What do you do when your product is knocked off?
 

I think that we have kept quiet long enough. We would like everyone to know that Ringbrothers DID bring the first billet hood hinges to the market. Once they were quickly knocked off Mike and Jim came out with a new design to set us apart for all of the copies on the market. In NO WAY are we private labeling for the company below that blatenly ripped off our design not once but twice.

Mike and Jim are car builders first - so they know what it takes to make a product that works. When you are looking for hood hinges please keep in mind that development and prototyping cost a lot of money - reverse engineering is little to no cost.
I guess we should feel honored that someone would copy EXACTLY what we design (twice) becuase they can't come up with it on their own. The only problem is I get calls weekly of not daily that the knock off's product doesn't work. Please support original innovators in the industry.
http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/u...erKnockOff.jpg

Yeah, this is really very sad. Unfortunately, when I saw Fesler's "new" product release I thought, hmmmm, those look exactly like the RingBros design.

I don't have any advice for you guys, but can say that awareness of these issues will always drive my purchasing decisions.

#1 is you call your lawyer.... and then you'll find out, that in order to have protected your design, you will have had to do many different steps BEFOREHAND.

The problem with stuff like this is that most people don't spend the money, time, and effort it takes to protect their designs in advance of product release... and then you're fair game for being knocked off.

Not to stir the pot...but I am just a hobby builder. Most of my projects I have sold before completion for lack of funds. I did build a 1968 and a 1969 camaro in which I used Ring Brothers hood hinges. RB's is first class all the way, as people, a business, manufacturers and car builders. In my 5 or 6 short years in this hobbly I had heard a lot of negative things about the company you are referring to. Both in quality and the fact that many of thier products were rip-offs such as the majority of thier frist gen camaro products. Other than what I have heard, I have no first hand knowledge of Fesler's products, thier marketing or business strategies. I do know that many of their products do appear to have come along after other companies have done the R&D and made these products popular to the public.

My current 1967 Chevelle Police Tribute Car has and will have Ring Brothers products all over it, including hood hinges, door handles, door strikers, hood adjusters, hood pins and hopefully the new touch start. I will continue to support Ring Brothers and thier innovative designs.

You mean R&D (Rip off and Duplicat) And we wonder why China keeps growing. (No disrespect to the nation of China)

Well the "Other Brand's" are not quite the same. The Ring Brothers hinges are not as sloppy as the "Others Brand". I personally don't like my hinges to be sloppy so I now buy my hinges from the Ring Brothers, I had a customer supply the other brand and we had to throw them away since they were so sloppy.

Unless you like your hinges like your sloppy Joe sandwiches, Buy Ring Brothers....

Ill tell what they did in the old days, it looks something like this :beathorse

Unfortunately theres not much that can be done with out legal protection. All I can tell you is you guys are the best, you got my purchase on your hardware and they didn't. Hopefully people will relize who has the best quality and the sale will come to you as a result.

Rich

this is why DSE puts patent on alot of the stuff they make.

I'm a designer and I have a couple design patents. Let me start off by telling you The Ringbrother hinge and the Fesler hinge are similiar. They are not a duplicate.

Ringbrothers hinge is an air frame design. The cut outs are all the way thru. The Fesler ones aren't they are just pockets. That alone is enough of a difference to state they didn't copy your design.

It stings a bit I know. You really have to move on and continue to come out with new products and build your brand up. You have to market your hinge as the First billet hinge and sell it as better quality than the competitors.

That's what I was thinking the other day too. Unfortunately, not everyone knows, who is actually creating the innovative products. Case in point, at SEMA last year, one of your competitor in question won a GM design award for "most innovative products."

I'm curious Greg, if the Ring Brothers had taken the time to protect their hinge design prior to release, would it matter in a situation like this? I've heard from a few small companies around here that the costs generally don't outweigh the benefits because if the design is changed 10 percent or so by the competitor, then it is fair game. In this case, the new hinges aren't completely "air-framed." Also, I kept thinking that there was a difference in the strut mounting position, but then I noticed both are now horizontal. I can't even keep up with who is being innovative anymore :willy:

Matt

If I were a photographer, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and started pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.

If I were a artist creating renderings, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and starting pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.

If I were a wheel designer, and somebody blatantly photocopied my work and started pumping it out for a profit, I'd be PISSED.



This is no different. Fesler did nothing but photocopy a Ringbrothers product and start pumping it out the door. Ringbrothers have every right to be PISSED.

