DSE vs TCI vs Art Morrison
 

At the moment ive been looking at front clips and rear suspension options for my 70 nova. DSE and Morrison make some amazing looking stuff and have the performance and following to back them. So my question is how good is the TCI stuff? the old adage says "you get what you pay for" and the TCI clip is about 2-2.5k cheaper than the DSE and Morrison stuff. Is this adage pretty applicable to the TCI stuff?


thanks guys,

jeff

TCI performed really well in the super chevy handling test. I believe it won the autocross, but they did say it rode harder than the others also.

Don't forget Speedtech. Great guys, products and prices. :cheers:

They also did great in this test.

Bro, that old agade is very much alive today as it was yesterday. You do get what you pay for. That's part of the reason I have twice as much more money in my Chevelle as I should, because I took cheaper routes the first time only to have and go and redo it a second time. Now, as far as the TCI stuff winning the autocross, it would have to depend on more variables than the product itself, such as skill of the driver, etc. But the part alone may be inferior to DSE or ART Morrison. :thumbsup: Just my opinion since you asked.

Oh without a doubt. kinda forgot to mention them as well. they are up there with the DSE and Morrison stuff for sure both quality and price wise. would love to be able to afford any of the three but being 22 years old, my budget is super limited. just trying to see if its worth it for me to wait and save up more 2500 extra dollars for one of these "big three" subframes or just go with the TCI and call it a day or to modify the stock subframe. Any input on the best mods for teh stock front would be greatly appreciated too. How bout the TCI 4 link, anyone have any input on it. for about 1200 bucks doesnt seem like too bad a deal. or should i stick with maybe say hotchkis leafs or teh DSE mini tub kit for 1300


Exactly what im asking for. Love to hear the opinions of you guys. makes my decisions easier and more educated. keep the opinions, praise and criticisms coming

I have no experience with any of these subframes, I'm modifying a stock one. Cost wise it's probably the cheapest solution even when you go for expensive parts. AME for example sells the bare frame for like 3k, and I will have less than that with AFX spindles, new upper/lower arms, springs, shocks, sway bar, and steering.

The aftermarket ones may weigh slightly less but I doubt there will be much difference in the performance.

I have this conversation all day everyday. We sell more subframes then anyone (All brands combined), selling Art Morrison, Chris Alston, DSE, Speedtech. We also sell a lot of different products to modify a stock subframe.

There are a 100 comments but I will hit on some bullet points on a couple things mentioned so far.

The numbers say the AME and DSE are the class of the field and the performance proves that. Neither came to the shootout so there is no comparison against the cars that did show. Yes they are the most money, yes, for a all out (I'm gonna push it 100%, I have to win!) project they are the choice. Both of these are equally fantastic, both handle fantastic and ride awesome to, but they are not required for a cool Pro Touring ride.

Yes the TCI did well in the autocross. But there is much more to ultimate handling then just autocross times. Ride is extremely important. Ever ride a go kart? Go Karts handle...........they don't ride very good. I understand the TCI car did not do very well in the ride category. And ride is what you do 99% of the time. So is ultimate handling so important we throw ride away? We can do that with a stock subframe.

The OP did not ask about Speedtech but the name was thrown in. According to the numbers, the Speedtech frame should not be able to compete with the AME and DSE frame, but somehow they were able to win the autocross....................... on 19s and 20s to boot! I installed the very first Speedtech frame in EmptyNest and I can tell you the Speedtech subframe is a no joke piece.

I do not sell any of cheapo subframe solutions. Change for the sake of change subframes as I call them. No one mentioned a modded factory subframe, but if it were me, and if I was on a budget, and could not fund a $4800 to $6700 Subframe. I would rather mod a stock subframe with killer parts. Right at $2500 to $3000 will put some really good parts on the stock subframe, in conjunction with some very minor mods that are free, and will make the competitive with the big boys.

Don't think so? Here is a interesting tid bit. RTTHs 2009, Top 5 cars. Not in order. Badd Penny, possibly the second most sorted Camaro on the planet with C6 front and 3 link rear should be the world beater and is one serious toy. DSE 2nd gen Camaro, probably the most sorted Camaro on the planet, Brian Finchs 2nd gen DSE clone car, Air Ride Velocity, Running stock subframe and Air Ride lead most of the day, and ready for this.........Jason Hubers stock subframe leaf spring car! The difference in times on a 35 second track was less then 1 second, the Air Ride car, Stock subframe and Air Ride, was within 100ths of the winner in the Top 5 shootout!

