Easy hp upgrades for stock LS1?
 

Looking for some input. I'm in the middle of an LS swap. Donor car is an '02 SS Z28 LS1 6 speed. I'm using everything from the Camaro, harness, column, and so on. I'm wondering if I should do some minimal HP upgrades before I do the final install.

Here's where I'm at. I don't want to dump much money into the upgrades, I've already spent a bunch on suspension, donor and everything else. I also don't want to sacrifice MPG as this will be a daily driver. I am fairly capable as I've rebuilt a few motors in my day but I don't want to get into a time consuming tear down. I am not computer savy and there's not many shops around here that will work on customs. I do not have the means or knowledge of programing the LS computer myself.

If I change to long tube headers and delete the cats, will that require a reprogram of the computer? I know cold air flow is important. Is there a cam package that would increase hp without sacrificing anything else?

Thanks guys, this is a great forum.

Gene

You will need the computer looked at no matter what (to delete vats, second O2 sensors etc). I would suggest in your case a mail order tune and a 224 type cam, which is extremely common. Headers etc all add more but know what you will have before getting a tune.

I guess that all depends too. This may sound crazy but I am using EVERYTHING from the Camaro. I'll have working ABS, cruise, air, traction control and so on, therefore I had not planned on deleting much except the airbags.

A mail order tune? Can you explain? How much can one expect to gain from a cam package, long tube headers.... I would like to get to about 400 hp.
Thanks.

You send your computer to someone and detail the modifications and they load a tune for that setup and send it back. A cam + headers would probably be 450+ hp at the crank.

cam and headers easy 400 hp. i would sugest you calling Thunder racing or texas speed. when you buy a custom cam from them they can also tune your computer for the cam you purchased and necessary needs that you want done to it. be advise that swapping cam is not cheap, your going to need alot of things. give them a call its free.

Really?! A tune, cam and headers would increase the hp over 100?! Again this will be my daily driver so I would not want a radical cam and don't want to give up fuel mileage, but if that much can be gained then I would do it for sure. Total out of pocket roughly $500 for the upgrade? I will also be running 3.73 rear gears which should help as well.

Gene, I plan to do something similar to my LS2. Longtubes, cam, tuning, so I've been trying to read up on all the advice. I think 100hp is a lot to hope for without going into the heads? but easily attainable if you do go into the heads and then cam it to match. The secret to either plan is that tune. A good tuner can make the difference as much as any add on part. Sending off your ECU to a reputable tuner should be a definate part of your plan.

Jeff-

Calling JayR
 

we did a LS2 swap in his 64 Buiweck and he laid down 400hp at the rear wheels at only 5K RPM's!! - still had break in oil in it- with only a cam and computer tune-

Great info guys. I'm not looking to come up with a magic number of hp no matter what it takes to get there, just the opposite. I only want what I can get with the least amount of investment.

Like many here, I know just enough to be dangerous if you know what I mean! I've read enough to know that the capablity of these motors is incredible. I just want whatever hp gains I can get EASILY and I DON"T want to sacrifice efficiency.

That being said, I will not get into heads and would like to keep the cost of the mods around $500. Sounds like a proper tune is a no brainer, I'll plan on it. Beyond that is where this forum will make the difference. A cam package can be done for about 200? Long tube headers around $250-$300? Is a fabricated forced air system from the cowl or grill worth the effort?

Anyone ever use long tube late model F-body headers on an A body like mine?

Thanks again,

Gene

As noted, saying a cam swap implies more with a LS1 than it does with older engines. A cam package is a cam + springs & pushrods and it's about 600$. You'd probably also be in the area where you'd want to consider rod bolt swap which is 200$ (if you buy katech, ARP are cheaper but there is some debate if you need to resize the rods or not).

Long tube headers that fit your car are probably more like 500$, attempting to use anything for another car will almost certainly be a cut and rework situation.

You will see some benefit from simply having a less restrictive intake path, but I wouldn't devote dozens of hours on building something unless you care about the appearance.

Wow, I guess I'm completely off base as far as what can be done for some lower dollars. Maybe I'll save the upgrades for the next winter project.

I've been down this road twice now...

First version

00 LS1 Texas speed 233/239 cam kit. ARP rod bolts and 1 5/8 long tube headers. Th400 trans with 3200 stall conv. and a 9" with 3.25 gears. Car ran 11.95@114 and got 20mpg. Driveabilty was still great even for a driver.

