What do the other TIG guys do to sharpen your tungsten?
 

I'm still learning the ropes of this TIG machine and getting better by the project. After a long conversation with the guy behind the desk at the local welding shop I've gotten some tungsen and filler rod that are better sized for my materials and its made a world of difference in weld quality! The last issue I'm really fighting is scatter which leads to my question.... What is everyone else doing to sharpen their tungsten? The guy at the welding shop of course recommended a dedicated grinder wheel that is only used for sharpening tungsten which would be practical if I was TIG welding all day... or even on a weekly basis but in the real world the grinder gets used for anything that needs grinding. I've tried looking for a sharpener and they make them for $500+ which is also not practical.

Anybody have a better option or do I just need give in and dedicate a grinder wheel to the noble goal of better TIG welding?

You just need to give in.

What Jason said is true...

However, to address the question more directly, a dedicated wheel is worth it but it doesn't have to be a full size grinding wheel. I use a 1" diameter stone wheel for my die grinder.

The important thing is to grind the tungsten in the correct direction. The grind marks should be parallel to the center line of the material. I hold the tungsten with the point toward the top of the wheel (although I have seen other people hold the point down). If the grind marks are perpendicular to the center line of the tungsten that can cause issues with the arc stability.

There are chemical sharpening options too but I have not used those too much. Actually I have only used that type of deal once at the welding shop when i was demoing a Miller Diversion. I found the chemical tough to control the shape and size of the sharpening. maybe with a little practice it would get easier but I like grinding.

Hope this helps!

A dedicated die grinder setup might be something to look into.... thanks!

I'm currently sharpening it on my belt sander with a worn 120 grit belt and I am pointing into the cut. I've heard you should use 180 or finer so I know my choice of sharpening tool is likely the cause of my issue but its convenient until I get something better figured out... thus the post! I'll be making some type of change here in the next week.

Anyone else with a trick setup?

I have a dedicated tungsten grinder....

This is the model I own -- but these little things ARE as you know - expensive!


http://www.arc-zone.com/index.php?ma...oducts_id=2837

A couple of things....

#1) Tungsten dust ain't good for ya!

#2) The shape and quality of your tungsten IS important.

Be sure you're grinding properly -- and on a dedicated wheel that isn't contaminated. If you can't afford a dedicated tungsten grinder....pick up a cheap bench grinder at Harbor Freight or something of that quality and use it
only for tungsten work.

There are tons of educational videos on this subject on YouTube... takes only a couple minutes and maybe you'll spot something you are or aren't doing.

Remember -- INVERTER TIG welding - YOU DO NOT ball the tungsten for aluminum... you point it like everything else you're doing.


I got a good laugh at this scenario... because as many people discover - the initial purchase of equipment is the "cheap part".... it's all the other stuff you need to make PRO quality parts! I own an inexpensive JET "mill/drill".... I've spent 3 times the original purchase amount on cutters and collets and vises and indexers...:cheers:

Last week I was having the same problem . I was in a pinch so I just cut the 1/16 tungsten with a wire cutters . This was much better than the old grinding wheel at the shop . I now have a dedicated grinder that gets locked up ,so the other cavemen at the shop dont sharpen there spear points with it .

A little PS....

The smaller the tungsten diameter - the FINER (is that a word?) your wheel/grit should be.

I wouldn't use anything coarser than #300 and #600 should be used on the little 1/16th inch stuff.

Good stuff Greg (as always).

I will have to give the finer (I say it IS a word!) wheel a try on my 1/16 and .040 stuff. The wheel I have is pretty fine but I know it is way courser (hmm not sure about that one:rofl: ) than #300

Chris

And don't use GREEN tungsten either.... Even the guy at the LWS had Green in when I demo'd the Diversion.. I asked him if we could change it to RED and boom MUCH better!

Oh yeah --- Green (pure) is super old skool....

Use the proper tungsten for the proper HEAT RANGE which there are many charts for. You can find these at Miller or Lincoln. The diameter and type of tungsten is based on the work - A/C or DCEN - and the amperage range etc.

Crank that bad boy up and use too much current for the tungsten diameter and you get all manor of crud in your weld!

Since I'm old as dirt and can't remember anything (what were we talking about?) I use charts for everything lest I get confused. I tape them on the sides of my machines for easy reference.

Greg, have you ever used the Chemical sharpeners out there?

No....

I'm pretty 'fortunate' so if I need something for my hobby - I just go get it.

I've been welding for YEARS.... (that's not to say I'm any good at it!) and I've just upgraded "Stuff" as space allowed for it. So I'm one of those guys that has as much equipment as a pro shop. :D

Good info! Thanks for the advice everybody!

The welding shop guy actually had me switch over to green since i'm just doing aluminum so me must be old school! :lol: Seems to be working pretty well except for the fact that he also talked me into switching to 1/16 for the thin wall intercooler tubing but I think it's too small since I'm going through tungsten like crazy- the whole exposed tip is glowing while i'm welding and it gets brittle and has even broken off a few times so I think I'm going to go back up a size....

