The Inhaler - All-Electric 23 Model T Autocross/Drag Truck
 

I hope my madness is welcome here. I know you guys love the growl and snarl of a badass V8 (as do I), so I am hoping this won't make you too nauseous. If numbers help any, in full race trim my electric motor will be capable of 500hp/1000ft-lb, with all 1000ft-lb available at 0rpm! Final weight goal is 1200lbs. To keep it from sounding like an electric drill on steroids, I am working on some advanced acoustic tricks, with the goal of something more like an F1 car at full boil - that's the goal anyway. More on all that later though.

The real point of this whole project was just to have a platform to display my CAD work. The compact electric powertrain gives me more freedom in design, without sacrificing performance, and opens doors for me outside the world of hot rodding. I'm really challenging myself with the design. I want it to unmistakably be a modern race car, but still look antique. For autocrossing, I chose IFS and I am going to try to make that whole setup look right - kind of like putting a Model T body on an old Ferrari grand prix chassis. Blah, blah...:rolleyes:

What it's supposed to be (special thanks to Derek69SS for the original T pic):
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/...ms/art/023.jpg
Note : don't read too seriously into the "Accused of" section - just having fun with words to play on the electric theme - I'm not a real "greenie". ;)



I actually started this project in 2005, but got side-tracked with surviving. It originally had an SBC in it. I sold my shop in 2008 and moved to Columbus to concentrate on CAD. I left the Inhaler in storage at a so-called friend's shop for a few months. When I went back to get it, it was sitting outside in front of his shop! Anyway, this is last June, after I got it here and started working on it again. I was preparing to graft Fiero front suspension on the chassis (more on why I chose such an oddball setup later). The back is GM G-body (triangulated 4-link) snipped whole from an 83 Cutlass.
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Dig the Cragar SS wheels?! :rofl: It's short for carving through cones, but the 90" wheelbase meets the NHRA minimum.

Keep going or get lost?

Keep'um coming :thumbsup: :cheers:

i really dig this!!

so what kind of acoustic tricks did you have in mind?? and what are the details on the motor?

I like this concept and am looking forward to seeing it progress.

Thanks guys! :thumbsup:



It's an 11"(dia), DC, General Electric motor from a Hyster forklift. Stock so far, but eventually it will get a full race build. A lot of times the biggest part of that is just re-wrapping the coils with higher temp insulation, and going over the rest of the motor with a fine-toothed comb. The wrapped coils get coated with epoxy and baked, brushes are upgraded, etc. It's pretty amazing that a slightly reworked forklift motor is capable of the performance it is.

I'm going much further. I'm eventually having the coils custom wound, and a couple other tricks inside. Rewinding the coils is like grinding a custom cam in a gas engine. You can put the powerband where you need it. The thing is, I need to do some testing in near stock configuration to develop a powertrain baseline and gauge vehicle dynamics. With enough information, I can tell the guy what I want the motor to do and he'll design the internals - another will do the custom winding and rebuild the motor.



In a nutshell, to really push a DC electric motor you have to provide external forced air cooling. I'm doing the CAD model now for a blower that will push around 500cfm at 190+ mph (more air speed and volume than pressure). I am modeling the case to lightly resemble an old Frenzel supercharger. It will be mounted directly to the motor case, be driven by the motor, and blow directly into the cooling ports. The combination of the huge blower running with the accelerator pedal, sucking and pushing large volumes of air, and its thin aluminum case resonating the internal sounds of the motor, are what I am working with. I have to determine the frequencies of as many of those sounds as possible, and tune the enclosure to amplify some, cancel some...

The intake side of the forced-air system will have three spun metal velocity stacks, for a retro touch, and these will also serve as megaphones to amplify the good stuff. Hope all that makes sense. :)

To couple the driveshaft to the motor (direct drive, no transmission) I needed an adapter to mate two pieces.

One is a PTO disc from a large tractor. It had a riveted hub with the right spline pattern for my motor, and it's slip fit like a driveshaft slip yoke would be:
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/...ldpics/015.jpg

And a Spicer 1350-series flange yoke.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/...ldpics/038.jpg
Neither one of these parts is up to the task of handling the torque of the race motor, but they will get the truck moving for initial testing and a little fun. Another trick inside the motor, when the full race build happens will be a custom shaft with TH400 splines on the output side, so I can eliminate this adapter.

http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/...ldpics/043.jpg
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Finished adapter assembly:
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/...ldpics/052.jpg

Sorry for all the crappy pics. My camera was broken and I took a lot of these with my cell. Eventually, I bought a little Nikon, so the quality will get better.

