Put up or shut up..... bench racers!
 

New to the hobby (2 years) and about 75% of the way through my project. I've been reading these forums, started w/ PT.com, for about 3 so thanks for getting me into this great hobby.

As of late, I've noticed there's a lot of b.s. about how this suspensions kicks a** and this one sucks.... unless you're just a street guy blah blah blah. Oh those brakes are ok, if.... etc. I'm interested in who here has really had an opportunity to drive a well tuned version of more than 1 or 2 setups? Seems most buy a car, the suspension is old and worn, buy the new greatest things and their car is the best (as long as everyone on the forum agrees). I bought into this at first, but more I've learned, a lot of it is starting to seem like bench racing to me. Like my girlfriends little ricer brother and his friends. Don't get me wrong, a lot of people here have a wealth of true knowledge, and I appreciate the technical insights I find here that lead me to research different ideas. I just think that because of the expense of this hobby and the limited experiance resulting from not having 20 cars, comparing one setup to another is b.s. unless you have experiance, not just theory to base it on.

So point being, when is the lateral-g, pro-touring group showdown gonna happen? There's a whole lot of you guys fairly close together on the west coast, why don't you guys get together and really see what's what, go out and flog 'em, race 'em, trade 'em for a lap or 2. Sort of like that RSE, Chris Kerr's car was sweet, and my inspiration.... wasn't intentional that my ebay bought car is the same color. Point is he brought it out and exposed his setup, ran it to show what it could do; didn't sit on the net and explain why it was better, or why the other guys is worse.

I know you guys don't rudely bash, however you know when somebody says "no offense but...." it's still an insult.

When/where's the next RSE style get together for the lateral-g crew? When are you guys gonna put some proof behind these millions of posts?

ok..this has been talked about PLENTY. I think Scott could probably appoint someone to head this up and have it happen sometime next year. I know the V8TV guys were looking for something similar to cover..Just please dont mention the "P" word. :wow:

I will line em up..........just let me know when!!!! I have several friend's willing to participate too. I wouldn't put it on scott, just through up a date and if it is within traveling distance, i will put up..

Don't really think lateral-g is based on racing, it is more based to building and style, but there are a few of us that will build and hopefuly get some style, yet race em.

I may talk gibberish, but i don't talk ****, so let's get it on. :rofl:

I had the Regional Executive of Land O' Lakes Region of the SCCA contact me in regards to putting on an event at BIR (Brainerd). You're more than welcome to come and participate. :)

And you're right about bench racing. That's what online car communities are all about - a resource for enthusiasts.

EDIT: I forgot to add that there are two RSE winning cars featured here on the site. :thumbsup:

Welcome. :)

:wow: :faint: WHEN??? :willy: :unibrow:

Welcome Mikamaro to the best site on the net. Thanks for your post. By the number of your posts, you are the "New Guy". You have a great idea and obviously, you have a car with a terriffic set up you wish to exploit. So do I. its in a box waiting for me to set it up. Note I said "BOX" singular as to extascentually (sp) mean boxes. I just mean my garage as a box, if you will. Why is my project not done...hmmm...I have one son in College and one daughter is a senior about to go to College. Oh and there is that wife thing and my 11 year old. I work 60 hours a week and sometimes, I just lift the garage door, breathe in and out 4 or 5 times, and let the door back down. I have more people pulling on me that I care to share. Now you want to pull too. I have great advice for you. Take initative. You obviously have internet access and can type. Take this opportunity and use your youthful energy and make calls and set this thing up. I think you have a great idea. make it happen. I will bring my set up unpainted and as rough as a night in jail. Give me some lead time though, as I am like the Russians used to be, I don't take a dump with having a meeting first, so I will need time to plan. God knows folks might starve if I am gone for more than a week. But I strongly suggest you take time and plan this thing and I'll show up.

Oh and Welcome to the site. :thumbsup:

Mikamaro,

I'm with Jim ( hey bro ), set it up and have fun.

One post, pretty brash start dude.

With a post like that don't count on the "showdown" soon, to satisfy you.

I don't think most here would want to "trade em for a few" and go thrashing. I have more class than to ask "can I borrow the MULE, I want to go beat the piss out of it, be right back".

I do think this site is great, I play the alumin8r video at least once a week :drool: and I know people here can build great cars. I really would like to know if people have personally driven more than one style of suspension / subframe kit that has been setup well and what their opinions are, hopefully with some #'s to back it up.

There are some magazine guys on this site, can we hit on some of these frame/subframe guys to set up their own cars and bring to a showdown / testdrive? Wayne Due vs. Detroit Speed vs. Art Morrison vs. 21st vs. Martz vs. Alston Chassiworks( front and new wierd rearsetup everyone disses) vs. CARS vs. Air Ride Specialties vs. Hot rods from Hell(truck arm rear?)..... maybe at Hot Rod Power Tour, I would even pay to drive each of these cars, 1-2 laps w/ them driving and 2-3 laps yourself. 9 cars ~$450, sounds great!