Driver, no sir, every one of these guys are awesome drivers. So I believe the cars all got into the top 5 based on the cars merits, not drivers merit.


We build a ton of cars in our shop. On any given day there will be cars getting mild Hotchkis TVS kits and 12.2" brakes, 17" wheels, 383 SBC, and right beside it a no expense all DSE, 14" Stoptech braked, Forge wheeled, built LS7, or a Full AME suspended, 14" Wilwood, Forgeline 18s, 540 700HP monster!! All at the same time. So I get to test drive, shake down, beat on, everything from mild to wild. I get to use what I sell, and get real feedback right in the seat of my pants!

So what am I saying? You do not have a AME / DSE budget, you don't need it! Unless you need that last 1/2 to 3/4 of a second! And then you have to be willing to push the car hard enough and be capable of pushing the car hard enough to take advantage of all that awesomeness.

I have a friend with a 2200HP Pro Street car...............the car is to pretty, he is nowhere near capable, and unwilling to use all the power. But he had the money to build it so he did.

You don't have the money? You don't need it. Don't blow your budget this early in the project, there are plenty of little things that are going to sneak up and break your budget for you.

What do you plan on doing with the car?

I have to agree with alot of what Frank said, only because it makes sense. I will focus on his last statement though. You really will have added expenses popping up that will add up. The little things can eat up hundred dollar bills fast.

And 509Chevelle's comments on moving one step forward to just go two backward. I have been in that situation. Built up a system just to remove it all and start over because of improper planning on my part. Over anxious or not educated to begin with. At least you are trying to educate yourself ahead of time. Smart move.

And you have realcoray making some great points that were also talked about. Use the money to modify but not replace the existing framework. You will get the most bang for your buck going that route. But some guys want a remove and replace for a few reasons. One that I see is not really knowing what to do. And thats an honest reason. Thats why the after market makes complete systems. It takes any guess work out for the guy that can figure it all out but looks at it as being the same outcome just to have a company work it all out with components that are proven to work together.

Funny thing about our hobby, and its a hobby for me. Some folks are in it for the business. But for a hobby guy like myself there are several levels of engagement. Some like to ship the car off to have it modified. Some will look to replace some components on an existing frame. Some want to build their own frame and choose the parts they want. Others will look for a system to incorporate into their car. Thats whats great about working on cars. You can modify the car with any of the above approaches. Usually money and skills play a part in the decisions. But not always. There are other needs that will influence the direction a guy takes.

For me? If I was to start up a new project. And money isnt pouring out of my trees and I do have the ability to weld up a frame. I would buy from speedtech. They look to still be a grassroots company that builds some IMO very strong sub-frames. Some of the other companies have gotten top heavy with the overhead. So you will pay for that overhead. And some of the companies still have the large overhead (even larger) and they sell systems that are less expensive but the amount of steel is lacking. They need to trim the cost of the final product so it is shaved from somewhere, prolly actual raw materials.

Im not saying the frame with the most metal is better. But I will say the company that you are looking at cant provide the same amount of raw materials in their sub-frame that speedtech will give you. And speedtech doesn't just overbuild for lack of engineering. They place structural members where they are needed and dont have to worry about the added cost due to a lower overhead. The translation. You get more for YOUR money. JR

If I started a new project tomorrow, DSE subframe would be #1 on the list. It's just that good. The front steer rack gives you a ton of room for big headers and a factory z bar. The C6 spindles allow stock brakes. The splined sway bar is an easy change and not that expensive. My car with the DSE sub and G Bar rides as good as my 08 550i 95% of the time. It handles waaaaaaaaay better. Last time I autocrossed I left the front rebound and compressioin setting in street trim. Best the car ever felt. I do stiffen up the aise end.

One a budget I'd call up the boys at speedtech and buy a set of their spindles, control arms, tie rod sleeves, body bushings, and call it a day.:thumbsup:

Frank i have a Q
So if we get the same car, same power output ,same rear ends, same weight, Gearbox, etc everything identical except 1 has AM or DSE front sub and one has the OESub thats been modified and 1 Driver there will be only a second in it?
On a track like Optima Inv..