Now for a little of what I do... ;)

Here's a rendering of the CAD model for the rear motor mount.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/...ms/art/024.jpg

3x12.25x14.5" 6061 billet clamped down and ready to make chips.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/...ldpics/059.jpg
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It bolts to a 3" tubular crossmember on the frame with two .750" 12pt, grade 8, bolts on the ends; and four .750" studs in the middle. There will be a machined and fabricated inner structure in that crossmember, with threaded bushings for the bolts, and sleeves for the studs, that positively locates the motor and feeds the torque into the chassis properly.

There is also a minimum of .750" section width in the mount, where the motor mounts to it. So, in essence, it is a glorified .750" motor plate with a very stout base and huge fasteners.

Every so often I have to step away to preserve my sanity. To keep from getting too far away from the project mentally, I usually work on plans and do research for parts to fit those plans.

I hadn't made a final decision on wheels, so I decided to do that for this recess period. After looking at wheels until I fell asleep a few nights in a row, I finally settled (I think ;) ) on Forgeline ZX3Ps - brushed center/gloss black rims. I think they have a slight resemblance to the original T wagon wheels. I'll probably run 18s up front and 19s in back. I wanted a really lightweight wheel, but big enough to fit huge brakes. Even though the truck is going to be a featherweight, there won't be any engine braking. I want to kind of go off the deep end with the brakes to make sure there's no fade after repeated abuse. I still have to figure out what those big brakes are going to be, but needed to figure out how much room I'd have for them first.

A question: What are the best double-adjustable coil-overs for racing? I thought I was going to be running QA1s but after reading some comments about them in another thread here, I'm thinking maybe I need to find something a little more hardcore. Suggestions?

The rendering in my first post has been updated with the ZX3Ps. Hold control down and refresh if you still see HREs (I think it's shift for MACs).

Rolled it outside today to get a good look at it, while I work on plans and 3D models.
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Don't mind the rust. The rear control arms will be replaced with Alston G-body ProPower Arms. The rust on the frame is from the so-called friend who put it outside. The body and bed are just a cheapo fiberglass parts that give me something to work off. The plan is to pull molds and lay-up the real parts as carbon fiber, Kevlar, and foam composites.

Next, I plan to narrow the bed a little, put some wedge in the body, get the track nose cut and installed, and start building the roof buck. I want to see the whole vehicle mocked up, plus I need all that in place to do the cage.

:thumbsup: great work

Thanks 78. :)

Really cool project. What are the specs on that GE electric motor?

Thanks. :)

It's an 11" (dia) motor from a Hyster forklift. Underwhelming stock specs are:

DC 36/48 volts
14.00 KW
RPM 1000
60 Min Duty Cycle
Class H Insulation
330 Amps

It's currently wound SepEx (separately excited armature and field), but I will be converting to series wound field coils. I'll probably swap in a set of refurbished field coils initially, but the plan is to custom wind a set for this application. It should turn 5-6K, and put out around 500hp/1000ft-lbs. The ultimate battery pack will be 330v/2070amps, and the motor will be built to make use of that. The controller is a new one coming out (currently in development) with 500v/2500amp max numbers. That battery pack is actually capable of supporting over 900hp, but I don't think my motor will be capable of that.

Wow, really neat project. Keep the updates coming.

Thanks strtcar! :)

I've been working on plans and design stuff and I am really happy with how things are working out. I have countless hours in little details that will show up later in the build.

I figured out today that my plan to hide the roll cage in plain sight is working perfectly. I think I can get the rear down down tubes to pass inside the main body, meaning they won't be hanging out in mid-air going from the main hoop into the bed. From first glance, you'll be able to pick up clues that there is a full cage, and find more and more of it as you look deeper. The front bars will be exposed (running on either side of the motor), the rear down tubes will be visible inside the bed poking out of the body (when you get close enough to see in it), and a little of the front hoops running down behind the windshield posts will be seen. Just enough combined with the wheel/tire combo, and IFS, to let people know that there's something more sinister going on. :unibrow:

Cool project.

Maybe you already stated this, but what kind of batteries are you going to use? How many or what size will they be?

Any idea on milage range between charges?

