With more PT cars being tracked is it changing PT vendors product offerings?
 

Curious for opinions on if there is a trend or not where more and more PT parts vendors are changing their product offerings from formerly offering pro-touring components for street use only to now providing components that can hold up doing track duty also?

I thought that was the point of PT cars and the products offered for this niche.

From reading the various experiences of many individuals here and elsewhere, I don't think all products marketed as 'PT' components can handle repeated thrashes at a track, nor were they intended to.

That's an interesting question as I'm in that 'buy cycle' where I want my components to be track capable. We all know there is a definate difference between a full on race and street use (mostly) copmponenets. Front clip, shocks, roll bar decisions (12 pt?), drivetrain, things that make the car work on the track (see Payback thread) all venture into my head and car designs.

From a market perspective, I believe what I buy and put on the car today will be second rate in five years. If they're still on my car in five years. Racing will do that to a hobby...

Trying to walk the line between street and track duty is no easy task. From clutches, oil coolers, brake pads, crankcase evacuation, fuel systems, clearances, heat protection, power steering and the list goes on and on. A regular PT car is going to be able to get away with murder compared to a car like Penny where it's pushed to the absolute limit. A compromise is the easiest definition. You must find the best option that will make you happy on the street(happy as you can be) and capable of taking the abuse. I'm not sure I would've built this car so nice if I could rewind time. The bottom line is the street is a joke for these cars. This thing goes from 50 to 100 in the blink of an eye. You simply can't use it unless you live in the country somewhere. The race track is the ONLY place you can realize the cars true potential safely. Not everyone is interested in racing or trying to outgun Penny or Jackass. That's certainly not my goal. My goal is to make my car as reliable and fast as I'm capable. If I'm at the top or bottom of the heap, I honestly don't care.

Don't get roped into thinking something is capable of withstanding the abuse you plan just because it's a PT part. Do your own due diligence. At the end of the day, you are basically engineering your own car by using parts from bunches of different companies and making them gel. It's actually a fun part of the build. Everytime you solve a problem, you make the car better and more reliable.

Thanks Todd, very well said.

That's the kind of info I'm looking for.

Well said Todd. I'm with you on that - making a car as good as it can be, while not trying to be king of the track is the way to go.

Like all of us I'd like to build the car once.

Improvements afterwards of course is a given.

I guess I'd overdo it on the build so it can withstand repeated track thrashes.

Then if the car is not tracked as much as planned, at least you've covered those bases ... in case the plan changes again. :yes:

Exactly my plan!!:thumbsup: :unibrow:

The thing I've noticed in the last couple years are the large increases in hp in the cars now, while keeping the weight ratio low. IMO 600hp is the low end and 700-800 will be the norm, if you want to compete. Especially at places like Pahrump.

The LS motors have been a big improvement.

Being able to run a 10 inch tire in front is huge also.

Not to argue against your comment, but how much power can really be used in a PT car that is done right. (good suspension, tires, brakes...)
What is the limit of useful power? The limits come into play with traction of course. And there is a big difference between the auto x course and open track too. I assume an open track event might be able to use more power and help, but that at the auto x too much power might be tough to manage unless you want to go drifting. ??

I ask because I am shooting for about 500-550 hp and my car will be 90% street driven. But it will have a very good suspension system, brakes and tires too. I figured the HP goals I have in mind would be more than enough and too much more might just be wasted.

Your thoughts? Any ones thoughts?

Thanks for any input on this. Just something I had been thinking about.

I'm not sure I agree with you Stuart. With the new treadwear ratings the extra power may prove to be a disadvantage or a very slight advantage.

Mark Steilow's new car might answer a bunch of these questions soon. :D

Hey Eric...I agree somewhat. IMHO, today's designs support about 650 to the rear wheels in most track events on first gens. This goes to Skip's early supposition that PT cars are getting more track serious as R&D cycles progress. I took one look at Todd's spinout at Spring Mtn (I think), and made that call. Further, I'm just a hobbiest. I don't have a race team nor a budget to support full time racing (but wouldn't that be fun), so I'm building a street use car that is track capable. If I had unlimited resources I'd build a car like Jackass, but I don't so I'll get my car done with around 500 RWHP and do a motor upgrade as phase two to try and get to 600+...

Ron

Hi Ron,
I agree on the R&D comment too. And I see more products all the time that APPEAR to be geared more on the performance side of the fence. Like you I am just a hobbiest and have to make the best of what I have and even though the car will be really nice and very capable it will still be full of compromise compared to a track only car. I need it to perform everywhere and over a very wide spectrum. A full tilt track car would suck on the street IMO. But then again that is the cool thing about these cars, getting the max level of performance we can and still be able to live with them on the road.
That is where I see the parts manufacturers heading within this portion of the car hobby. More and more people want performance but still do not want to give up comfort and style.