I think i'm just going to order a wheel for my grinder today.. Seems to be the simplest solution... i'll just get out the label maker to remind myself not to use that side :unibrow:

Aluminum has to be welded in A/C not DCEN (DC electrode negative).... the A/C (alternating current) is used to keep heat out of the electrode and also to aid in cleaning the aluminum as you weld.

I don't know what setting your particular welder has... but you need to check these if you're having the trouble stated!

The Dynasty 200DX has push button settings to change parameters.... but my big MIG welder actually has to have the cables physically changed if I'm changing polarity.

So - check to see that you are welding ALUMINUM in A/C --- and then there should be settings for frequency etc - and these depend on the gauge - amperage - type of weld etc.

What welder do you have?? I don't want to give you bad advice because different welders have different characteristics!

Inverter welders are better with pointed tungsten... and they generally have pulse settings etc

The older welders and some new welders are NOT inverter welders and they would have different settings etc. Non inverter welders use a balled end (hate that) and green (pure) tungsten works well for this - depending on the amperage being used.

I thought we were discussing an inverter machine too but I see now that there has been no mention of the machine itself.

In the shop I used to work at we switched over to RED electrodes (even for Aluminum) in our Sync 250 years ago... you have to resharpen the electrode fairly often but it still typically beats the GREEN. Well, that is for weld aluminum castings anyway the RED takes WAYYYY more heat.

I have to agree with Greg though I do not like balled tungsten.

Greg you are right about hating the idea of a balled tungsten, but this needs some further clarification...

Many old-timers (Like my Dad, who grew up on transformer, ie, non-inverter tig machines before the advent of today's inverter machines) got schooled in the practice of using a pure, balled tungsten electrode when welding Aluminum on A/C. Back then, the only way to have a pure tungsten electrode be able to actually survive the heat of aluminum welding on AC, was to ball the end of it by striking on DC. That made a little "globe" on the end of the electrode, which would help heat to radiate off the electrode tip during Aluminum AC welding, due to all of the added surface area. But, the torch heat zone was HUGE and hard to control.

However, much has been learned in the past 20-30 years, and today we have far superior electrodes which have compositions/metallurgy which can handle the heat of Aluminum welding much better than pure tungsten, and so we can put the desired pencil point on the electrode and have a nice, tight "flame like" heat zone off the electrode.

Today, there is NO reason that you have to, or would want to, use a pure tungsten electrode, and you do certainly not want a balled tungsten, even if you are using a transformer (non-inverter) machine.

Any transformer machine when A/C welding Aluminum, will perform infinitely better when using a 2% Lanthanated tungsten electrode (gold band) or a 2% Ceriated tungsten electrode (orange, (sometimes looks more like red) band), sharpened to a point with a pencil-like angle. (Be sure to grind the electrode longitudinally) after sharpening the electrode, I grind a tiny "flat" on the very end which is about .030" diameter (using my calibrated eyecrometer). My machine is a 2003-ish Miller syncrowave (big honkin transformer machine).

http://www.thefabricator.com/article...ten-electrodes

Greg,
What's the DC electrode positive (DCEP) setting used for?



BTW,
Here's my sharpening set-up...

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL267.../399559343.jpg

My buddies laugh because this thing will fit in the palm of your hand, but it's quiet, smooth, sits right there and doesn't move around and cost like $20. It has one purpose, to sharpen tungstens.

Jeff-

DCEP -- or reverse polarity would give you a deeper penetrating weld.

I'd use it for stick welding... on thick material or material that was filthy dirt - like farmer welding... I can't remember the last time I stick welded....

Get ya some of that there 6011.... no need to clean that rust and grease off -- just weld away! :willy: :unibrow:

Jeff ---

Have you tried welding thin sheet metal with DCEP?? On TIG??

That's funny. My guys go through cases of that crap a year welding farm fencing. I grew up thinking that was the only way to weld! :_paranoid

Hey -- I used to BRAZE (with brass fill rod and that welding stuff called Oxy Acetylene!) fenders on and patch panels... and anything thicker than that was 6011!

Oh -- gee -- and then we discovered bondo reacts (not favorably!) with brass! LOL

I'm always waiting to recognize some of those "crap repairs" we "discover" now on these 40+ year old cars... as something I might have done!! :rofl:

So this was YOU, you bastage! Now I'm faced with trying to fix all this crap!

http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL267.../399560662.jpg

One of my friends was looking at this and commenting on what a half-assed bs repair it was... that's just how it was done years back. Painful, but common.

Jeff-

I did flip it over there tonight and try to start an arc on some 18ga. Even with the setting on 75, it put out a glow like I was welding thick aluminum and turned the tungsten red almost immeadiately and balled the end of it. Of course it blew right through the 18ga. DCEP must use much lower settings than DCEN?
I didn't continue to fool with it because obviously I needed to ask someone what sort of stoopid sheet I was doing with electrode positive... :_paranoid

Jeff-

OMG!! I remember that car!!