Ummgawa - I do not have a terrific setup but I do like to thrash it and I do feel your pain buddy, my project may be 75% done, but it's also probably at least a year+ from being finished. I work overseas 320-330 days a year, 7 days/12 hours + so I get approx 2 weeks over xmas to take my car apart, a lucky day or two here and there in the spring, and then 4 weeks in the summer. This means I put my mess back together for 2 weeks and try break it the last 2 :yes: . No kids or wife as of yet, so when I am home, it's full time in the garage.

Well stated Stuart, to call out the entire Lateral-g/PT membership with your first post may not get the response that you desire. But after all is said and done an event like the one your proposing is an excellent way to get those hardcore guys to lay down the law. Oh yeah and welcome to the site!

Yeah I know it was a little brash, more than a little. I have honest interest on personal experiance with different setups from people who have driven more than one style. Being new to the forum, didn't want to get a one post reply telling me to read the forum.... I have, and the PT forum, for 3 years now (lurker). So I've been somewhat succesful in my goal so far, there's interest popping up so far...
-Mike

I am I the only one that is kinda rubbed the wrong way by this thread........

Not everyone hear wants to run the Sh*t out of there car, My car is not even done yet andI can promise you I will not run the hell out of it at the track....yes yes I know I not a pro-tourer but I don't care.

To come on here with your first post and call everyone out is a little bold IMO

*edit*

we posted at the same time

That's definitely been talked about here and several manufacturers are game. I think it could happen someday, but there's SO many variables, I don't know how you'd pronounce one as the overall winner. However, it has to be one of the most talked about subjects around. How do we quantify between what works and what works best.

Maybe if we could get an Ride and Handling engineer to shake down each car... :D

Derek, I'm not blind (yet), you can tone down the font. :rolleyes: The BIR event that has been talked about is during Fun Ford Weekend. I've also have some info about a possible track event at IRP. It's only a matter of time before we get something lined up. :thumbsup:

Mikamaro, where are you located? Some of us have gone to the track, and if you want to come by, we can show you how it works. I've driven a few modified cars, and helped build a few too, and I only speak from experience. Many of the guys here do as well. Thing is, if you drive the car on the street, you'll BARELY notice the differences. Here's a story. In my Camaro club, a fellow member complained of spending $60+ on brake pads for his sons car. He told me that they were supposed to be a high performance brake pad, but that he felt no difference driving it around town. Well, you won't. Most performance pads you won't be able to tell the difference. Bash on the car a bit, and heat the brakes up, and you'll notice where the difference comes in.

Now, yes, there are a lot of "passing on what I've heard" guys around, but at least half of the time that information comes from someone who knows. I've done a lot of research on parts for my car, and I've asked people what differences they've felt. That is something that helps me make a decision on what I get for my car. In fact, I've built a friends Honda and told him exactly what he could expect. He was shocked when it actually happened. So, not all bench racing is BS. You have to know who to talk to, learn who really does know what they are doing, and then make a decision. Most of the guys here, except for a couple guys I won't mention, know what they are doing. Get a basic idea from what you read here, but doing it yourself is what gives you experience. Here, we will mainly talk about what we have experienced.

Sorry Scott - got a little excited, and dang near peed myself :_paranoid :lol:

The problem is, unless all the cars have equal engines, transmissions, tires, brakes, drivers, weight, etc. this test won't really "prove" anything.

This would be fun to run against each-other's cars, but if one person's car beats mine on the track, does that make its setup "better"? Not to me, if he's got 5x as much money in his, or needed to hack his car up to install it, and mine does almost as good as a budget bolt-on setup, or if it makes that guy's car uncomfortable, or impractical to drive long distances.

"What works" all depends on your budget, and what you're willing to sacrifice for the performance. Asking on here is one of the best ways to find the info, since there are many members with experience, who are not trying to sell a product that can give you mostly unbiased information.

:lol:

Derek is right, you also have to take in account the cost vs. performance aspect. There's just no clear cut answer. It comes down to personal goals, vision, and budget.

We all benefit from the MANUFACTURES beating the snot out of their products, then independent people test them, and we get results = buying the products that we like as a result of their testing and our likes.

Why do all the dirty work when the experienced time proven stuff works and we can still have a life. There are people here that their job is testing stuff, that is how much energy goes into products/performance.

My point is why go beat the snot out of your car, try new parts, thrash it again and again, just to find out what works, when the BIG DOGS have done the work for you.

Its funny how when we start building a car you see your self carving corners, burning rubber and generaly running amuck. Then the reality hits you after the build its too nice too expensive to thrash on. Which sucks in a way. It seems the best cars for this are newer ones that you arnt emotionaly conected to. It also seems the older you get the stronger the take care of it syndrome is. Thats just my buck and 2 cents worth.

maybe i didnt understand you post but... i'll try and answer it.

First of all, i never claim anything about my car unless i know something for a fact. For example, i would never claim to have X amount of HP if i didnt know for sure. Secondly, i'm not sure how closely you've looked over this site, but people here are probably the most honest and straight forward you'll ever meet. If they dont know something, they will point you in the right direction to someone who does. If they do know, they will take the time to explain it to you, even if you ask 10 times. I havent seen anyone here make any comments pertaining to "bench racing" as you call it. Guys here know better than to try and do that stuff here, why? because the entire board is full of knowledgable car guys that can spot BS from a mile away.