PT cars being tracked? where? Most PT cars only "track" at good guys and car show events. I'm glad to see events like El toro happening, but I don't see too many people getting too involved in track days....

I've invited every single person on both latg and pro-touring.com to every event I've ever attended. Never has anyone shown.

You'll notice most of the cars actually tracked are rough, for good reason. If you don't slide off the track from time to time, you're not driving fast enough.

HP has nothing to do with being fast. You realize this when you're passed by a spec miata or boxster. Its all driver.

A key fact most pro-touring folks forget. Hence many cars being driven by other drivers and not the owners.

In the track community you'll hear stories about stock looking subarus and occasionally oddball cars like mazda speeds showing up to track events and dominating the entire field. Why? not power, its the driver, and the driver knows the car.

I'm glad you're addicted to the track Todd. I really am. Your car deserves to be flogged.

Besides, we need to show all these LSX bandwagon folks that big cubes can still get it done. :thumbsup: (at 5mpg) :lol:

Todd, you know I love your car and respect you, so disageeing with me is no biggie, I'm not very smart most of the time. I've just noticed some trends. We all can agree about suspension components, brakes ,etc as being a huge upgrade from stock. I've just noticed cars like DSE's test cars, Scott's car, Air rides stuff, Penny, Jackass, your new powerplant in your car, and Marks amazing almost done car, that hp is not low. And it just make sense to me that if the weight can be kept down somewhat while increasing hp then that will be better. I also know some tracks won't matter as much, but overall it is better IMO.

I don't see you building a new motor with less hp!!

More tire up front is a huge deal IMO, but that's just me.

HP is high because the owners are compromising for a lack of driver talent. I admit this with my own car. More tire up front is the biggest deal, I agree 100%.

The jury is out on whether or not aftermarket subframes, LSX engines, 3 links, and all the latest goodies make a fast car or not. The only way of testing it would be to use 1 driver, 1 track, multiple cars and tracking data. In my own heavily biased and sometimes obnoxious opinion :lol: most of the aftermarket parts we are so blessed to have are shiny bling, nothing more.

Good ole leaf springs, a modified stock subframe, a decent amount of power, and a decent driver will go a LOT farther than a guy whos never spent any seat time at a track with a 150k pro-touring car....

Point is, spend more time on the track, get faster. You can spend all you want on your car, or as little, the guy that spends more time out driving will always be faster.

Speaking of which, any of you interested in skip barber this year? Todd? Once I'm recovered from this surgery I have the itch to go to laguna seca and drive up as well. :thumbsup:

Now you see Dane, why I offered to drive you down to RTTC? I was gonna pick your brain on track set up for an hour each way...:lol:

I have yet to receive a refund, so technically I'm not out yet. Even though I can barely stand up to pee :lol:

I may pull a Steve Rupp and bring a ringer to drive my car.:willy:

Of course with all the supension upgrades we have now, more hp can be used to push them upgrades harder and have more fun.

That is kind of what I was getting at Dane. I think we agree? Too much power can be a waste beyond a certain point. Or at the least harder to manage and actually hurt lap times if you're spending time correcting or fighting the power delivery. But then again it all comes back to the driver there too.:cheers:

We definitely agree. Knowing what I know now, I would have built my car in this order:

Nice shell
Full cage or roll hoop depending on your goals
Fire suppression
Proper seats
Every Carbon Fiber weight loss part from Anvil
Everything else fiberglass where possible for weight savings
Proper Brakes
Suspension setup of your choosing
Driving school
Racing school
AutoX events
Track days, LOTS of them

Drivetrain can remain slow while you learn to drive the car. 300hp is fine. You upgrade your drivetrain when you're capable fully utilizing the power.

A properly trained driver in a Mazda Miata will lap most of the cars on these forums. A fact most people will not believe....

That said, a lot of people are not building track toys or race cars, they are building their preference of luxury, comfort, performance in their own car. Most seem to lean towards comfort and luxury.

I believe a lot of the people in this community are trying to build a lexus out of a muscle car. Any time I see mention of mpg or AC I know who I'm talking to. :lol:

What kind of Skip Barber class do you have in mind, there are a ton of options. In any case, I think it would be cool to have a group of pro-touring guys at a driving school, everyone could always learn more, regardless of experience.

And yes, as for what has been said about horsepower, I would have to agree that a lot of the owners out there are building engines with power outputs that far exceed usefulness due to driver skill, or lack there of, and I think it is because everyone wants to be able to compete with cars like Bad Penny or Jackass, which both have very competent drivers capable of handling north of 600 horsepower.