Thanks Mark. :)

Since I am so freakin longwinded :rolleyes: , I underlined the answers to your questions, so you can skim through if you don't feel like reading yet another one of my novels. :lol:

Actually I didn't mention that - I meant to but forgot. I plan to use A123 (26650) cells. They're lithium-based, but I can't remember the exact compositition right now. They're the highest energy density of any currently available battery. They are what come in the larger DeWalt cordless tool battery packs. The downside is they're not commerically available. The company won't sell them to the general public. I have three options: Get an inside connection, get sponsorship, or buy 225 new DeWalt packs from a distributor and start dissecting (and recycling a lot of plastic).

They're little round cylindrical cells, about 1" diameter, and a tad over 2.5" long. I need 1800 of them! :wow: 18 strings of 100 series-wired cells, then paralleled. They're 3.3 volts each, so the 100 cells in series gives 330 volts for each string; then wiring those strings in parallel gives the 2070 amps. The other thing about these cells is they're the only ones that can be pushed as hard as they can, to deliver 2000 amps from such a small pack. I've done the math on all the others, and nothing comes close.

To hold them all together, I will be doing CAD/CNC cases that the cells drop into. The cases will fit under the seats, between the floor and belly pan, and between the frame rails and driveshaft tunnel, and kind of roll up behind the seats a little. I think it's going to work out to three cases on each side. That would make each case about 50-60lbs - easy to handle. The whole pack will weigh no more than 400lbs with cases, battery management system, etc. That's the key to the 1200lb final weight goal.

I should get 50-60 miles off a charge, driving conservatively, and maybe half that pushing hard. The funny thing is I would have been happy with ten, because I just wanted to be able to race. The additional range comes from A123 cells being so incredible. I think I'll have enough to do some short road courses. I'm seriously considering a little generator trailer (with a matching T bed) that would give me pretty much unlimited range. It would also be nice for recharging at the track.

I've been working with the company that is developing the new motor controller, and had to revisit my own plans to make sure my truck's design isn't the weak link in the development chain. With the new battery chemistries available now (for a price) the day for serious electric-powered performance is just around the corner. The controller being developed will be capable of 1.6 MEGAWATTS of power!!! That's 2145 horsepower!!! Also, the torque of electric motors is usually substantially higher than the horsepower numbers, and available from 0 rpm!

I don't really anticipate making or using that much power, but my plans were for a relatively measly 500hp/1000ft-lbs. The main limiting factor was my 90" wheelbase, which was purposed to make it fun to drive on an autocross course, and extremely challenging in a straight line. If I tap even half the power that controller is capable of supporting, a 90-inch wheelbase becomes more of a liability than a challenge. I decided to stretch the wheelbase out to 108 inches, and use the current mild steel chassis as a development mule. I plan to eventually replace the whole chassis with a full round tube, chrome-moly, one that will be heat-treated after welding. That plan came from a discussion on this forum about roll cages.

I revisted my artwork to reflect the new changes and add more detail. It still has the 2x3" rectangular frame rails, that will really be replaced with round tubing. I didn't have to stretch the front-three-quarter view rendering because I had already taken artistic license with it, and stretched it out to make it look better. That should have been my first clue. :) I added some roll cage tubes, the forced-air cooling unit, a better representation of the grille, and the motor controller in the bed. There's also a 108" side-view, and full sketch of the rear-three-quarter view.

The stretch also provides room for more batteries - the cases will extend from under the seats, back, and under the bed. I didn't do those in the rendering or drawings yet. It goes from 1800 cells to 2992 of them. The output increases to 449 volts/2530 amps. The truck's weight will go up from 1200lbs to about 1500lbs. Range should increase to around 100 miles per charge.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/...ms/art/035.jpg

Really interesting idea you have going here, looking forward to seeing it
progress, will sure be unique in the road racing world.

This is an awesome project, man, should be an absolute blast to autocross. Looks like it will look pretty mean, too. Definitely can't wait to see more progress.

EVs have really gotten my interest lately, it's almost like hot rodding back in the 50's was with all the new tech and progress being made. I've been toying with an attempt at an electric bike, but haven't had the brainpower, or excess cash :lol:, to devote to even getting started on the research for it.

Thanks guys. :)



I think race rods are the next evolutionary step for 20s and 30s hot rods, following in the footsteps of musclecars. My little electric version is just a twist on the idea. The Factory Five hot rods are already on the street, kind of leading the way, and there is an article in one of the latest magazines about the direction of hot rodding in general that also suggest this. It was a no-brainer for me because I love the artistic aspects of street rods, and the raw adrenaline rush of racing.




