Scott Mock's rear suspension
 

I got one of Scott Mock's prototype rear suspensions. This is the same suspension that is under Kevin Miller's 69 Camaro that has been 2/10ths behind Brian Finch at two Good Guys events. Reasonably and priced and very well made.

Included are the following. Upper shock mount, lower shock mount brackets that attach to the bars, panhard bar w/ end links, panhard bar upper frame mount w/ tube gusset and 2 lower bars with johnny joints. The pictures below don't show the u-bolts and spring pad mounts that are included.

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/t...ns/SMREAR4.jpg

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/t...ns/SMREAR2.jpg

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/t...ns/SMREAR1.jpg

I didn't know Scott was throwing these rear suspension packages together. Are you selling them for him? Do they come with directions or recommended mounting dimensions?

No, not selling them, I just wanted something that was easy to install that would work on the street, drag strip and occasional autocross. Scott told me what to do as far as the install goes. It's really easy. the hardest part for me will be the time to do it.

Hope to see you post the install. I really like Scotts suspension stuff. He cant drive for sh*% but he sure can build them, lol. Just kidding Scott. Just razzin' ya!! :P

No I am not the fastest driver on the forum.But my son Kevin is knocking on the that door right now.With a little bit better equipment He will be the Man w/the target on his back.Jimmy Johnson has Chad Kanus,Kevin has me:thumbsup: .Kevin's 69 runs a bone stock 98 LS1 w/80k & non/ajustable QA1's.So w/ some New Ride-Tech triple ajustable Coil over's we are hoping we can knock a little more off his AutoX time's.

Yup, Kevin is fast and he's lucky to have you. You build one hell of a race car Scott. If I wasn't so hell bent on keeping my rear leaf's I'd definitely be using your rear set up. :thumbsup:

Showing my ignorance here, but can someone explain this setup to me? I presume from these pictures that there is no 3rd or 4th link, just the 2 bars that are attaching at the stock mounting pads on the rear axle? I'm having a little bit of a hard time picturing how that will all work without the other pieces that mount there. Or from another perspective, if I do understand how it works, it seems like there would be a lot of forces at unusual angles relative to how a stock leaf setup would attach that would need reinforcing at the axle housing (which perhaps is what some of the small pieces are for).

Anyway, instead of asking lots of questions, is there another thread where there are pictures of this setup installed or described somewhere that I've missed?

Thanx!

I think you nailed it... basically a ladder bar that bolts to the stock perches and the front leaf spring eye bolt.

Thanx. My understanding of a ladder bar is that there are 2 mount points per side though, one above and one below the axle. I believe the 2 points allow adjustment of pinion angle, but I'm not sure it would change the forces applied to the axle housing. Well, except that each point would primarily see forces in 1 direction, where in this case, the mount point will see forces in both accel and decel?

Interesting idea, and I'm surprised we haven't see it before (unless I just missed it) given that it would appear to greatly simplify the installation. What are the limitations of this setup then?

Unless I'm mistaken, it is essentially as version of the truck-arm type suspension.

I'm thinking there needs to be a 3rd link attatched to the top of the diff housing

The truck arm set up typically is triangulated and mounts around the transmission mount area

I am familiar with a typical truck-arm setup, and this setup essentially constrains the motion of the rear axle in the same way as a truck arm (or ladder bar for that matter). The way they mount to the axle is more reminiscent of a truck-arm to me than a ladder bar.

Anyway, I was just trying to make another analogy for folks to visualize.

The "trail-arms" or whatever you want to call them will control both the forward motion and the rotational motion of the rear axle. They will be in tension/compression and also experience a bending moment.

Could the pinion angle simply not be adjustable. Seeing that it just bolts to the stock spring perches, this is most likely the case. Would the pinion angle have to be adjustable for a ladder bar?

Im far from being a suspension expert or even technically inclined enough to understand half there is to know about it, but I, like many others here have been lead to believe that a ladder bar suspension was a no-no for serious cornering. This obviously works on this car seeing the results... but how?

The pinion angle in this case would have to be adjusted with angled shims. - - I think, unless I missed something.

I agree that I think angled shims would be required for pinion angle adjustments. And I have the exact same impression of a ladder bar setup, that's why I thought this might be something different that I wasn't seeing?

