How much HP is needed
 

What is the opinion of how much horse power is needed to for the ultimate PT car.

Alot :rofl:

Moving target...

Twin Turbo, All Aluminum, Big Block= 2500hp!!!

This thread is just asking for trouble. :lol:
I honestly think its only possible to build your own ultimate. Too many variables. And besides, 2000hp is not ultimate if you can only use 400 of it.

Depends on the intended use and how much the chassis can put down...

This will help.

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/images/st...on-control.jpg

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/images/st...ain-config.jpg

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/images/st...djuster-up.jpg

Scott, I'd say minimum of 600 to 650 these days. I went from 500 to 620 and thought that I was going to be intimidated by the extra horse power on the track but actually it feels pretty good. Even with the 275/40's in the rear.

I think if you want to stay normally asperated anything above 700flywheel hp is probably gonna start getting pretty lumpy and the touring portion of "PT" might be a little uncomfortable to drive. If you can afford to go force induction then the big numbers come and the driveability is still there. Most PT cars these days are tied together with frame connectors/ full frame/ and roll bar/cages so I dont believe these power levels are to much for the chassis. Be prepared to spend time learning throttle control if you go big, heck 400 to 500 wheel hp rips these tires pretty easy.

Who knows what the ultimate power is, it sure would be nice to drive one of these cars with a twin turbo Nelson engine in it.

Rich

I'd take the better driver, less weight, and balanced chassis over the hp anyday. Of course that's within reason. I have 666hp/641ftlbs and find it very managable everywhere except getting out of the hole. Of course I'm pretty used to it after 5000 miles and over a dozen races. Finch is making 600/600 approx and he won RTTC. Speedtech killed it on the road course and has approx 500. Can't say it was a huge hp track, however. Then you have Stielow that can drive and has huge power. The more power you saddle up, the better shoe you better be. All this is Road Racing only. HP doesn't mean much in Autocross and even teh shorter speed stop challenges.

I do agree with Rich. You better watch yourself in how radical you get with your combination. A great race car makes a miserable street car with iffy reliablility. It's a balancing act. One guy will argue his race car is a great street car. Everyone has different ideals and tolerance.

well
 

I dont know but maybe John Parsons/Prodigy can tell you because they have stated they are building the ultimate Pt camaro... :lol:

Tom

Isn't HP like money? When you have a certain amount, you want to have more?

:cheers:

I based my opinion on a car that Scott would be driving and we all know how Scott will be useing his car. On the same note, I think anything over 700 is over kill.

If we were to answer this question as a general hp range for all pt cars I still think 600 to 650 range is a fair number to throw out there.

Todd's car is probably around 5.3 lbs per crankshaft hp, mine is currently 8.7 lbs...........so if my car looses 1,300 lbs we're even and I'll save $4K on brakes, or if I slip 2250 lbs in his trunk I think I can take him as is. :unibrow:

I think these are all very good points.

I saw an 80K mile stock LS1/T56 combo in a 69 Camaro stay within a 2/10's of Finch at TX to finish 2nd in the Non-Vendor Class. The car weighed about 3150 lbs. The front suspension was fabbed on Scott's jig and the rear was Scott's. The driver (Kevin-millertime179) was a hell of a wheel man. Which one was it? I think it was a combo of all three. Who knows what would have happened if there would have been an extra 100 hp under the hood.

The correct answer is "More." :unibrow:

But in the real world....see previous post.

Since you asked for the ultimate car with no mention of driver skill, it's gotta be a minimum of 600 hp, probably more, and that assumes a very well set up car.

And that is probably not gonna get it done on a longer track setup (road course) or possibly even one of the longer road-course style autoX courses that pop up.

If you pinned me to a # I'd say 700.

Thank's for the good info. What are sub frame conector's and what are they used for.We haven't used them before.The only time I will be driving the car is on and off the trailer.I think my son Kevin will see most of the seat time since he is the one with the SCCA GT1 license.

:lol:

I knew that hp question was odd coming from you :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Dont you have better things to do aside from stirring the pot :D :D :D

Not trying to stir the pot.Just started working on the next project that will come after the 72 camaro.Started designing the suspension for that car.So I need to plan on how much HP we will be needing.Kevin and I are wanting to build a real nice car that will run close to the front runner's at these event's.:thumbsup:

Woops, my bad :_paranoid What year car? Real nice PT or race car? You've installed subframe connectors before right? Subframe connectors will take some of the flex out of the body.

Quote from Mark Donahue
 

A quote from one of my heroes Mark Donahue-

The Porsche 917-30, whose 1100 horsepower, the SCCA bitched, was killing In the Can-Am series. Donohue disagreed. “We’re far from having too much horsepower,” he asserted. “My definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.”

If you can control it is not too much HP. I would say there is a point of diminishing returns. The new blower engines are like big DC electric motors. Torque on demand. I have driven big twin turbo engine on tracks and the turbo lag can be tricky. I really like the power delivery of my blown 427. It is very linear and tractable.