Thanks for that. I want it to look like it's a little pissed off, and not a nice sweet little cruiser! :mad: :cool: Then it'll look right when I'm beating the living $h!# out of it! :unibrow:




That's what I have been telling some of the more serious environmental EV guys. I am in it for the performance potential, but even their efforts to build daily commuters kind of reminds me of stories I read about how hot rodding developed. It's a little cottage industry, and some serious innovation is coming out of it. Hope you do that bike someday, it's a unique experience.

I've been entertaining the thought of a lowered, smoothed-out, 68-72 Chevy pickup, with a couple Flowmaster original 40-series to tow this thing around with, and give me my American V8 fix. :D I guess a Ford would match better, but I'm a Chevy guy at heart...

My dad has an old toyota truck with a bad motor, he wanted to make it into an electric vehicle so we bought an electric forklift and robbed the motor and switches. We bought a 72 volt controller and wired it all up.

http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/n...ruck2_0001.flv

Cool. Isn't it kind eerie feeling a vehicle move with no sound preceeding the action? I did some work on a guy's EV, and got my first experience with them last month. The first time was just watching it move in and out of the garage - completely silent, very strange. Then, he took me for a driveway ride and pulled a few mild (800 motor amps) pulls from a dead stop. Sitting in the car and actually hearing my bones popping, and the fabric of my clothing rubbing on the upholstery, then suddenly being in motion - almost bizarre.

Made me realize the challenge I'm facing to make my project feel and sound how I want it to. It really drives home the point of how much sound plays in hot rodding. The sounds and sensations you experience just before a driver/vehicle do something spectacular are an important part of the experience, that can easily be taken for granted. I like challenges though. :cool:

I'm trying to get back to work on it, but between juggling business, work, and school it's been slow going. The design was also not sitting well with me, and I was reluctant to start cutting and welding until I had peace with it. The problem was the stretch gave it a classic long nose hot rod profile, but I want it to look like a pickup truck. I eventually decided to add the extra inches behind the cab, and stretch the bed instead of the nose.

I did this photo-based rendering to test the idea - I like it. I also decided I want a full hood to help visually balance the proportions better.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/...ms/art/044.jpg

I'm hoping to get hands-on soon, and at least get the whole thing set up, so it looks like the rendering. If I can finally see a truck rather than a bunch of parts, maybe it'll light a fire under my... :cool:

i like the looks of the smoothies over teh pt wheels they dont look right on that early of a car in my opinion.... But thats not worth much:lol:

I'm confused. Did you mean to say you don't like them? It says you like them but they don't look right! :D Or have I not had enough coffee yet? :_paranoid :)

The smoothies would probably work well if I went with a complete 50s or 60s theme. With the rear wheels pushed back like this, and skinnies up front, I could probably pull off a nice 60s drag race theme - but that's not my thing. Ditto for big whitewalls and narrow rears for a 50s theme - not my thing.

In any case, the smoothies are just an intermediate step. I was planning on using a set right now just to get the mismatched Cragars and factory steel wheels off the thing, so I stuck them on the rendering to see what it would look like. I definitely want forged alloy wheels. Since they're not exactly cheap, I want to have the details and specs sorted out, as much as possible, before ordering them. I may go back and try the Forgelines on this view.

my vote would be Fesler FS903 wheels
http://www.feslerbuilt.com/Vehicles/...rc/Img0225.jpg

I like the smoothies sorry i didnt do a very good job at making that clear.

Lol, thanks. :thumbsup: I get it now (more coffee + your clarification = understanding) - you didn't think the PT wheels looked right on an antique vehicle! :D


I like those, but 35lbs (number from their site) seems heavy. Maybe I'll give them a call when I get closer and see what the actual specs would be for my sizes.

Wow, I didn't realize it had been so long since I last posted an update to this thread. I stalled out for a little while, because some things about the plan just weren't making sense to me. I wanted to resolve them before moving on. Greg's "tweaks" and a few mods thread for his 32 actually helped me get my focus, and get back on track. Following his "build" and reading his comments about street rods being big karts worked like a charm, and helped me figure out what was wrong. I got rid of the lid (roof), decided to forget about meeting NHRA (or any other sanctioning body) demands, and started concentrating on making art and having fun.