I ended up buying the DSE frame for a few reasons.
1) It allows a wider front tire
2) It comes with power rack&pinion
3) Corvette spindles so i could run stock c6 brakes saves money
4) An Ls engine bolts right in which also saves money
5) It has a splined sway bar. It just makes more sense than the stock one.
6) It is supposed to ride nicer than a modded stock frame.
7) Have you ever seen it in bare metal????? :hail: :hail:
8) I have seen their cars run, the performance has been proven to me, over and over.
9) I was able to talk to Kyle and Stacy. Talking to them in person gave me huge amounts of confidence in their product. I knew why they did 'that', and why 'this' didn't work.
10) I was able to go to their shop, and talk to the people who build the parts.
11) People on this forum say from experience, build it right the first time. It's much cheaper.

When it came down to the end, I was torn between ridetech and DSE. Those were the companies that i was able to talk to in person at the shows. I'm not saying I bought from them because they are the best handling cars, but because I had confidence in their product and knew the reason behind design. I also knew that they would help me if something went wrong and they could because every person that was there knew more about suspension than I ever will.
:lateral:

TCI has been building street rod stuff for a long time and their market niche is low buck bread and butter builds. Their sub reflects this in using a Mustang II type spindle they make themselves instead of using an Aluminum Corvette assembly. There is a small weight penalty for using more steel parts but it may only be a few lbs. I drove their Camaro at the test and it was easy and pleasant to drive at an autocross. Their choice of springs was on the stiff side and I suggested they soften the spring rates to help that. The TCI car was just built prior to the Super Chevy test, and as far as tuning goes, they were quite fortunate to do so well in their first test, and should have a better ride compromise as far as springs, bars, and shocks after running the car more, - which they plan on doing.

DSE is far and away ahead on car testing and development, which shows up in getting a good ride out of the car and still handling incredibly well. Their subframe is very nice, probably very stiff, and very capable. A hydroformed sub with Corvette spindles and brakes is going to be more expensive to be sure. Does a splined sway bar work better than a non-splined? I think it's more of a cool factor, but you can swap bar diameters and re-use the same arms so there is perhaps a small savings if you do a lot of bar changes. Some of the other MFR's may not have as wide a selection of bar diameters for you.

The Morrison, & Speed Tech, subs are good and I think how the car handles and rides is more up to who is tuning the suspension than how the sub is made. They are probably small differences in camber gain and roll center height or movement, but truth be told, the tires are the biggest factor on sheer cornering power, and the driver is usually the deciding factor on winning or loosing an event.

The Alston sub is good, I think it only lacks proof and tuning at autox and track events. Steve Rupp is using their stuff on Track Rat and it will be interesting to see how it performs.

Jake's sub has performed wonders. I'm not as familiar with it, but he's certainly proved it works great.

I'm less for a stock sub these days, mainly because the new subs clear wider tires, & are more easily adjusted for ride height with coil overs that you can get at much easier than on a stock sub. I've also seen higher torsional resistance on the aftermarket subs than I thought they ever had.
David

Frank hit the nail on the head with his post. Excellent explanation.
For me, I'm going all out DSE sub frame and DSE Quadra-Link. Speed-Tech would be my second choice.:thumbsup:
GOOD LUCK!!:cheers:

alway great to have your input on threads like these dave!
:thumbsup:

My basic plan for the car would be to hit up some auto-x and when i get more driving skill, hit up track events. I would love to car to be a somewhat daily driver, though i have a car that would be my daily driver for gas price reasons.

I have to say thus the responses here have been awesome so far. great info, thanks a bunch Frank and David, and everyone else that has contributed.

Keep the info coming ive really enjoyed the reading and now have some food for thought and some decisions to start making.

I decided to weld up the stock subframe, convert it to the Chicane coil over system with QA1's, Speedtech UCA's and LCA's, Speedtech tie rod sleeves, a 3rd gen steering box, and Hotckis sway bar. Should be more than sufficient for street use...and a lot cheaper!

I don't plan on any hard core autocrossing or road racing, so in theory, I probably went overbaord on what I did, but if I do decide to dodge a cone or two one day, it's already set up for it.

Don't know. That senario would be so hard to prove it will never be known.