Matt

Doesn't take very long to want 700 hp after driving 600.

It's a sickness called 'ten-more-itis'

You wanna go faster? You gotta spend 10 more G's...:yes:

Bad Penny has the best mod out there, a driver with a lot of experience :lol:

/pokes steve

I agree with your comment on power. And the Miata driver too.
BUT......I want AC and decent MPG! :rofl:

Agreed. Only thing keeping me from doing heads/cam/intake is the fact that I know *I* am the limiting factor in getting the car faster. That'd put me just under 600whp.

I lack the testicles and confidence to enter turn 8 at big willow at 150mph... I think 650-700whp is manageable in a first gen as long as its setup right. I believe the minitub trend of stuffing steamrollers in the back isn't about traction as much as it is for looks. A leftover trend from streetrodding and pro-street.

I have minimal issues with traction on R888s and 460whp 510ft/lbs...

Buy a prius! :lol:

When I drove my blue car with all the DSE suspension parts and an LS7 with approx 540 hp, it definately felt like the car could handle another 150 hp. So its all relative, if you have a good foundation 550hp seems easily manageable. If you have a stock camaro and 700 hp, you better have life insurance.

a stock camaro with 700hp wont go past 60mph :lol:

I can't imagine my car in stock form with 500hp. Let alone 700hp! LOL!!

I will have it set up with very good suspension and brakes and tires too. Performance is the goal. The car will be better than I am. Just like my bike is.
So MY goal is 500-550 but in a properly built chassis. Maybe someday I will grow into it and need more. But I try to be realistic about that kind of thing.
I think I am better off with a well balanced car instead of a HP monster, no skills and stock chassis.

So I am very glad the manufacturers are going in the direction of performance more and more now. Back in the Pro Street days that was not the case. If it was chrome or billet it went on the car. Performance was not even a consideration. In fact many didn't even run. To me that is a GIANT waste of cash. Any part that does not make the car a better performer should not be on it IMO.
:cheers:

I thought that too, until I realized that, as of now and until the weather stripping is adjusted, my car is quieter with the windows down, so I doubt I'll ever need A/C. Now, decent MPGs are nice, but then again so is the sound of a big block.

Dane, I'd also agree that minitubs are at least somewhat for looks in most cases, and could represent some kind of weird, distorted pro-street nostalgia, but hey what about big blocks :lol:
BTW, I definitely know of several local cars that owners are trying to turn into Lexus/BMWs, most of those owners have more into their half finished cars than many of the finished high-end cars here, just because they always change their minds. I think most of them lack the ability to differentiate between creature comforts and new car feel.

Matt

Muscle cars aren't about luxury, they're about riding lightning and turning money into heat, adrenaline, noise and melted rubber. They always have been and always should be.

To refine a muscle car is a sin. I can understand AC, power steering, comfy seats. But to expect modern car comfort and "get in and go" functionality out of one seems to go against the mere purpose of the vehicle.

Then again, I'm a guy stuffing a 170whp Yamaha R1 with a sequential gearbox in a 1970 mini, so I have a few screws loose myself.

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

I think some people should have bought an AMG SL55 instead of a 1969 camaro though on these forums.

A refined muscle car is cute, I'd like one for my girlfriend.:willy:

1- camaro's are pony cars not muscle cars.:D
2- i live in vegas and AC is a need here.:yes:

Corner entry speed isn't going to change regardless of power at the rear wheels. My old engine made 491rwhp and 497 rwtq and it was very managable during a fast autocross. The new engine is 75hp and 54 ftlbs stouter at the flywheel. It's now a handful. My opinion is you will need to be a much better driver the more power you put under the hood. How many 1000hp drag cars have you seen run 12's? :lol: Ryan Mathews in the DSE car almost taking out the cobra on the road course is a prime example. That car makes South of 500/500 at the tires. I doubt you see DSE with 700-800hp. I don't think the chassis can handle it. Meaning, decent traction in the first three gears. Let's not forget I'm running R888's and all the events will be 200 treadwear. Do I think Stielow can handle 800hp. Yep, but most of you can't. Putting down that kind of power in a straightline with a well prepared track is a different ballgame than a road course or autocross. I wouln't want anymore power.....there is a point where you over power your chassis, tires, and you run out of talent.

Since a number of people don't frequent both boards, I also started the same title thread on pro-touring.com and
Jimi Day posted this...

"I think there's been several companies that made parts to stand up to track days even before the popularity of these events that we see today. I'm lucky to get to work with many of these companies on a daily basis. I can tell you without a doubt that those companies that have always made great parts are making them even better, and all the others have upped their game substantially. The "street car" track events are definitely making a difference and creating change."