Perhaps Scott can chime in and clear it all up for me (us). :)

Once pinion angle has been determined it shouldnt need to be adjusted...
This suspension was designed as a very lost cost alternative for the average joe (like me) who cant afford detroit speed or ride tech equipment. It obviously works because Kevin (millertime179) has shown this at goodguys dallas and goodguys nashville where he was only 2 TENTHS of a second slower than Brian Finch! Apples to Apples this set up works!

Bryce

This is ladder bar/truck arm system or a combination of both. The pinion angle is set at install. It comes with new modified spring perches that need to be welded to the axle.

I knew there would be some questions about it and if it would work or not and that's ok. For me, it will work just fine.
I have taken a ride with Kevin in his 69 that has the same set up except his has poly bushings up front instead of the johnny joints. The car also has the least expensive coilover shocks on the market. The car plants itself very well in the corners and comes out smooth. Now, Kevin is a heck of a driver, and that has been proven at the two autoX events that he has entered in his car but, it does work and for the price it is hard to beat.

This is a rear suspension I used on my very first 69 camaro build back in 2004.I was on a very tight budget.It worked very well.When my son Kevin started his 69 camaro build a few years ago he also needed something that would work for his tight budget also.I have given it a lot of thought and the system could be redsigned too work even better and be very ajustable but then it would not be low cost any more.I had really never thought about building this for resale until we were at dallas (GG) this year and Shannon said he thought folks would be interested in it because it worked so well and didn't cost alot.And would be very easy to install w/o any trunk pan cutting.So far only 2 Drivers have been faster than Kevin at GoodGuy's.And they are running the best (Suspeneion) the world has to offer.Pinion angle can be ajusted when the spring perches are welded to the rear end.:thumbsup:

So I'm guessing at this point no third link on top of diff housing?

Scott, can you put together some numbers just so we can get an idea of cost?

Thanx Scott... Hopefully I didn't come across as questioning its performance, just trying to understand how it worked. :cheers:

The complete kit less coil over's will sell for around $750.00w/ johnny joint's.W/Poly bushing's around $650.00 less coil over's.It should take around 3hours or less to install if your housing is free of the old spring perch's.I am going to wait for Shannon to post install photo's before I gear up and start building these unit's.These are for the car guy that want's to run 335's out back and does not want to spend a lot money.This set up work's really good,but it is not the level of a DSE 4link set up.It will need around a 15.250 extended lenght coil over w/ around a #225 or #250 spring in a 1st. gen camaro.Thank's for looking and chiming in.I am just trying to fill a need in the market place for good componet's that are reasonably priced.I am in no way comparing my product's to that of DSE or AME.They great company's and build awesome product's that are Engineered and built very well.:lateral:

Thanks Scott. Dont under sell yourself, I think you have a great instinct for this stuff. :thumbsup:

Hay Scott, What about ride hight?? I'm looking to go with drop leafs BUT I think I may have found a better idea!!

The ride ht. is fully ajustable w/ajustable mount's and also using your coil over's.Check out Kevin's (Millertime179) build thread.He could go even lower w/the ride ht. on his camaro.:thumbsup:If you look at the photo's Shannon posted you can see the lower shock mount's next to the lower control link's.

I hope my comments weren't taken as being related to the performance of the suspension. I have no reference to comment on that. I was just trying to explain the functionality of it and use some analogies to the truck arm etc. to help people visualize how these work.

I didn't make it to Nashville Goodguys, but my Dad told me the Kevin was getting after it in the AutoX.

Very cool scott! I like the different approach.

There are some limtations w/this set up.Kevin has done very well running this set up aginsn't
Kyle Tucker and Brian Finch.His driving ability's make this system look very good.Like I said if a car builder is looking for the best set up out there then look towards the DSE 4 link or Ride Tech's 4 bar .This is a very simple set up that can be installed quickly w/o alot of fab skills or equipment.Kevin and I are working on improving his camaro w/Some Triple ajustable shocks from Ride Tech and some rear suspension tweaks.He also needs about 300 more horse power.For about twice the investment a car builder can get a Ride tech 4 bar system that works very well.I will have Kevin put his camaro up on the lift and we will take some photo's of the suspension installed on his car.This way everybody can get an idea how everything go's togather.Thank's For looking at our work and comenting.Scott M.:thumbsup:

what are the limitations? Looks like a very simple well designed system that has alot of poeple(including me) very interested. The price seems very fair to me, considering the alternatives that are currently out there. I am leaning towards getting one of these for my car very soon.