New art for the new plan. The suspension fairings are to "cloak" the IFS. I'll be doing some full-scale modeling soon to see if I can pull it off. I'm planning on dual, bolt-in, vintage fueler style, upper roll cages for racing.
http://toddperkinsdesign.com/images/...ms/art/064.jpg

...and a little progress. The body parts have been properly chopped up and are waiting to be "glued" back together. These parts are just functional plugs for molds and future carbon fiber replacements. The main body is channeled over the frame rails, and the belt line (upper edge) was wedge sectioned an inch. The firewall and cowl were pinched 4-1/2", and chopped seven, bringing the dash down inside the body, and allowing a subtle transition from the belt line to the dash. The track nose was sectioned 4-1/2" and the lower half narrowed 3/4". The bed was narrowed about four inches.
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Man, what an interesting project, can't wait to follow this one.

Are you having a controller for all that electrical power custom made? I've done some work on hybrid vehicle systems at 280V and even with all their safe power down procedures, I still get a little nervous. Nothing to mess around with.

How hard would it be to convert that motor to a generator for the battery on braking like a hybrid?........I'd guess you'd have to tie it into the hydraulic brake system. On a hybrid the hydraulic brakes are electrically controlled.

Anyway, killer project, good luck with it!

This is all kinds of bad ass, would be cool to beat a Tesla and I see plenty of them around here :D

interesting,nice detail;)

Thanks guys! I can't wait to get further into the build to share some of the little details of the project.


Yeah, these voltage levels demand respect. I grew up in a carpentry/light construction family and working on 110 & 220 live was second nature, but the idea of 300-400 volts gets your attention.

There is one controller currently available, called a Zilla, that is what all the fastest EV racers are using. The best version of it will do 360-375v/2000amps, but production has been on-again/off-again. There's a company in Florida that has been toying with the idea of building a real monster of a race controller, but no firm commitments from them yet. I was actually in talks with them about having the first one on this project (their idea), but am not really sure what's going on with that. Having a custom piece built is always an option.


My motor can actually do regen, but none of the current medium and high power controllers have this feature. It's ridiculously complicated to accomplish with the type of DC motor the racers are using, and motors like mine have to have a controller custom programmed for them. I have some tricks up my sleeve, using two separate controllers, and if that doesn't work I will eventually switch to the standard series-wound DC motor and a conventional controller. That would mean no regen. If my ideas actually worked, it would be theoretically possible for me to have regen with this separately-excited (SepEx) motor. Only time will tell...

It's really simple in principle. The motor becomes a generator when you put your foot on the brakes and, depending on how much regen you have set, size of the motor, size/rate/capacity of the battery pack, it can just add a little boost to the braking power or pull you to a halt like a parachute opened. It's all electronic, no hydraulics.


More to come... :cool:

Nice Go-Kart dude!

EEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA
:cheers: :woot:

Thanks Greg! :thumbsup: And, thanks for helping me remember what the point of building a hot rod is. :cheers:

Hi Todd,
Nice to see that you made it over here. I haven't been on the EV forum in a long while... I forgot about your ride since my EV p/u -rod got scrapped. Refresh my memory- was that a Fiero front suspension?
Thanks!

Hey John!

I've actually been lurking here way before I ever heard of the DIY forums, and thought I had already started a thread here when it was still slated to be a gas-powered project. When I searched for it I couldn't find it, so I started a new one, emphasizing the electric drive plans.

Yup, that's the lowly 1st gen Pontiac Fiero front suspension. It's hard to explain why I chose it, but it will become easier to show when I get around to modifying it. Ditto for most of the design concepts that are at the heart of the project. I haven't scratched the surface of them yet. My real reason for choosing the electric motor was because it makes some of my ideas possible, like the ultra-low profile. I found out all the other good stuff it offers later. :)

Very cool....:thumbsup: gonna be keeping my eye on this one....

John

Wow, thanks! :D Considering the level of your build, that's a nice compliment. I will try to not disappoint...

I'm working on a new PhotoChop of the front view, based on one of the last pics I posted. I had to know whether the suspension fairings are going to work before going any further. The process to create them, and the hood, will be pretty neat. The dimensions will be roughed out in full scale, for one half, then CAD models created, then foam plugs cut, and composite lay-ups. I'm doing the first versions as moldless construction because I figure they'll probably go through a few subtle changes as the body is dialed in. Molds, at this point, would be a waste.

That rendering and more build pics coming. I want to see if you guys like the fairings.