Real values on our PT cars....
 

So I have been having conversations with serveral guys about values of our cars lately. I have been doing alot of research lately because I have been looking for a nice 2nd gen Camaro to buy. I am after a nice car with great paint/body that has a LS motor, mini tubbed ect. Anyway, I have found several cars on different sites. This got me thinking about what the value of my personal PT/Muscle cars that I own. Looking around E-bay, there are some cars that are simply way too over priced.. Chris was just looking at the
'69 in Canada that the guy wanted $250k, then I saw one in Dallas for $275k.. :_paranoid.. In today's market, those numbers are going to be very hard to get. I am currently building a car at DSE with a buddy of mine that is going to be over $300k. If we decided to put it on the market right after it's done, it would be hard to get a cash buyer to pay more than $150-175k, that's being realistic. When you build a certain car, it's your personal taste. Another person may not like the color, wheel selection you chose ect. These factors make resale harder, especially on the higher price cars. Bottom line is, you build/buy what you want in your budget and enjoy the hell out of it!

Very well said! :D

Another reason to actually USE the car. You'll never recover your investment so you better enjoy it.

Amen,brother!I don't see another reason to build a car if it won't be used and abused, but that's just my opinion:_paranoid

the guys that have those up there for 275 are the ones who hear 's' from there other half and put it up for sale just to shut them up... as in... "see i put it up for sale but no one is interested"... :lol: works every time !

SW,

Well said. As you mention, I have been looking around, activley searcing for a PT car to buy. The price range for PT cars is very wide. Just look at eBay today as one example. You have a 69 Camaro, mini-tubbed, LSX motor, nice interior, etc., etc., and, it was a finalist in the GG street machine of the year contest in 09. So, it has some "history". The dealer is asking $129,000 for that car and my guess is it could be had for $120,000 or less. Then, you see that black 69 Camaro in TX. with a similar build for $275,000?!?!?! Yea OK, he is throwing in a trailer but still, that is a 110% increase over a similar car. That is a big swing. Now, the 69 Camaro from the dealer for $129,000 is pretty unique meaning personlaized. So to your point, it may be so unique that it throws off prospective buyers. I can tell you that some of the finishing touches to that car, while very cool, convinced me not to buy it.

So, at the end of the day I think anyone spending a lot of money to build a PT car should recognize that there is not a complete ROI on their build. Rather, they are buiding their dream car and they should plan to enjoy the crap out of it - either show it or drive it or both - and then be preppared for an economy-driven "market adjustment" when they are ready to sell it.

My 2 cents.

Chris

Actually, the ad states "2009 GoodGuys Muscle Car of the Year competition" as it was never a SMOY finalist.

But Muscle car of the year is for original numbers match stuff.

I think he meant to put Muscle Machine of the Year finalist. :)

A car is only worth what someone is willing to give for it. The moment you put the car on the market you set the value. Because you have to give it a price that appeals and satisfies you bottom dollar. The best way to get your money back is to build something that appeals to the most people. Price, Quality, Detail. The more of each one of these items it has, the more it takes to build and the less people that can afford the car. You can build the most appealing car on the planet but if the Quality and Detail are sky high, There might still a bunch of guys who can afford it, but how many of those that can afford the car, want it and at that price. Find guys who want a car is easy, finding guys who can afford it is a whole other game.

I know a handful of guys who have built cars and on the first outing were offered close to or more then build cost and turned it down only to sell the car for 1/3 of build cost 2 years later. I also know guys who make great money for a very appealing car if they sell it when "THAT GUY" walks up and has to have it.

I had a potential customer call and offer my current customer double his current build cost to sell his project. The Customer kind of agreed ( who would not )but his wife insanely declined to even hear the offer ( She loves this car ). The guy with all the money did not want to wait the time it takes to build the project and liked that he could name the color and have the truck in 1/3 of the the build time and still personalize the project for himself. MUST BE NICE.