:willy: :willy: :rofl:



Seriously Jeff -- I'm really not that good of a welder.... better than many -- not nearly as talented as I'd like to be... not enough steady day in and day out welding to get to expert level. My skill is more from many many years of welding various 'stuff' -- and understanding the warp - the clamp - and being able to get 'er done.

DCEP is not something I'd bother with in TIG - because - WTF - it's hard enough making nice just trying to do the standard stuff the standard way. But it is "described" as a way to weld thin sheet. I can weld thin sheet in DCEN so "why bother" doing it any other way....

The reason I "PUSH" the Dynasty 200 machine - because it has so many controls that help us do better work. The settings really do help - pulse - and frequency control etc. and it will do the gauges that we commonly work in. I don't see the need to ever buy another machine for TIG unless this one gives up the ghost some day.

If I was welding frames all day -- I'd have a bigger machine and a water cooled torch... But I weld a little here and a little there - a patch panel - a bracket - someones busted up lawn mower... and it's more than enough for that. I have a couple torches -- the #2 is used the most - it's small and has a super supple supply line....

Please, Please get yourself some 2% Lanthanated or Ceriated and stop using Pure tungsten for your Aluminum welding, you won't believe the difference in performance. Also when welding 1/16 wall aluminum tubing, 3/32 dia. electrode works well.

From what I've been seeing on the bench and what I've been reading in this post that is what I'm going to do... I started with a 3/32 orange band and with 3/32 filler rod that came with the welder. I've switched to 1/16" filler which seems to be more controllable and I think the rest of my early issues fall back to how I was grinding the tungsten.

The switch to TIG has definately been a learning experience and I've got a simple TIG welder... it looks like it is going to be a whole new ball game when I step up to something bigger that has more buttons and dials!:lol:

Still I've made huge progress since the first sparks! I've got dimes, quarters, lumps.... but no melt downs. 3" Vibrant intercooler tubing.. The picture makes it look huge but the weld is less than 1/4"
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/v...0Pics/Weld.jpg

You really don't need to scuff the aluminum with the wire brush etc if you're welding with A/C... the A/C will do the cleaning.

Try it.

Can you set frequency etc on your welder?

Looks like it might have been wire brushed after the welding. If not there is not much cleaning etch visible around the weld.

I'm going to have to try Aluminum at some point! Damn this project, no time to experiment! Good info here guys! Thanks. :thumbsup:

The tubing comes pre-polished and the guy that was doing the TIG work for me before said it was giving him grief when he was welding and with everything I've read about TIG not liking contamination I scrub the crap out of the tubing before welding with a stainless brush.

It looks like I did run back over it with a stainless wire brush post-weld.

No, I cant adjust frequency on my TIG. Its a Miller Diversion 165- pretty basic but I got it for a good price to learn with and it should burn everything I'm doing for now.

Nothing wrong with the Diversion to learn on!!!!

If you brush the aluminum brush one direction only. Going back and forth can cause the oxides to get pushed deeper into the material.

My little Diversion (165 with a pedal) seems to be "under rated" as it does a pretty good job on thicker materials. As long as you don't "force" it. Give her some time and away you go.

You will be able to get excellent results with the diversion. Everyone on the miller Forums say the Diversion Aluminum settings are the "std" Dynasty 200dx settings.

Chris

I actually find aluminum "easy" but it's all about being able to see the puddle especially on aluminum.... and I find the speed is far faster once you get going --- it's a real dip move dip move process.

It figures, I can't dance either! :rofl:

One thing that really helps, especially with tig, is to be able to get really "up close and personal" with the weld (Not you Greg) and see exactly what is going on with the puddle. Even if you are not "getting on in years", get yourself a 1.0 or 1.5 diopter magnifying ("cheater") lens for your helmet, and just try it. The Miller ones cost all of eight dollars on Ebay....It's a cheap experiment.

And even if you don't have a Miller helmet, you can just tape one inside whatever helmet you may have. Using one will make a better welder out of almost anyone (my opinion).

I agree with you Rob -- perhaps the method is "crude" -- but I've said over and over again on these welding questions.... If you can't see the puddle - you just can't weld. Period. Whatever that "is"... different shades of lens - glasses - head angle - torch angle.... Ya got to be able to clearly see the puddle. If all you're seeing is a white spot - or it's so dark you can't see the color of the metal changing - or you can't see when it goes from solid to molten... ya gotta change what you're doing until you can.

Great idea! On it!

Darren

X2, I ordered one today. Thanks for the tip.

Don

Well I will get slammed for this but - I just use a 80 grit flapper disc on my hand grinder to sharpen my tungsten, and its whatever flapper disc I happen to have. It mostly gets used on aluminum but is is FAR from a clean disc. I am not the best Tig welder in the world but I do all right, and don't really have a problem with a wide or wandering arc. I do clean the crap out of my aluminum and rod before welding or else I get bad contamination. Perhaps having a dirtier tungsten is why I have to be so meticulous about cleaning my parts, but if it is welding clean it is welding clean. I might try using a virgin disc next time I am TIG'ing to see if it helps.

Just another data point.