I modeled another 100 HP in my car and was only worth 0.3 of a second at Spring Mountain Ranch due to the size of the track.

Mark

Mark, what's your car weigh in at?

:thumbsup: Curb weight is 3450 lbs. It has A/C, sound deading, sound system and is a good cruiser :thumbsup:


Mark

With all due respect,

Keep in mind, I dont think many of us could hold a candle to Mark Donhue's skills. On the same note, tracks like Thunderhill love the high horse power but tracks like Infineon and Buttonwillow would probably fare better with less.

Before anybody decides to go big horsepower, it would be best to be sure you are effectively using all hp that you currently have.

It takes a lot of time and tuning to get our cars to drive effectively on a road course and then you have the other variables such as tires and aero.

It should be a real nice (PT/racecar.)I do know what sub frame conector's are.I have seen photo's of them being installed on DSE's web site.There coverage is great.

DSE makes a great set of subframe connectors. I really like the straight through design. I bet this next car is going to be very cool. When you going to spill the beans?

I honestly believe an LS2 with a cam headers and a tune from speartech would be capable of being pretty competitive if you really wheeled the car hard. although the LSX 454 or LS9 would be really cool an LS2 with top end work and headers would be capable and help keep the cost down.

wheelman
 

with you driving i think thats all it would take..lil warm ls2 :thumbsup:

Tom

Scott---I'm not giving you back the crossmember--that's the thing that goes between the subframe rails and just in front of the subframe connectors, which are underneath the floorboards of the car which supports the rear most portion of the transmission.

:lol:

Thanks again man--good luck on the project. Will be watching for pics---those are the images you get from a point and click shutter device that preserves a moment in time which most women put in a thing called scap books (also some use these pics to make a living at various car magazines and are also members here).

Doug

Doug,I sure hope you don't start a thread about how much I charge to ship the crossmember to you. Then I might have gripe about the fact that you over paid me when you sent the payment.As for photo's of my project's.When I take photo's of my project's everytime the blast of powder go's off it cover's the car with black sute and then I have to stop and dust it off before I can shoot another photo.And I never get that black hood pulled over my head in time and always get a flash in my eye's.Then try scaning those hugh black & white shot's you have to let them dry before you can scan them and down load them.I am headed over the local KIA dealership to see some quality sub frame conector's and how they are installed.:lol:

Well I was joking.... I always liked that quote from Donahue. He was one of the reasons I got an engineering degree.

My second favorite quote is from Enzo Ferrari is “aerodynamics are for people who can’t build engines”

But, back to the question asked,

In the era of LS engines:

300 HP is very easy and cheap
400 HP is easy and relatively inexpensive
500 HP is fairly easy but more expensive
600 HP is fairly easy but even more expensive and you are starting to get more complicated and near the limit of stock parts
> 700 HP is very expensive and impacts all the systems of the car - fuel pumps, cooling, clutches, transmissions, etc......

My car has right at 750 HP as installed in the car. I have had to do a lot of integration work to get everything to work and stay cool. I can now do a 20 min. track session without anything overheating. But it was not easy.

I have learned more about driving by driving my 177 HP Solstice than driving these over power muscle cars. But its no fun to cruise Woodward in a 177 HP car.

If you are starting out I would suggest a LS2-3 with a cam to get you about 450 - 500 HP. Get a good cooling system, chassis, brakes, tires and fuel system and go have fun.

We are all doing this to have fun. It is no fun to go to the track and have your car break or go off. Build a nice car with a reliable drive train and go to the track and learn from the bottom up. Take a buddy you can learn from that will show you the line and technique. When I started I read every book I could on driving technique and just went to the track.

Another thing to remember is at big track with big power comes big speed which can lead to big accidents. Most of our “Pro-Touring” events are at tracks with moderate speed. So big power is not a major advantage. :lateral:


http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q.../IMG_6903x.jpg


Stielow :rofl:

Great quote Gae. Reality is test and tune and find out what you and your car can handle. I'm starting w ~ 550 and that'll be enough until I know I need more. I'm also not building a tube frame race car, so aero will hit the wall (no vents, no splitter/extra downforce, no undercar stuff) and I'll be limited to an earthly number (<700).

Now the next car...hmmmm :yes:

My new screensaver, awesome shot! :thumbsup:

Woodward... Reminds me of a story about crossing the street... :lol:






Great pic.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/q.../IMG_6903x.jpg

Thank's Mark.You gave me the answer I was looking for.We all know you need a good stiff chassis w/sub frame conector's,Roll cage,or a qualtiy chassis.I just hate when you ask a question and folk's start talking at you and giving answer's that we already know.Thank's Mark.:thumbsup:Scott M.

I would agree.. I make just under 600 rwhp and it comes in handy at times.

But that car has to be able to put it down.. on some cars the right number is 500.. or 400.. Just depends.

Today I needed about 75hp to run the local SCCA event. :unibrow: