Anyone using E85
 

I have a Subaru STI and on the forums for those cars there are some people turning out really high hp numbers by switching over to E85.

They also get larger fuel pumps, and really big injectors. Then with the right tune they crank out more hp with less boost, and if they turn the boost up they really crank out more hp.

I myself will be doing it with my STI. on 91+methanol I made 374awhp, but with E85 I'm hoping to hit mid 400's!

I was wondering if that was also a common trend among the classic cars? I haven't seen much of it on here.

I am considering it and have been closely watching the list of E85 stations in Northern California... it has saturated my area decently but not quite enough for me to convert. I would really like to do this... 105 octane for $3.30 a gallon sounds nice right now. :thumbsup:

Yep...been running it about a year or so on a twin turbo 570" bbc. Honestly, I haven't really pushed the tune to take advantage of it (more timing or boost). It's reasonably priced and offers up plenty of "head room" for saftey sake if vs pump gas. We run non-intercooled although have water/meth injection so...advantage goes to the cooler air charge affects aswell.

Nice, Are there still benefits to running E85 on a naturally aspirated build?

Absolutely. It's really 2 parts of analysis in my mind... one is the octane benefit (105 vs 91 for us in Calif). But then it does consume more fuel apples to apples compared to pump gas, but I don't know about you... I would not care if my MPG went from the current 10 down to 7 or 8. I'll take the ability to tune for more power based on the 105 octane rating.

isn't that 105 rating not a minimum like regular fuels numbers are?

Good point Flash, Thanks for your input.

Don't know what part of Norcal you are in but there are a lot more E85 stations up there than down here. I'm in Orange County, and there are no stations close by :mad:

From my research you definitely have to be careful of what exactly you are buying and where you are buying the E85. It can vary but 105 octane is attainable from what I've read -- like anything, buyer beware, and you have to do your research. I've seen you can get as low as 95-96 octane and as high as 105. You can also buy in drums if you'd like, which is what my buddy back in South Dakota does with his converted race car. He pays like $2/gallon and gained 3 tenths in his 10 second drag car - no other changes.

105 octane is a very common myth for E85. E85/Ethanol is not 105 Octane. it is actually using 93-95 octane. Any quotes of 105 octane are based on an "interpretive" method of labeling octane based on the blending ratio of E85 - and NOT an actual octane measurement. It behaves differently, allowing a cooler fuel burn which sometimes results in similar effects such as you would get with high octane gasoline, but it is not 105 octane. If you're running wideband, it also requires a far far richer A/F ratio than gasoline. Almost 50% richer. General guidelines for gasoline are around 14:1. E85 is around 9:1.

By itself running E85 does not make more power. It actually makes less. You can sometimes however increase compression, etc with ethanol/alcohol to make more power. Typically that involves boost.

A recent engine builder shootout using E85 to build the highest power output naturally aspirated engines resulted in those engines producing less power than similar gas engines.

That is funny and exactly opposite to what we have found here on the dyno. On one test we switched from C12 to E85 from the station across the street and found 25hp with no changes to the timing. I love the stuff because the jetting is more stable, when you find peak power and add more fuel it usually does not drop in power for several jet sizes then if you set the engine up to run at the middle of the jet spread it will not be effected by outside temp as gas is.

For me there is no down side for E85, it is a no brainer. You did touch on A/F for E85 and gas but are off on the numbers a little.

Air/Fuel Ratio Gasoline E85
Stoichiometric 14.7:1 9.7:1
Max power 12.5:1 6.9:1
Max poower 13.2:1 8.4:1

Most A/F gages also read in Lambda and that is the scale you should be using either anything other than Gas.

For the A/F, those were just general off the cuff numbers. All A/F wideband are Lambda - often presented as something else but the measurements are always Lambda to start with. Keep in mind that for example, 14.7:1 will not necessarily yield the most power for a gas engine. Those again are generalizations - which is why I stated "around" certain numbers.

I would encourage anyone interested to really read up rather than depending on one or two peoples "personal stories". In my experience and until I see differently, for non-boosted motors, E85 is not a solution. If somebody picked up power by doing nothing but switching to E85, they had a poorly setup motor to start with.

In build-off contests including those specifically targeted at ethanol and E85 engines, there has yet to be a single engine built (non-boosted) that equals a similar displacement gas engine build of similar design and "category".

E85/Ethanol/Alcohol do provide definite benefits for boosted applications.

As you might have realized, I am a very big critic of Ethanol. I find very little positive to say about it. Yes, it has some advantages, but they are massively outweighed by all the down sides- IMHO. And that doesn't even get into the fact that it's a total loser from a practical sense - AND that it can really cause issues. Ever wonder why marine fuel does not contain ethanol?

Where does your buddy buy his ethanol?

Both at the pump and in drums... I think mostly drums though. I talked to him about this in December when I was there when he said about $2/gal.

What company does he prefer to order from?

I will try to find out for you.

Any chance you talked to your friend?

I got a message out to him.

You will have to put a much bigger fuel cell or a gas tank in the car.
A working Fuel gage would also help alot. especially if you continue to drive the car to events.

How many fuel stops did you make on your trip to Ironworks and to Eltoro?

Well more importantly I will need more E85 stations to saturate Calif before I consider moving forward.... it's a backburner idea for now most def.

My 16 gal cell is about as big as I'd want in this car. I'm trying to lose weight not gain! :D

We made 1 stop from Gilroy to Ironworks, and then 1 more after the grapevine. My current range is about 130-150 miles I'd say.

I think the sending unit is bad in mine as it's never worked since I acquired it.

Did your buddy get back to you?

We built a Supra that puts down 1060ish on E85.

A couple of problems to consider:
The one station in the area that carried it stopped selling it. He stopped selling it because of the wear and tear on his equipment.

The same goes for the car. There are no Ethonol "approved" lines. Well there were not a few years back when we built that supra. Regular fuel line works but it is soem nasty stuff and regular maintenence or monitoring is suggested.
The main thin we found is that fitting started to seap within 6 months and the first lines we made became gummy inside. So we made new ones of course.

The other issue is that there was ABSOLUTLY no consistency with the ethonol content of the fuel. It would be as low as E-70 and upwards from there. That can wreck havoc on a tune.

Summit has fuel lines compatible with Ethanol.

I've seen disasters with this on people putting E85 into daily drivers that were not built for it. The problem is coming from damage to the fuel delivery system - not the engine.

As the price goes up on fuel, more people try to sneak E85 in their daily driver to save a few bucks.

E85 attracts moisture and will corrode your lines, injectors, pump - etc.

In an old hotrod with a metal tank, steel lines, etc, you are asking for trouble unless you upgrade.

With you on 50% more fuel flow which makes it hardly worth it unless it is 2/3 the price of hi octane. But it is a lot more knock resistant than the highest rated gas I can get (95).

Been running it for almost 3 years in a 68 Camaro with LS7. Ricks tank but regular fuel lines even with bare steel in them and no issues.

More power? There is no traction below 4th gear so hard to measure :).

It is very clean, cleaner than gas by most measurements, but is way over on formaldehyde.

:cheers:

If you're running a boosted application and you're already fuel injected, you can always set up the system with a fuel composition sensor and just dial the boost back when you don't have access to E85. I know White Racing and Marine has the ability to set up FAST, BS3 and Accel to work with flex fuel. I'm sure they're not the only ones around with the capability.

I wonder what the OEM do differnetly (if anything) on the lines and other parts for the flex fuel vehicles to make them Ethanol compatible.