I think you need to be realistic on the front end. I am building a 74 Firebird and I can't imagine that it would bring what I invest in it because it will be such a niche car. It just doesn't have the widespread appeal. I plan on keeping it around and I am building it for myself.

Sure you dont' want to buy an early first gen instead??.. will make you a deal since I know you'll drive her hard :)

But seriously.. cars ARE NOT INVESTMENTS.. they are hobbies and people need to realize that it's rare to get the money back out.

There's also the rule that something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay.

If I have a $5000 Rolex watch and the best offer I can get to sell it is $100 then guess what.. it's a $100 Rolex watch.

In other words what an owner percieves as value is fairly meaninless.

Exactly!

Ah the good old days when Penny was a infant..:D

http://fototime.com/A99EFD24EDD6BEB/orig.jpg
http://fototime.com/399C274751A1B43/orig.jpg
http://fototime.com/16872AED7CF8199/orig.jpg
http://fototime.com/B694461F4BED2C0/orig.jpg
http://fototime.com/18146E3C4BAD431/orig.jpg
http://fototime.com/60DA7BCB5AB1E6E/orig.jpg

My wife was shaking her head when I told her she had to keep he brand new BMW X5 outside because a old Chevy was taking it's spot..:D
http://fototime.com/196E8390FB35872/orig.jpg

You'll never get out of it what you have into it. You have to build a car to suit your tastes. I know that I could rebuild my same car in under 6 months for under 10 grand so I have no problems taking it out to all the events I can, and beating the hell out of it. I know that I will never sell my car ever and thats good enough for me. You can ASK whatever you want for a car, getting it is another story...

I knew Penny had a sex change. :lol:

You are right in your general analog, but using a $5k Rolex watch, or any other expensive good watch, is not a good example. They usually hold and often increase in value. Actually, a quality watch is a good example of a discretionary consumer item that can be a very good investment. :cheers:

Ok, now back to overpriced PT cars. :P

Yea, but the principal that anything is only worth what someone is willing pay is one of the great life truths. :)

What's funny is that when you look at those pictures the car looks almost the same from the outside.. flatter hood, but pretty much identical.

But every part has been changed except the cage, steering column, rearview mirrow and a couple of other widgets.. what was I thinking?

The big block sounded killer.. I think it got 4mpg.. seriously..

I'll give you $200 for the Rolex...:rofl:

I have to say Penny looked great with those wheels and a big block in him. :D(except for that drivetrain angle) That RHS LSX is bad.... Car has come a long way. I'll be ready to go heads up soon....:thumbsup:

It's actually amazing how diff the car is but how it looks the same..

Anytime on the rematch Todd, it would be fun.. and if I loose then at least it's to another Camaro :cheers:

Guess I need to finish that 502 RHS LS I was working on.. :lol:

I'm more of an Omega guy...

"But seriously.. cars ARE NOT INVESTMENTS.. they are hobbies and people need to realize that it's rare to get the money back out."
Unless you are talking stock musclecars. I have found them to be great investments. If I had only held on to all of them. A example is my old 69 L78 Camaro convert. I bought it for 15K, did a semi resto as in pulled the subframe and redid it. Drove it for years, sold it for I think 35K. Trying to do a trade to get it back but now the price is 250K..Tell me they aren't investments.

I do agree that our pro-touring cars for the most part are not good investments...but then...I think I paid around 45K when I bought the Red Witch, enjoyed it for close to 10 years, spent a bunch redoing it and then sold it for 115K. If I had not redone the car I know I would have made good money on that car. The Red Witch was not a trendy-latest gimmick car though. It still looked like a Camaro and a nice Camaro will never look out of style. It is the cars that had a ton spent on the latest fad that gets hurt the most. Not only did it cost a ton to do the latest trend, it will be out of style and those very trendy pieces will go in the deduct column when it comes time to value the car.
The Mule is probably another example of not going overboard with the latest trend. About the only billet on it is the taillights my son made for Marquez. I put them on to help my son but I know Stielow cringed. It is almost 10 years old and is probably one of the easiest cars I can sell as I still get asked about selling it. I can probably get my money out of it and I spent a bunch doing the twin turbo setup.

when I'm rich I'm going to be bugging the crap out of you to sell me that car. :yes:

None of you can have my Rolex....