Second version

07 6.0 L92 heads texas speed 229/236 cam kit. 1 7/8 headers ARP rod bolts. T56 6 speed 3.89 gears. Drove the car 650 mile round trip and got 24.2 mpg on the way home running 85-90.

All your driveabilty will all be in the tune. The parts are a lil more expensive but the power gains are worth it.

I understand that the set up you mentioned worked out well and it's great information but as I mentioned I don't have the time and resources to get that far into the motor right now. I'm doing a whole susension upgrade besides everything that's involved in the LS swap and other mods. My goal is to get the car driveable by spring or it will likely not be finished until next winter. My workload increases too much once the weather gets warm. For now, I was dreaming as many do - easy, economical bolt on performance.:morepower

On an LS1 an 02 Z06 cam is a great inexpensive choice. The tune is the kicker. Get that car on a chassis dyno with the right guy/gal and make some power.

The Z06 cam could be dropped in without having to change springs and pushrods etc? I know there is much that should be freshened but as I mentioned not the time or funds right now. Is the cam job a lot different than the traditional small block? What kind of gains could be expected? I had also read somewhere that going to an LS6 mainfold makes a difference?

Thanks

Z06 cam is smaller base circle and so it's probably good to change pushrods. The LS6 motors also came with better springs too although they are cheaper than aftermarket ones.

The cam swap itself is probably easier than traditional and the gains all depend on how streetable you want it, but suffice it to say, you can gain a lot and still be perfect on the street.

The LS6 intake is slightly better although keep in mind later (I can't recall exact years) LS1 engines came with both LS6 blocks and intakes so you may not need it.

The best thing to do overall is read ls1tech for a bit so you know what you can do and what to expect.

You are correct about the LS6 manifold, I did a bit more research directly after my last post. Initially it appears that my 02 SS Z28 donor camaro would have come with the LS6 mainfold and block. So now I need to find out "When is an LS1 an LS1 and when is it an LS6? Is it the cam/springs that make the difference....the heads...the tune....? :willy: The only thing I can say positively is that I have more research to do!:faint: I would give my right *^% to talk to the LS Jedi Master as I've spent hundreds of hours in research starting with the basics of Protouring.

The 01-02 f bodys got the LS6 intake, but a little smaller cam then the 98-00's due to the fact they had to reduce emissions because the LS6 intake did away with the EGR valve.

The last half of 2002 they ran out of LS1 blocks and just used LS6 blocks in the final f bodys. Their are no advantages of having a LS6 block over a LS1 block though, they are basically the same.

The 02-04 Z06 cam is a very cheap option for a small cam upgrade, but I would honestly wait until you have a little extra cash and put a nice cam in that will get you some ground thumping sound plus more ponies. The Z06 cam would need Z06 springs and a 7.350" pushrods too, although I think a lot of people just run the factory length (factory are 7.400).

Also be sure to check the casting number on your heads. If they are 243 you will have one of the highest factory horse power motors you could get out of a camaro (4th gen)

The LS6 had a different cam (the so called Z06 cam), heads, springs and valves.

The key thing is it is very easy to make power but it's not usually one thing you have to change, it's a couple. A cam swap implies cam+springs+pushrods, and then rod bolt change comes into play and then since you're in there, you should probably change out to a better timing chain, and lots of that requires a good tune etc.

Realistically, if you put headers on it and open up the intake a bit, you'll be not so far away from 400 crank hp that you are likely to notice it.

Well, once again a wealth of information from this forum. You've all got me thinkin' and have already helped out a ton. I will continue researching while finishing mock up and assembly prep for the chassis and LS swap. If it appears that I will have time left before to do some motor enhancements and still be on the road by spring, I will unleash a bit more power.

Thanks to all.
:thumbsup:
Gene

PCMs for less will do a tune for $250 and can reccommend combinations that they have seen work. If you change anything on the motor a retune is $50.

http://www.pcmforless.com/index.php?...d=44&Itemid=40

Thanks Guy, sounds like a great starting point no matter how many mods I do up front.

Gene

As others have said get on Ls1-tech and do some homework , also checkout the classifieds. This is were us poorboys buy our LS1 goodies.

