, but even though the ECM can use the signal you have to add another MFR's add on box same as you are doing to run the heater and produce a signal the ECM can read.

Anyway, we were having terrible trouble with the TPS signal when trying to dyno tune the system, even with engine stopped, key on, the TPS voltage was jumping around and the dyno operator said he couldn't tune it that way.

What we found was the Wideband controller was grounded to the same point as the ECM and it was causing the ECM ground voltage to be biased up and down like crazy.

I would try and ground your wideband somewhere else just in case.
David

Thanks for the tip. I have already had enough troubles with the system and just when I get it going I surely don't need to go right back into more problems.

It's more fun to tune than to weld too. The sound of a running car has been a long time coming. I have to weld in the new O2 bung though ,so there we go back to welding,lol Fortunately I am replacing my collector reducers for better flow and gasket seal so I can do both jobs at once.

Are you coming to the Motorstate Challenge again this year? The ride in Penny was GREAT FUN and it is always nice to talk about everything with you.

On the DFI wideband controller, if you have the new one that uses the NGK sensors (looks like a mini-me of the Gen 7) the only reason to use the speed sensor input is if you want a speed dependent control or for the data-logging functions.

Thanks for that info.I just have the single Bosch sensor to start with.

I have my racepak for data logging and would probably never use the data logging from the Accel, maybe when I get down the road I might change my mind but after it gets tuned I don't see me hooking a laptop to it unless I hit the drag strip and mess with a tune for that.

I am feeling like I am back at school with all of the programming I am learning.
It makes my head spin when I go too fast trying to learn it all. Setting stuff up gets confusing enough, especially when things are going wrong. I have learned a lot from things going wrong but man it gets old quick.

I was tuning a bit today and it was the first time I put the pedal to the floor quickly and it reved up to 6 k so fast I couldn't get my foot back up before it hit the rev limiter from what I could tell. It sounded good and strong. I am ready to get out and put the load on it ASAP.:drive:

:cheers:

I think the only one against you now is Mother Nature. I'm so sick of snow already! I know you feel the same.

I'm planning on going to Motor State, but this year is going to be pretty busy, hope I can keep up! :thumbsup:

I kept looking at the harness from Accel and looking at the firewall and seeing where and what I want to go thru for wiring and finally decided to call O'Reily's and see if they had some weatherpac terminal removing tools available. Low and behold they told me they could have them for me tomorrow
morning for just $16 and it is the complete set needed to to all of the types of connectors. I just couldn't see fighting with them to do the job since I am messing with an important part of the system and want to save putting another hole in the firewall.

If it all works out I will be able to pull the old hego wire back in the cabin and at the same time pull the new eugo wire in with them making all of the connectors inside the car. It will be a bit harder to change out the O2 sensor later if needed but I will have the tool to do it with or I can push the uego wires back out where the hego wires went thru and put the connector back outside. Decisions decisions.

Why Accel didn't just make it so there was a plug for the wideband on the main harness to begin with is still a mystery to me, they had a plug for damn near everything else I would never use.

With the way the engine wants to run I think I am going to be glad I spent the money for the widebands ability to have better control. It seems to really like 12.5 to 13 a/f to get going really crisp according to the tables.

I keep saving my tunes everytime I mess with it so when I get out on the road I can pull over and put one in and see how it runs compared to the other and hopefully I can mix the best areas together and move along faster with it once we put it under load.

The one thing that gets me is that the idle will be spot on to the idle settings in idle program one minute and then without doing anything and the temp staying the same rpm will go down? I keep thinking it could be injector decay because of voltage but it happens above 13 volts which I thought injector decay didn't start until it got below 12.5 volts. I may need to change my alternator crank pulley to increase my voltage at 900 to 1000 rpm idle to the 14.1 I get at 1200 rpm. It is around 13 volts at 1000 rpm. anyone else ever have this happen? Or will it more than likely just be I need to get a better idle tune to get it to stabilize?

I can only hope it is easier to know with the wideband installed?

I have my old 9 pin serial port/XP Pro laptop up and working again and it likes the serial port and it also works with the usb. The wideband will have to go into one and the ecu in the other to tune it so I hope it can keep up.
:cheers:

If you are going to be driving Penny I think you will have no trouble keeping up:lol:

See you there :cheers:

Jim --


It's not the A/F ratio that needs the tuning on the Accel Gen 7 --- you set the AF for what you want (or think) the motor needs (to get started tunning) and then you set the VE to get the ACTUAL A/F to match the desired A/F you set at that particular cell....