The limitation's are Kevin is going about as fast as the system will let him go.If we want to step up and really be faster than Brian Finch,Kyle Tucker,Mark Steliow,We a rear suspension that offer's less Roll Bind,which inturn will let Kevin's camaro keep the inside tire planted a little better on the real tight corner's.:thumbsup:

How does this system handle real world driving? Steep driveways and such? My Dad has been looking at building a suspension around these and I've been talking him out of it until now.

http://autofabcart.net/images/produc...l/HPIM0088.JPG

Install Pics
 

I know I am very late commenting on this,but I'm still looking for suspension ideas.So far I've been contemplating a torque arm setup or 3 link.I just don't think the 3 link is the way to go for me as there are too many variables in setting one up.Seems like you're on to something with the simplicity.Any installed pics yet?

This system would turn your rear axle housing into a huge anti-roll bar placing a LOT of stress on the housing perches & up-down forces on the Johnny Joints which is not the best way to apply load to them, it should be push-pull, but they are probably beefy enough to not bend. Roll-bind would be a big issue with this design. When the car rolls in a turn, one front eye goes up, the other down, trying to twist the axle housing. I really hate to say anything negative about someone's product that they have worked hard to produce. I nearly didn't post this but felt I had to put it out there.
David

David your totally correct, that is alot of the reason we took it out of my camaro. We knew it would have alot of roll bind and if your going to drive the car hard this is not the way to go. When i built the car I didnt have much money to throw at it and thats why we went with this rather than the four link. We were going to re work the two link to fix the binding issues because it actually worked fairly well until I pushed the car hard enough it unloaded the inside rear tire (wheel hop). But we decided to go with ridetechs 4 link and i have been super happy with how it has worked in my car. For normal street driving the two link works okay but has its limitations and binding issues when driven hard. Scott and i both try to point everyone towards ridetech when asked what rear suspension to use because we have been really happy with their components and they are super nice guys.

thanks,
kevin miller

With a few more parts, a torque arm could be made. When I started autocrossing, I had home made traction bars that were clamped to the mono leaf springs at the forward ends. I had inside wheel lift & it felt nervous on higher speed corners. Eventually the right rear spring pad tore off the housing.

I drove the RideTech 48 Hour Camaro at Del Mar last weekend & I loved it!
David

thats awesome! the 48 hour camaro is a cool car and im sure its a blast to drive. hope to get the chance to meet you and mary at some events next year.

take care,
kevin miller

Kevin, You are doing Awesome and making the right steps with your car. :thumbsup:
David

Good advice
 

Thanks for clarifying some of the issues with this type of suspension.I applaud Scott for his fab abilities and his willingness to tell you the truth.I would put you Mr. Pozzi(I have too much respect for you to call you David)this question.Which suspension type would be more fitting for someone on a budget and with a somewhat limited knowledge as far as rear suspension goes, a torque arm or 3 link?

I will not be building this system anymore.While it work's OK for the street,It is not at all what you want for any type of competive driving.I have found for the money,ease of installation,The Ride Tech 4-bar system is the way to go.And if you want to step up,Go W/their rod end upgrade.While alot of folk's will tell you they really want to save money,Deep down inside they really want the best.So Buy Qualtiyfrom the start go W/ Ride Tech or DSE componet's.These two company's are the 2 that alway's show up at every event, so they are alway's around for advise on any ajustment's you might need to make.Brett V.of Ride tech/Kyle & Stacey of DSE are awesome folk's.Easy to talk to and don't mind anserwing any question's.And Their phone's are alway's anserwed when you call their business's.When you send them hard earned money,you will get the best part's they have to offer.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:Good luck. Scott Mock.

Thanks for the kind words, believe me, at home I'm no one special. Please call me David. If you want cheap & simple, use leaf springs, they don't ride as well as a link suspension due to higher unsprung weight, but handle well. I like a rubber front eye bushing, poly rear eye bushing & Delrin (Acetal) bushing in the rear frame for best support. At some point you want wider tires & have to go to mini tubs then money spent relocating the leaf springs is best spent on switching to a link suspension. I think the Ride Tech Rear suspension (called Airbar with coil overs) is the easiest to install & it works great. A torque arm like Speed Tech is a bit more to install but not too big a deal. The new Hotchkis 3 link will be the same amount of work to install as the Ride Tech. & has loads of adjustment available. It does require cutting a top link hole in the rear seat area next to the driveshaft tunnel. The DSE Quadralink requires more cutting & welding, but is well proven.
David