Your quality parts and customer service will win in the end.
Good luck with this. :cheers:

We ONLY use Ring Brothers Hinges because along with a Quality Product, you get Quality Customer Service !!!
FYI.... While in Columbus we noticed our hood was not fitting as it should. Mike jumped in, brought me in the trailer and searched thru boxes for a "softer" piston that would work perfectly. Then on top of that, he walked over to the car in the middle of his BUSY day to check it out and see how I made out.
THATS TOP NOTCH SERVICE RIGHT THERE !!!!:thumbsup:

I'll probably get flamed for this but this is what I posted over on the other site:

I've spent over 30 years in product development/engineering and although it seems unfair this is just normal product life cycle. When you first introduce something new and innovative profits and margins are high (at least they should be). Eventually competition comes on board followed by price erosion as each tries to maintain/gain market share. The best way to survive is to find lower cost ways to manufacture the product to help maintain margins. That and moving on to the next great new idea which starts the cycle all over again. In essence this is what you did when you introduced your geometric version. No one can expect to have a market all to themselves forever. Sooner or later someone notices your success and wants a share.

I know this is not what you are wanting to hear but this has been my experience/observation.

Don

Don, this isn't flaming you or argueing your excellent points, but rather my take on it...

This is no different than if I took a Hermance Design rendering, changed the color, added my logo, then started selling it. Just looking at it, you know it's a Hermance product. In this case, Fesler changed one design element, added his logo, then started selling it.

Don- I hope no one flames you (not sure what that means). We do understand the process this was just too much of a sting to not say anything. I don't want this to be a hateful thing. I just want for once to be clear on who is who and what is what. I wanted to say it many times before but the boy's would have fired me.

Staci

Meaning that he will get piled on for offering a different view/opinion. (I like differing views, that's how we learn. We certainly can't go through life with blinders on). :)

You can be pissed. However pictures and art work is totally different.

You brought up a perfect situation. There are a ton of wheel manufacturers out there and they all have similar wheel designs. Some of them are almost exact copies of each other. Its just part of doing business.

I go to Sema every year. I walk the entire show, up and down every row, every building. Looking for new trends, see what competitors are doing, to help the company I work for to stay the leader in the industry. Every year I see knock offs of what we make.

I have Ringbrother, Fesler, and Marquez stuff on my car. I'm not taking sides one way or the other.

There is no question from the "Mass" production side of the house that Fesler has the market. For those that have compared their products to the innovators, whether it be hinges (Ring Bros) or tail lights (Marquez), there is no comparison when it comes down to the overall quality, fit and finish.

That just my .02

How is it different? It's still a product, not a service.

I see using a photocopier to copy 2D products the same as using a rapid prototyping scanner to copy 3D products.

be carefull staci, last time they were called out there was almost a physical fight at the marquez booth...lol unfortunatly its their M.O. and their just gonna keep doing it. They have done it to pasqual with so many many products I can't even imagine how he feels...

Good question, Matt, for which I have no answer. I would ASSume that you'd copy right/patent the design aspect of the hinge being billet... and several other more "cohesive" design elements in order to give you the broadest possible protection. Even then - I'm not sure what could be copy righted and or what that costs. My guess is - it's prohibitive. I just spent a quarter million on litigation and it was a very simple issue. The bills get real high - real fast, when it comes to "legal stuff". At some point it just isn't economically feasible.

I've been watching this thread with A LOT of interest and since Scott brought my name up in an example I'll add my $.02 for what it's worth.

What I provide is a service, I produce intangible design solutions to problems. The only product I produce currently is a print of the final design. The intellectual property is owned by myself and/or my client depending on the agreement.

There is no more difficult position to be in than a designer/artist when it comes to protecting intellectual property and art. It's a real Catch 22. 25% of my week is spent battling someone from using unauthorized art in ads, or attempting to sell multiple prints and shirts from a design I've done in the past, or a shop ripping off an innovative design element a client paid me to. All they have to do is ask and we can figure out something that is mutually beneficial.

Then again, I do like having my work viewable as marketing assets. Potential clients need to see my thought process in order to feel confident in my services. I have to hang intellectual property out in the breeze for all to see, knowing that it's going to get ripped off and I won't get credit. It happens more than I'd like to admit.

I have to be a rabid pitbull sometimes and it's incredibly frustrating. Some people are either totally ignorant to intellectual property laws or they flat out don't give a damn. They don't realize/care that this is what puts food on a designer/artist's table. They're literally stealing from my family.

That said, I'm moving into the next phase of my business plan which includes development of parts, prints and apparel. The amount of legal BS that I've been dealing with for the past 12 months is insane, but I want to be sure I'm protected from every single angle against this stuff. I know I'm not going to stop every lazy slug from ripping off something but I'll at least be able to sleep at night.

The other aspect that's helpful is communities like this where we can expose these practices to some degree. If we can shed light on the situation, I'm confident people will make the right choice when they're shopping.

Co-Muthafuken-Signed, Ben...

When I saw the advertisment, I thought they looked like duplicates. There's only but so many ways to make a taillight, but I thought the Nova taillights look alot like the Marquez one's debuted at SEMA last year too....

That's kind of what I said too. I said..."Uhh Ohhh!! They look exactly like Ring Brothers." And I knew RB hinges were on the market first.

Honestly, the other day when I saw the Fesler post I initially thought the same thing. It is true that they are different since they are still solid but similar nonetheless.

RB is top notch. I like the Fesler stuff too. The ones that frustrate me the most are the companies that don't appear to have any interest in the industry besides copying someone else's designs and making a buck off them. I guess technology makes it all to easy with machined parts these days. I won't name companies but I think we all see them in the industry. It seems to really be an issue on the performance parts side of things, e.g. intakes, blocks, etc. And now there are a few making billet pieces very similar to products from Clayton Machine, RB, Marquez and even Fesler. IMHO I don't feel that Fesler falls into the category of these others design thieving companies. However, in this case these are similar and I'd agree that RB has a point.

I remember seeing the RB hinges for quite some time then saw Fesler and the Eddie Motorsports ones. For the simple fact I know RB was the innovator, they have my business when I pull the trigger on my set. Is Fesler still a supporting vendor or still on this site at all? Perhaps they can chime in a bit here?

Got my RB hinges for the warden's Chevelle this last Wednesday. They look far better than I had hoped. A couple buddies thought that was crazy money for a decorative item, but when I layed one in their hands they went silent for a minute. lol I wouldn't run the competitive product for reasons that have nothing to do with billet.

I have mixed feelings on this deal. I have your hinges and hood pins and the quality is the cream of the crop. When somebody gets on my nerves, I hate to let them know they got under my skin. I understand why you called them out. To the casual observer, they may not realize that there is a difference in quality and the people behind the products. Unfortunately, China is probably next and you don't have a pot to piss in......

Didn't Fesler get banned from Goodguys shows?. I feel for you Mike that just sucks.

Same thing I heard. I feel bad for anyone that has their stuff, that takes years of work and money, copied. Ringbrothers are a class act.

In my opinion Mike, you guys have earned the respect of the general public and that can only help your business. We know who to go to for the best service and products. The copy cats are just going to hurt themselves in the long run. We got your back. :cheers:

What he said ^^^

According to Fesler himself, he is banned forever!

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.ph...d=197873614029

I'm surprised here. I was completely expecting Mr. Fesler to get on and make all sorts of claims about everything he's done for the Hot Rod business and do his usual "Screw You" approach when challenged in matters concerning integrity. I also heard he has been banned from Good Guys events for an "Incident" involving someone on his staff.

Trust me, I've been screwed by someone over a design "issue" and he knows who he is and the truth. Those that matter know the truth and that is all that matters now.

You RB boys are first class, something you just can't write a check for. Everyone here knows the truth.

dont worry im sure he will... he prob just has logged on yet.

I love this site!

I, for one, can completely understand the frustration you must be going through.

In my industry(clothing) the courts have ruled that any garment can be copied to a tee as long as the label doesn't denote the brand of the original. That means that I can copy any piece of clothing as long as I don't use their brand label.

I've had many graphic designs copied and used by other brands and, in the beginning, tried to sue them for copyright infringement but as long as they change some small element in the design they can claim that it is not an exact copy. It cost me a lot of money and stress only find out that I didn't have a leg to stand on and that my efforts were in vane.

As mentioned, you have to weigh whether the cost of litigating the issue is worth it in the end.

John

This thread has brought to light a very prevalent issue. Staci - you did the right thing by bringing this up (should have been done sooner but your job is also important :lol: ). You deserve a raise for bugging Mike & Jim about this matter.

We are going to commodotize this industry way too soon if this keeps happening to you and any other innovators (thank God there are still lots of them left).

Most of us know that you are the original designers and many people will support you if only for that reason. Others will stray to save $100 and unknowingly hurt the industry pioneers.

I purchased 3 Ring Brothers items and they are all first class craftsmanship with a keen eye for design. I would buy anything I needed from them again.

Tell the brothers to not be discouraged by people saying, "this is inevitable - it's not worth the investment." It is this indifference and and pursuit of instant gratification that will deteriorate this relatively new and awesome hobby of ours.

off the :soapbox: now :)

I started thinking about what you wrote Matt.
On my camaro I have the old style Ringbrothers Hinge. It has the shock pointing downward. Also my early version has an adjustable link that tie the 2 arms together (they stopped doing that) . These were the only Hinge at the time of purchase. attachment 1.

I did a search here for when Fesler announced his hinge summer of 2007 this thread.
https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10434

Looking at the pictures you can see that his hinge is more then a 10% difference. The base is different, his shock placement is different, the arms are different.

The weird thing is that now Ringbrothers changed the camaro hinge to a base and shock position that look more like the Fesler ones. attachment 2.

One reason why I can think of is cost of manufacturing. The base being smaller and the one arm being smaller.

Like I said before I have both the RB and Fesler stuff on my car. What you shouldn't do is call out someone for taking an idea when its happened the other way around also.

Billet parts is a hard business to get into and not have competitors run with your ideas. Look at the Billet motorcycle parts. Most of it is now made in China. It hasn't reached the pro-touring parts yet but it will. Ever walk the Asia market section at SEMA?

You need to market and brand yourself as the First, and having a more superior Quality than the competitors. Also to be successful you have to be first to market with new products. That way your selling as much as you can before the competition can make a similar product.