Now -- I can tell you that there are guys on here that REALLY know this stuff - so I'm just trying to throw you a bone here... "food for thought" really...

So lets say it's idling - at 750 rpms - and you want the AF to be 14.1 at idle...

You find the cell where it's idling - (or maybe it's hunting in 4 cells) - select those 4 cells - put in your 14.1 AF -- then go to the VE table and select those same 4 cells and start tunning those VE's until the actual and desired MATCH.

Now -- if the motor is too lean at 14.1 - just change the AF number to 13.5 or whatever - until the motor "Likes" the AF -- but the VE's won't change much regardless of the AF number selected. Of course you can find the AF the motor likes - get that going right - and then come back and 'tweak' the VE's - bringing them in so she'll idle (Watch your Map for best "vacuum" - no different than a carb!) and your Wide Band O2 has hardly any "work" to do... You really do not want the O2 to do much --- it's there for when it's needed -- but adding or subtracting 5% or LESS would be correct... At idle -- it shouldn't be adding or subtracting ANYTHING if the VE's are right.

Now -- I may be telling you stuff you already know... and if that's the case - then just skip over my posts... :rofl:

When I say the motor "likes" the AF -- and the VE's are right or very close - The RPMS and the Vacuum should both "INCREASE" (at idle) just like tuning a carb - you set your idle mixture using your tach and vacuum gauge - you know you have 'em right when you achieve the highest RPMs and highest vacuum reading...

So watch those two when you're "tuning" the AF...

No load idle - should be able to get fairly 'lean' on the AF... but I don't know what motor you're running or cam etc... so the numbers I'm throwing out are just that - numbers.

Thanks Greg, all explantions are helpful right now. The instructions don't really help much from accel and when I do things I know are supposed to be right and when they don't do what I think they would I get to guessing what is wrong with what I am doing. Everyone has given me just a bit more understanding with different info. The engine has a very hot cam in it and the vacuum is never going to be real high. Without the Rhoads X lifters it would be a disaster for the street. It has seemed to really accept a lot of lash with them and I may go to .040 from the .035 they are at now and see if it helps more? It really got a lot better when I went from .030 to .035 so maybe the extra .005 will do better yet. The instruction do say I could push .050 but that seems like a lot to go.

Thanks again I hope to get the wiring done on the wideband this weekend.I am certain that with the instructions they give it will be the usual fun.

Step 1 of the wideband install is finally done. The wires are thru the firewall and the main plug is all together. It wasn't too bad to do, the pins came right out and the hole only had to be 1/2" so it is nice and clean looking.

Step2 is to take apart the center gauge panel and hook up all the wires inside.

I am hoping the voltage output from the wideband will work with my USM module without any adapter to my racepak. It would really be nice to be able to read a/f ratios with it.I will be talking to Donny at racepak on monday or tuesday.

So far so good and if it all goes good it will be working by wed or thurs.

:cheers:

The wideband is in and the car is back up and running.

It all went rather well and the amount of data recording and other controls in the Accel wideband will compliment the Racepak.

I have the program from Rob in and have run it long enough to run out of gas :rofl:

The engine really seems to want a lot of timing and 13.5 a/f seems to be as lean as it can go at throttle of any kind.

It's like starting over almost with the wideband. I can at least get some control over how rich it will be running at all times.

The snow is melting fast and it is going to rain soon they say instead of snow. Some front inner fenders and I will drive it anywhere.

The amount of things on the list to be done before it is ready for a track is getting smaller.

I got my helmet the other day and my fire extinguisher too. I have to get roll bar padding and think of what else is needed for safety.

It won't be long and the call to the insurance will be happening:thumbsup:

Why would you want it that lean?

I think he's talking about IDLE...

And that's not a lean idle... But the trick is to find what the motor wants...

Yes it is at idle and it seems the VE table likes it a bit on the rich side to keep it going.

Finding what this motor wants is going to take a bit with the variable duration lifters.

It would be good to have it idle at around 14.2 a/f if it will like it from a standstill. I am getting better at finding what is working best.

I have to fill up the tank and try a few more programs and get some notes to give to Rob and then getting something that is even closer will come sooner.

I will be itching to drive it by the end of the week, I can feel it it.

The car started to run like crap while trying to tune it friday and I realized that the plugs were doing the same thing they did another time it started to run that way. 10:1 a/f ratio was hit several times and they were fouled black.