I found used 98 LS1 motor on crigslist so I was like let's go check it out decent price at the time I thought and local. So I get there and find the motor to hve a set of stage 2 heads,LS6 intake,trick flow pushrods,comp cam few other goodies and only had 70k on it and car was wrecked and body was unrepairable. So for 2,300 I got wiring harness,pcm and engine. To top that they even had dyno sheet that proved rwhp at 423 rwhp and 392 foot pounds torque and receipts from work when parts where installed from previous owner in TX. So I scooped it up and took it home, well I am always noisy so I asked a friend that is a engine builder and asked about rebuilding it and he said it's got low miles but I dug in taking parts off and found lifter wearing slightly! So I tore it all down got ARP bolts for rods all new gaskets, new pistons,lifters,LS2 timing chain,ported oil pump etc. Swapped a timing belt job for engine build minus machine work,even got to help during build and blue print it etc. He tells me motor has more power and pcm was probably not tune right but will see in then end! I still think the 98's are good motors but some don't . Just my luck I think I got a good deal in the end!

Sounds great! Let us what the dyno results are. :yes:

just a fyi, the '01 Z06 LS6 had a smaller cam than '02-'04 LS6. it was only .525 lift while '02-'04 was .550 lift. that cam in your car with a good tune will get you close to 400 rear wheel hp. when i say a good tune that means on a local dyno with a tuner. i've seen mail order tunes range from 20-43 hp lower than a local tune on a dyno.

you should replace the push rods no matter what cam you have, stock LS1 push rods flex a lot and can even brake at high RPM.

LS1 blocks are different than LS6 blocks. only about 15% of '01 and 28% '02 camaros got a LS6 block. you can tell by the part number on the back.

1. the LS6 block has vents at the bottom of the cylinders to allow for better back pressure dissipation... the LS1 block did not have this.

2. the LS6 blocks that wound up in the f-bodies were made from the denser casting, and therefore were more prone to tolerate nitrous... the LS1 blocks were almost equally tolerant of nitrous, but were made from a less dense product run.

3. the way to tell if your block is an LS6 block is to look at the casting number at the top, back of the block and on the driver's side... the LS6 casting number is 12561168... anything else is the LS1 casting number.

good reading about the LSx engines.
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answe...0of%20power%22

if your running everything like i am and like we have already talked about then no you do not need to delete VATS in the PCM. i am not deleting it out of mine because i like the fact that i have anti-theft in my 1969 camaro and its that much harder to steal.

read up on LS1Tech.com, there is a cam only section and people put the cam they have and the power they made. a lot of good info there. if you want to keep stock valve springs you need to stay under .570 lift IIRC.

Yup, I had read before about the LS6 blocks and checked the number at that time, mine is the LS6 block. I've done a fair amount of reading in LS1Tech over the last year but I'm still a little confused. Even though it's an LS6 block, I thought it was still considered an LS1 for a number of other reasons. Are you saying it would have an LS6 cam in it as well or are you saying to stay with the later Z06 cam if I make the change? My motor came from an 02 Camaro. I believe the intake is supposed to be an LS6 as well. The heads are 241's not 243's that Fitz78ta mentioned earlier. The car was built in the second half of 02 so I'm thinking that it must have most of the later upgrades.

Thanks for the tip on the tune. From everything I've been reading the tune is most important that's for sure! When I get the thing finally fired up, I will find a dyno shop somewhere around here that can do the tune like you said. It sounds worth every penny. Meanwhile, I'll keep researching, that's for sure.

As far as the VATS, I agree, same plan. I too like the thought of the antitheft, especially with a ragtop that can be opened easier. I've got the gage 02 cluster mounted and just about have the dash set up completed. I'm pleased with the results. I moved the conv top switch to the old ignition location. The dash cluster area in the 64 will basically be blacked out - tinted glass to see the gages only, the rest dark.

By the way, I did get right steering wheel adaptor set up from Grant to work with the 02 column. I got the correct number through Steve at Madman & Co. Racing, Inc. That was a lead I got from an LS1Tech forum search. Steve was real helpful.

if you do swap a Z06 cam make sure its the later one.

you also don't have to use the stock dash if you don't want to.

here is how to wire it.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/stereo...et-gauges.html

also lets you use a standard GM 0-90 ohm fuel level sending unit.

Yah, I wanted to use the Camaro cluster for a number of reasons, that's what keep things interesting, something a little different.

I looked at the article you linked. Great info, I saved it.

Thanks

Here's a pic of the new dash set up with the Camaro cluster behind tint and the Camaro column with a Grant steering wheel. I also added a pic of the original. Not the best pics, sorry for that.

This look may not be for everyone but I like it.