What I do know is on autocross, Kyle Tucker is probably the most experianced and best driver of the top 5 at RTTHs and while Jason is a good driver, he would be the first to tell you he has WAY less autocross experiance then Kyle who races almost every weekend in the same car, and Jason's car was right there time wise with stock subframe and leaf springs. And Jason had never autocross the car either, it was first time out for the car. Bret from Air Ride is probably as good or a VERY close second in total lap times as Kyle and lead most of the day with a stock subframe and Air Ride, and at the end of the day was witin a 10th.

So yes, on the autocross I believe a modded stock sub can do very well.

As for high speed stabily at Optima or the likes, no one really knows. It only makes sense at higher speeds the "geometry numbers" of the high end after market frames HAVE to come into play. But then on the big track horsepower has proved to be king so far. And driver plays into the equation even more.

Again, I hate up selling and selling stuff to people they do not need or cannot really afford. The Pro Touring movement with all these badd ass builds going on has a tendancy causing us to feel pressured to NEED all the trickest stuff to have a cool car, and it simply is not the case.

But hey, if you got the dough, by all means give me a call and buy a subframe, I would love to sell one, but if you have not got the money for it, you don't need it.

well put. think you made my decision. its probably for the best i do it this way. 22 years old i cant afford to do this high dollar stuff. maybe in my mechanical engineering classes ill be able to design some stuff down the road. but for now i think it might stay stock sub with some good bolt on stuff. i honestly just wanna see some progress on my car again.

I really think at some point in the build process a car needs a subframe. Like most of us, my build ballooned into more than I ever planned. Frank & the boys at Prodigy had the stock subrame welded in and the sheet metal hung when I decided it was the wrong decision for the direction of the car. In the original posters situation, a gulstrand mod, good alingment, and especially some sticky tires is the best advice.

Nothing but good advice in this thread... someone should sticky this one.

Im hearing ya Frank... Some great points you make!!
To the OP you cant go wrong either way..

Well said frank. you gotta ask yourself " what are your goals" and go from there. we all like the big dollar parts but in the end if your only building a crusier and occasional auto crosser then stick with stock.

Now if I was building another 69 for myself would I do stock ...? No , DSE's frame is so damn nice !!!hehe .

I was on your site Yesterday, Love the builds your got going on :thumbsup:

Mary Pozzi throws down pretty well (real frickin well) w/moded stock frame.The George Follier's restored trans am mustang threw down pretty well at optima in nov.I be willing to bet that if Mark Donahue was still here he would make a lot of folks rethink the after market sub frames.Do what you feel comfortable with.A finished car is more fun than a car on jack stands.Good luck.:thumbsup:

amen. im really sick of seeing it in pieces and it will be sitting even longer if i continue with my delusions of grandeur. i need to learn to drive appropriately first before i go blowing all sorts of money on hitech suspension pieces that i really cant even afford anyway but think i need.:thumbsup:

Besides what I said earlier, it occured to me one of the pluses going with an aftermarket subframe, and that's that all of the components were chosen to work together. While you can buy for example a hotchkis kit for the stock subframe that will probably be fine, but to get the best stock subframe possible, you tend to have to do a lot of reading and comparing to pick out parts.

Thanks for the clarification about the spring rates on the TCI Camaro Dave.

The springs rates that were used that day were 50 lbs heavier front and 100 lbs heavier rear than what is in the car now. The reason being is our car was completely untested 24 hours before the event so we had a bit of guess work for spring rates on our hands. We had plans to install the TigerCage and interior before the event so we sprung it a little heavy in preparation. Unfortunately, time did not allow these items to be installed or the springs to be changed before the event. Needless to say the springs that are in the car today are exactly what the customer will receive when they purchase a kit and it rides & handles much better now.

My thinking is if it ran that good untuned just wait til it is dialed in.

See you guys/gals in Vegas this weeked!

:cheers:

-J

Great thread!!
lots of options no question about it, and i think Frank Or Vegas asked the most important ? "What are you using the car for?" that is the first ? that needs to be answered.
then you can formulate a plan that makes sence from there.

All excellent advice and I concur - decide what the goals and budget are and start there. You've started by asking the right questions for sure and I have been through the same process as have others. And I cannot help but watch Mary blast that 2nd gen of hers around the track with a stock sub and Hotchkis kit! Impressive and as someone here suggested, a lot of it is the driver. Not to hijack this great thread but in the spirit of helping another member....I see you are just north of me (I'm in San Diego) so IF you decide to go with modified stock, I have some unused first gen suspension that I'm probably not going to use. PM me if interested.