I also took the time to finally replace the rocker studs with longer ones that were needed to be on the safe side. I set the lash up to .040 from .035 to see if I can pickup a bit more vacuum and a better idle. The Rhoads X lifters can go as much as .050 with the cam I have so we will see if it helps.

I am calling it a day and will try to start it tommorow sometime.

With the weather being as nice as it has been it will be tough not to be tempted to get it out and drive. I still need inner fenders to keep all the road crap from getting everywhere so I keep telling myself to not get carried away.

Tuning it without putting it under a load is not doing me any good results with the timing and the VE table definately is greatly effected by it. I have to get my other stuff done and save the gas for the street.

The snow slid off the hood of the truck today and that is a good sign, it was there from the first snow and I am glad to see it go. winter has been way too long for me this year with the car so close to being a good runner.

:cheers:

Jim -- Watch out for those big fat A/F's -- You can destroy the oil rings in a heartbeat - and one you've managed to wash down the cylinders and those oil rings go dry - they're never coming back.... and you'll end up with an "oil eater".

When I saw it go there it wasn't for long, it was during a correction from the computer to make up for a VE table change. I am learning to make much smaller changes in the tables now that I have a better idea of what it wants. To start out with, the table I was working from was not very close. the new program from Rob at FFI is much closer and has the top and bottom better suited I think. Not having the engine under a load and tuning is not helping any at all. I need to get it out and drive it to do it right.

I am going to stay away from richer settings to compensate for the wrong timing. With the Rhoads lifters and it being variable ,the timing and VE table is going to be different going thru changes. The engine would actually wake right up and go when the lifters pumped up and it was rich.

Thanks for the input. I can use all the help I can get learning how to program but once I get used to what changes do what I will be able to manipulate it with confidence and hopefully the correct results.

Back up and running again and the extra .010 on the lash made an even bigger gain in vaccum. The KPA is now down around 60 kpa at idle without being highly timed and lean at least from what I can tell so far. I may go even more on the lash until I reach the .050 limit. I think I might call Rhoads and hear what they think and have experienced. It sure likes it the more I add and you can't hear them tick yet, they have never ticked at all so far. my other engine with the normal Rhoads lifters ticked a bit. This new design seems to work well.

The weather is as warm now as it was when I last drove it so as soon as the rain gets the salt off the roads I am going to take it out and drive it.

I am on a mission to find the material to make my inner front fender wells so I keep it all clean. Something temporary may turn into permanent, who knows? I have a few ideas, we'll see what the tape measure says about them?

I can hardly wait to feel the tires moving faster than the road with some hard acceleration. It was fun in damn near limp mode last fall it will have to be a blast with some power and rpm.

Road America here we come !!!!

I have been trying to get the tune to get some acceleration without popping and have run the acceleration tables all the way up to try and get it to work, the ve table keeps wanting to like things one way on the way up from idle and another way on the way down. The Rhoads lifters are playing havoc with the timing to adjust the idle speed thru the ecu and the list goes on. I get one thing to work better and and others get worse.

I am learning more and more everyday about tuning and find I am practicing on the worst case scenario of an engine. The cam is just too radical and has no low end to work with even with the rhoads lifters to help.The good side of all this is I am learning a lot about tuning.

I have ordered up a cam from Comp Cams, I went with one the XFI flat tappet cams that has good midrange and excellent top end. These are made for fuel injection and should eliminate the problem caused by the stock car cam.

Any other problem I might still have should show up when taking it all apart. A couple of the guys at the Hotrod Shop think I may have a cam lobe or 2 going flat. When doing the lash tuesday again to check I couldn't see any signs of it and the oil when I changed it didn't have particals in it but that doesn't mean it isn't starting to happen.

I am getting thoughts of putting on my 2.02 heads that are polished ,ported and cc'd but they could use a little freshening up and time and $$ is still the evil demon here like always. So much to do and I just want to get it running good before I finish up other things.

What's a guy to do sometimes?

When you have the intake manifold off - make sure you do a forensic tear down -- look at the gasket area for any signs of a leak... pulling oil or oil vapors into the intake can reek havoc on the O2 sensor...

Also - make sure you're valve spring rates match your cam... overlook this at your own peril (or the cams peril...)

I assume you're using a dual sync distributor? Ingition timing controlled by the ECM...

If you're using Accel Gen 7 ECM - have you tried using the VE table estimator function? Also - if your motor is "similar" to many motors built these days - there are tables / tunes - already loaded with the software - have you looked at any of them - and tried any? They're a good way to get a "base" tune - as far as AF ratio and timing etc and then just tweak the VE's where they may be needed.