:D

.....

Tight wad.

;)

The Mule and Big Red are defiantly icons in my book.

Beautiful car! I hope it gets an invite to Optima one year. :thumbsup:

God I love that car..... Charlie, it would be pretty cool to see it at Optima.

What kind of car is this Rolex you keep talking about.:_paranoidDid some one build a car using a Rolls Royce & a Lexus.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Now thats funny!!!

The Mule changed the way I look at Hot rods, cars in general, and especially the nut and bolt originals (which I still love and appreciate). That car is Iconic.

More true words have never been spoken. People get all wound up about resale and building THE perfect car, etc....I built my GTO almost 10 years ago. It is the very first car I have ever owned and unless something drastic happens I don't plan on selling it. Since it was done I have done track days, auto-crosses, dozens of trips to the drag strip, and two 4000 mile road trips. I have swapped engines, brakes, suspension components, and tackled numerous technical challenges. The point is that I've been having FUN with my car.

I've also built a couple of dirt bag RX7s with LS swaps which were awesome cars. I could drive them anywhere, run circles around Corvettes and even stock Vipers, and park them anywhere without fear of getting door dings. Those projects were loads of fun!

I don't have deep pockets to commission builds by DSE or Mark Stielow, but I love seeing them come to life, because they push the envelope and set the bar ever higher, which is good for the hobby overall.

:cheers:

Andrew

That's ok... cause it wouldn't fit my wrist any ways :rofl:

Then you have a car like Too Much that went for big money at Barrett Jackson. It only takes one guy or in this case, two.....

Last time I checked a financial advisor, they didn't have building a hot rod as an MONETARY investment option.

But its kinda hard driving or racing a mutual fund or stock.

It's all good.:cheers:

Must have been because of the name:rofl:

I suppose real value can mean different things. I think you're referring to actual monetary value on the market if you decided to sell the car. I'm never going to sell my car, so I don't think about its monetary value. I guess if you buy pre-built cars or pay people to build/enhance them then you definitely have to consider actual street value because chances are you'll sell it one day to start a new project or buy a different car(which, btw, is totally cool in my book). I had a guy in a new Gallardo convertible pull-up at a small car show in Encinitas and tell me that he has a large collection of cars and that he loved my car and wanted to buy it. I told him it wasn't for sale. He said with a smile, "Are you sure about that?". I said, "Absolutely sure", and it felt damn good to say that(and then go home and eat some Ramen noodles). It doesn't matter what he offered me, I would never sell it. I spent nearly every day of 3 years of my life taking that rust bucket apart and putting it back together new, never handing it off to anybody to do any work on it other than apply the sealer coat and blue. It basically defined(robbed me of) 3 years of my life and it's an accomplishment(rare in my life) for me that I just could never let go of. To see someone driving off with all my hard work would be a shot to the 'nads I would never recover from. So I'd say most of my car's real value to me is based on 'pride', and the preservation of my 'nads.

Building a 300K car by DSE? Wow, can't wait to see that one. :thumbsup:

I've got to agree with both Andrew and Chris about this.

I built my Pontiac for me. Not to sell it, and knowing full well that if I did want to sell it, I'd never get out of it what I put into it. So, in that regard, the "street" value is far lower than my "personal" value.

OTOH, I INSURED my ride for an amount based on what it would take for me to build it all over again. I've protected my "overall" investment, meaning that if it were stolen, I could essentially duplicate what I built down to the last nut and bolt were I to choose that. That's what insurance is for - to protect the OVERALL value so that if it is stolen, I can get "it" back in some way. Not just some equivelent kind of car. I provided massive documentation up front to my insurer so we're both on the same page. It costs me a couple hundred extra a year, but could save me tens of thousands of dollars down the rode.

So, different definitions of "value"

Hell yeah!