I have a really clean, welded and fresh powdercoated stock sub, some Del-a-lum bushed, powdercoated UCA & LCA's with QA1 coilovers, Hotchkis front bar and a set of Landrum rear springs and bushings. I also have a complete, brand new, soup-to-nuts Hotchkis TVR setup for a first gen including the UCA's, LCA's, 4 lowered springs, 2 sway bars and their Bilstein shocks for front and rear plus all the bushings, brackets and hardware. I think there's even a late model, rebuilt steering box here somewhere. These were going on other projects that I'm not going to get to anytime soon so I'm sure we could work something out if you decide to go that route. I don't think Frank will mind because I buy all my stuff from him anyway!

But again, check on your goals and make a plan. It will change anyway but start with a plan LOL!

G.

It was my understanding that the TCI car ran 450#/in ft and 325 #/in rear for the 2009 Super Chevy Competition. (which apparently rode rough--per Super Chevy May 2010). Now they sell kits with 350/250 # coils. (these rates are assuming an LS2 or LS3 Block). I would assume that they have a rather soft ride in comparison?

I spoke with Roger from Speedtech, (thanks for the help!), and he stated that they sell the track time package with 450/220# coils. (these rates are assuming an LS2 or LS3 Block) Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't the Speedtech system ride nearly as rough as the originally tested TCI Car given the 450# rates?

Thanks in advance for you input.
Bobby

The ride quality depends on the motion ratio and the spring rate. In simple terms, if the spring is farther out towards the ball joint, it has a higher motion ratio and the spring is more effective. If the same spring is moved closer to the bushings of the control arm, the motion ratio is decreased and so is the spring effectiveness and the ride will get softer.
What will effect the ride quality is the final wheel rate. This is determined based on the spring rate and the motion ratio.

For the rear suspension, as far as I know, both set ups have springs mounted directly to the axle housing and therefore have a 1:1 motion ratio, so the springs are a direct comparison.

Shocks are also a huge part of ride quality, and should not be overlooked. Adjustables are a major help as you can tune them down for the street.

Hope that helped
:cheers:

so here is what i run in ResurreXion our Nova
Track Time Front and rear obviously
LS2 with a t56, and 500lb front and 220 rear springs, and i can tell you, as can the guys from Super Chevy the car rides beautifully, you would not begin to call it harsh or rough, so on our system to run a 450 in the front with a LS for street/ agressive driving is PERFECT! i decided to run the 500 for a comparison and wouldn't change them, i have driven the car 250 miles non stop and it wasn't the least bit uncomfortable. if you want to run the shocks on full Stiff it may be too stiff. i have not tried it because it is not required.

Thanks Ken and Blake,

I wonder how the current TCI system rides....

Would you recommend single adjustable Coil overs for someone who does more street driving than track time (to help with the budget?) It seems as though the doubles maybe unnecessary from someone who is not so serious....

(I presume the Track time package comes with single adj?)

Thanks

yes single adj shocks are all you would need. yes the TTP comes with single adj shocks

I can assure you without driving it that the difference in autocross and slalom performance with 320 rear springs and 220s is going to be substaintial! Unless those springs are at a very steep angle (and if they were 220s would not work later) 320s is WAY to much for a street car

And I think the front springs were stronger then that during that test.

Frank,

I presume you're speaking of the Speedtech System, not TCI?

Roger had recommended a 450/220 for an LS set-up. He said many use 500 and up for the front coils depending on engine choice and driving charartistics.

No, I am addressing the spring rate of the TCI set up. 320s on the rear is really strong.

Go Karts handle great............they don't ride very good.

Personally, after switching from R compounds to street tires, I'm not sure how a 320 rear spring could work.

They are mounted directly to the axle but they are laid over roughly 20 degrees. Effectively removing 15%-20% of its tension.

Mary has driven the car as recently as October with the softer springs so maybe she can chime in to how it rides with an unbiased opinion. :unibrow: I am not sure whether they lay theirs over at the same angle to be directly comparable.

I would compare the heavier springs ride quality to a LX/LY SRT8 with Eibach springs. With the lighter springs I would compare it to a stock SRT8.

Anyone local to SoCal is more than welcome to come take a ride in the car and make your own conclusions.