I think you talked about people making claims about knowledge or certain products they dont have any first hand experience with... that is not "bench racing"... thats sharing opinions or experiences with others about a product or how to do something. it isnt bragging or trying to be the dominant robin in the group puffing out its chest trying to impress the girl birds. Its passing on information that is useful.

I may have read your post wrong, but thats the impression that i got.

What Stu said.

Mikamaro, welcome to the site.

We all love the pro touring cars , what we are not is a bunch of ego maniacs boasting about them. Its the friendships that we boast about, the cars just keep us out of the bars!! Unless we are in Vegas.

And Big Jim is REALLY FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!

I read this thread earlier today and decided to wait till now when I could make a rational post. If you have read, read and reread the forum, you should know that this site is not a bunch of high and mighty "bench racers". There is many experienced, high class people with high class cars on this site and each one is willing to help. However, when you call us out on your first post, it is not a good idea. If you want to play that game, I suggest you try Corner-carvers.com. :thumbsup: Some of the best suspension tech on the net. As you can tell from the responses in this thread, you are welcome here.

Mike

How is this shot, taken today? Even though I know I am a Poser, I will light em up!

I told you guys not to use the "P" word :willy:

wilcome .
bill looks smoke out of your tail pips lol. :)
lets all go an have fun . :captain: :rofl: :wow:
rick kirkindall :thumbsup:

Hey Bill,

That Goat can really peel out! :thumbsup:

Sure wish I could burn some rubber but it's kinda hard with snow up here. Forecast for tonite is 4-8inches. When is spring going to get here??


Kurt




www.autokraft.org

So thats what that was. Dang it, I must really be a "P"
That must have been oil I wiped off the quarters too, but it did look like rubber......lol

Nice shot Bill.

Kurt, put some chains on....

Hey great idea Stuart, I think I'll head out to the shop and give it a try :D

put up
 

Ok, find an open track day or autocross, post it and see how many members show up. Although you may only get members in your area. At least someone should show to flog their car. I mean run it, or at least take it out on the track to see how it performs.

bill looks good , keep up the good work . :thumbsup:
rick kirkindall

It is amazing how long it takes to work all that smoke out of the tires. Keep on working at it Bill.
W.

When and where
 

We've been wanting to shoot something like what is being discussed here for a long time. Not so much to show a winner and loser, but to profile what some of these cars are capable of when properly set up, and also to provide some tips to the ones that are having some troubles.

It reminds me of the Pro Street shootout Car Craft did back in the early '90's... when Pro Street was becoming Pro Trailer... they ran some of the high-profile cars of the day and were completely let down. It turned out that all the thourough-the-hood blowers and tubbed chassis cars didn't run very well after all.

We'll have to knock our heads together to come up with a couple events where we can get a track and do it up without breaking the bank. Maybe a long weekend sometime so people could participate from different parts of the country.

V8TV, what would be cool if you do a show on something like this, would be to include a new car as a bench-mark to compare them to, like a new Porsche or some other sports-car that people tend to think way too highly of. People seem to think only the Europeans know how to make a car handle, so if you used a 'vette, the euro-car guys would all rip on it for getting beat by "old, heavy, tanks"... do the same tests with a Porsche, and suddenly it's amazing how great the old cars handle, rather than how poorly the new one does...

Something set up like CC's RSE, but without the "show" part of it... also include cost to build, and gas-mileage, and several muscle-cars ranging from a $10,000 build to a $100,000 build.

And hey.. If you want a bone stock restored 69 SS 350 to set some factory base numbers, I won't be afraid to stretch out my 14X7 bias plies....... :lol:

Bill those pics are sweet! That's my way of testing a setup.

I think the reason why he call us bench racers is becuase most of us on this site are in the PROJECT stages of our builds. How can we test anything if we are building it over time?

Anyways, I promise you I will "test" my Camaro when it's done in the best of ways. And I'll post pics and videos to prove it.

I am counting the minutes until autocross season, I plan to beat the pee pee out of my car.

Any jersey/ny/ct. guys want to join me, let me know.

I have video of my car being thrashed with the stock suspension, cant wait to drive the dse version.

I also plan to try pocono once i get the harnesses.

Ok...
 

OK... I can get us an M3, an NSX, a CTS-V, a DTS-V, (bad ass car, by the way...) and a LS7 Z06, and maybe an E55 and a CL65.

Do these sound like good benchmarks? The Lateral-G cars really have to run (and turn and stop!) to hang with these cars, but I'd love to shoot it!

- KO

It seems to have gone all quiet here, does this mean that you don't wanna see what your cars compare like to these modern hi po machines?? :unibrow:

Don't mean to put a dampner on things here, but laying a little rubber isn't what P/T is all about surely?? Any of the hot euro 4 bangers can easily lay more smoke than that :unibrow: . I thought it was about handling & performance, you know, take an old body style & hop it up with supercar performance. I noticed that the last thread about testing the cars on a track amounted to nothing. C'mon guys, show the world how well they can perform....or don't they ???? Mmmmm..... :rolleyes: