Ridetech TruTurn on 69 Camaro
 

Has anyone installed the Ridetech TruTurn system on a '69 Camaro and used 275 front tires? If so, then how much surgery was required on the inner fender wells? What width wheels did you use? I need to order wheels this week and need to decide on wheel width. My choices are limited to 18x9 or 18x10 and I will be using 275/35/18 KDW's.

Gary

I have not installed one, BUT if I remember correctly Mark Stielow installed 265's on Camaro X long before the TruTurn was around. I think that the 69' model has a little more room front and rear than the 67' & 68' models.

Travis

If you decided you want to try this syste, make sure you check for header clearance. With the raised inner tie rods, it hit my headers. I am running a small block with Hooker Super Comp headers on a 67 Camaro.

with a stock subframe there is no way you are fitting a 265 or 275 tire in there without giving up turning radius (tire hits the frame rail) or rubbing the fender lip.

Its not happening. if you want it to fit and function you better look at aftermarket subframes or widened fenders

I have to respectfully disagree.

Our Tru Turn system consists of tubular StrongArm upper and lower control arms, our RideTech spindle [which is both taller than the oem unit and has a raised pin to lower the car], a different steering arm, and a special drag ling bracket to re-position the tie rods to optimize the steering geometry. Not only can you fit a 18x10 wheel with a 275mm front tire, but the camber curve, bumpsteer and caster alignment are also optimized.

If you use the 18x10 wheel you will need to use a 5.75 backspace. With that fitment [and the recommended alignment specs] the tire will contact the subframe just enough to possibly rub some paint off at full lock. IF you also incorporate shorter subframe/body bushings, you will also need to make MILD modifications to the outer portion of the inner fender for clearance.

IF you use stock height subframe bushings and/or put the 275 tire on a 18x9.5 wheel with a 5.5 backspace, no mods are needed to anything.

All of this is covered in the info and instructions http://www.ridetech.com/store/tru-turn/


We have a 67 and a 68 Camaro in our own stable to demonstrate this, and hundreds of additional customers who have successfully installed this package.

Yes, it's tight.
No, if you do not align the frontend, it may not fit [or perform as intended].
Yes, you must use the complete package, it MAY NOT fit or be compatible with other brand components. [other companies and customers have verified fitment and function with other brand components]
Yes, you should be aware of header fitment. Some of the older gen 1 small block header designs are troublesome. Most LS conversions are fine.

Hope my car never finds this out!

I got one in mine, but hasn't had a chance to align it or drive it more than twice. The drivers tire rubs the fender when turning hard. I had stock drum spindles and chopped springs before and it didn't rub. And I have a HUGE tire in front.... 17x7 wheel and 245/45.... Well, not big I mean! LoL! Not sure why its rubbing and really hope the alignment fixes it.
Any thoughts Brett?

10 inch rim! 275-40-17, stock subframe, Tru-turn, no loss of turning, second fastest car in Del Mar this weekend, you want to see my car turn the click this link
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

I don't know who gave you bad advice? but here's what you get with a tru turn, and a 10inch rim running 275 tires, BETTER turn in, NO bump steer, QUICKER reaction to inputs, IMPROVED camber change, these companies spend a lot of money figuring this **** out man, they don't just throw crap in a box and sell it


http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps01dcd057.jpg

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps76dc509f.jpg

^

or unmodified inner fenderwells??? now tell the truth guys....I've seen them and I know what needs to be done.

You gotta do the work to get them there.

Not to be critical, because I love your car, but fitting big tires isn't just a matter of taking "bad advice"

Bret above: You in this thread: http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/9...light=tru+turn


You have the same picture of your car in the other thread, so which do you use 9.5" or 10" ? Lay a tape on it and take a picture so we are all sure.

The ridetech 48hr camaro does have substantially cut inner and outer fenders/fenderwells. Not enough to look abnormal, but you sure couldn't do it to a painted car, and of course the factory trim won't fit either. The bottom line is that the clearances are too close to make blanket generalizations unless you err on the conservative side. Also, some people have different definitions of what rubbing is, I believe it means taking the spring out and cycling the wheels side to side with the suspension BOTTOMED OUT. Some think if the tires only hit in extreme maneuvers all is fine, and that is ok, as long as everyone understands the situation. An extremely important factor is the camber that is aligned in. An autocross car that goes through a couple of sets of tires a season, isn't worried about -1.5 degrees or more negative camber, whereas a 100% street car isn't going to run near as much, and that extra camber from tilting the top of the tire in helps tremendously in letting the tire and the top of the fender get along.

As far as I know, there is no one who has tested and published all the variables vs what tire fits. Camber / tire size / wheel offset / ride height /17s & 18's / brake packages / steering & idler arms / headers / etc, etc. If ridetech sent me a truturn, and BFG sent me some Rivals, and Forgeline sent me some wheels in 1/8" different offsets, I would take a stab at it, but we know the likelihood of that is zero.

A search of tru-turn topics just makes things worse, because most responses don't offer enough details of a particular combo to draw concrete conclusions.

Great observation.

I always tell people, do the work to check fitment BEFORE you buy the wheel. Borrow a wheel fitment tool, trial fit a test wheel ask the wheel company if they can send you a blank tester. Doing the extra research can save SO much trouble in the end.
Also, just cause Joe A fit the tires and wheels doesn't mean its going to fit Joe B's car. Advise from others are just suggested sizes. Somewhere to start.
Another thing. When fitting wheels and tires, its way cheaper to modify going in than it is going out.
Some customers just aren't comfortable wackin their inner wells or taking a ball bat to the fenders.

It will and can fit, your just gonna have to do the work.

yep that's lot! so lets se if I can help, from the top,
bad advice, poor advice, whatever you want to call it, I see it all the time others saying, things don't fit, its all wrong, my question to the OP(original poster) say you cant fit it on a stock frame and you lose turning radius is "Did you try?" and "if so, what didn't work and could it have been fixed or done differently to, did your rim have the wrong offset? wrong steering arms? different camber or castor? for example after I installed the tru-trun I had the same steering in one direction and not the other, after looking at all the parts and cycling the steering over and over I found with manufacturing tolerances +/- whatever they are the steering arm stop hit a 1/2 earlier on one side than the other(could have been the 40+ year old frame angle, lower control arm mounting holes, whatever) I simply ground the steering stop down for clearance, same steering and now better ackerman

yep sorry about that off the shelf Coys model C55, 17X9.5, rear spacing 5.50", offset +6mm, Bore Dia 78.1mm, bolt pattern 5-120.65,all four corners

yes my suspension was also cycled, that should be a standard thing to do when building (I'm no expert/engineer/designer just a hot rodder telling others what I have done) in fact I have a cool little test stand made from and old frame (cost me 50 bucks) and a old creeper, I try everything on first and measure....here it is with the tru-turn, DSE upper arm and stock lower arm

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...psadf2dac7.jpg

here you can see I'm trying Hotchkis springs in the setup, along with coil overs and several different spindles

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...psef2241ef.jpg

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps8d565ebe.jpg

and to me rubbing is rubbing and any friction between the tire and any surface other than the road is unsafe, I run 1.2-1.5 degrees camber(daily driven), my inner fender well is modified as shown in my build thread after the car was painted, I did it with a cool $19.95 harbor freight brake and scrap aluminum

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps21f583bf.jpg

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps007c1936.jpg


probably not, I did a lot of testing on my own, crazy stuff, I even had extra steering arms that I heated and bent to run larger rims and fix bump steer, I cut lower control arms to add more castor and fix ball joint angles, Man, I have enough, extra suspension stuff that I have bought over the last 4 years, that I was able to build a custom suspension on my girlfriends 1963 AMC Rambler wagon and I still have enough to build another car+

agree, but my issues was just don't say it cant be done, that bugs me because 6 years ago I bought my car asked question and was told a lot of stuff on forums that I went ahead and did anyways and found out that many of those giving advice were wrong, WAY wrong, and a few companies that i have been around the last few years actually listened to a little racer guy like me

hope it all helps

Thanks for the response. This first picture is a good example of why the saying is true, it is worth a thousand words. The rear of the fenderwell that is visible and bent, is why many people get nervous at just taking someone else's experience as gospel. It works for you, and that is ok, but for many with already painted cars including myself, that is just not going to work. I'm not racing the car anymore, it has a stupid expensive paintjob that took an insane amount of time, and a difficult to match color. Inner wheelwell work is fine, bending the outer fender is not.

So maybe the person above who said it can't be done is not so far off, depending on their criteria, ie no cutting. Especially if they were talking about 10" rims, ie 0.5" wider than yours, all added to the outside.

For 67-8's, a common fitting combination for many years has been an approximately 25.5" to 25.6" tall, 245 section tire on an 8" rim with 4.5" to 4.75" of backspacing. It usually fits with only minor rubbing at most. The truturn mod, using 5.75" of backspace, adds an additional 1.0" to 1.25" to the inner part of the rim, and the 275 tire adds an equal amount, also all added to the inside. Now you are up to 9.0 to 9.25" of total rim width. Adding the extra .75 to 1.0" to get to 10" total now has to all be added to the outer part of the rim, and this is where the fender problems start.


Another good picture. I wish ridetech had documented the 48hr build with pictures of the inner and outer fender modifications. They kind of skipped over some important parts like the front fender mods (and the minitub). I know Bret says it is no big deal, and it isn't if you are in the build phase and you have wheels and tires to try, but if you are looking at modifying a built car, it could really help people make tire choices.

Also note that your 1.5 degrees of neg camber helps fender clearance by moving the top of the tire inward, but is probably more than a street only car looking for long tire life is going to want. An autocross only first gen camaro can use as much as 6 degrees negative. With that much you might get away with a 285 or 295.

ha ha ha funny but thats not the camaro in that picture that's the Rambler project Im building,

here it is, still under construction
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps0556154c.jpg

widened track width (60inchs), only a 101 inch wheel base, 10 bolt 8.5 chevy diff, ridetech 4 link, custom subframe, corvette, spindles and brakes, coil overs front and rear
what I started with
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...r/GEDC0047.jpg

Jane's fenders are fine here a link to the popular Hotrodding feature on my car just in September
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/fea...evy_camaro_rs/

^^ Rod, Suzy's ride is gonna be killer. :gitrdun:

Thanks Dave! I'm working as fast as I can:knokwood:

We are talking about 1969's not 67 or 68
 

I'm surprised this got such a response. Thanks to all for the input

but on a 69 its not happening. And its certainly not happening with a 5.75" BS. The reason is "outer" fender clearance

I have the full system complete with the muscle bar. I have a 18x9.5" wheel with 6.25" BS (an extra 0.5" of fender clearance) and it doesn't clear the fender. Its really not even close.

Even with 6.25 I am sacrificing turning radius. at 6.75", which is probably what you need to get clearance, you are talking Austin Powers u-turns. at 5.75" my fender would be sitting on the tire.

On a 68 the fender is rounded and has more clearance for tire movement. Not so much on a 69.

Granted I still need to dial in some negative camber but you can see with zero suspension movement I can barely fit a nickel between the fender and the tire.

So i will maintain that the ridetech setup will not fit 275's on a 69 without giving up turning radius or flaring the outer fenders. I think ridetech really should re-evaluate making 5.75" BS reccos on a 69

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...121_161108.jpg

That's the first time I have ever heard that. Usually I hear the opposite.

i assume you are talking about 68 vs 69 fender clearance. I'm eyeballing it because there is one sitting next to mine. The fenders are rounded on the 68 and have a lip. On the 69 it cuts straight across and there is little or no lip. That is the area where you rub on the 69 fender

I don't understand why it doesn't fit your 69 camaro, a 69 camaro is 1.5 inches wider in each fender compared to 67-68,
1) I would first set the camber, just from the picture I can see positive camber,
2) set the toe in also
and that will complete the install, there's a lot of factors involved to get it all in, and the inner fender well and inner fender lip on
ALL lowered camaros have to be modified that's why guys like anvil make a taller and wider inner fender well(in fiberglass and carbon)
heres a pic of there fender vs Stock
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps493765a7.jpg

but I'm not rich so a little trimming and some aluminum to replace the cut out metal and I was done heres some pics

ok I did the fender mod a few months back and its not the most awesome one out there but its simple and I hope it helps you guys some

heres the car at ride height

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...psf0949fe1.jpg


remove the inner fender bolts all the way around

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps62528fe5.jpg

just leave the front one for now

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps08963a51.jpg

and the lower rear will need a small button head when your done or you can leave it out if you want

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...pscf2f6e55.jpg

you need a couple of these and some strong forearms or cut it the way you want

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...psc198182c.jpg

you can see were it rubs or just measure the center of the fenderwell and measure 16" x 7" rectangle these are my favs for basic trimming

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...psf93c926e.jpg

drill a hole and start trimming,,,,,

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps3eb701a1.jpg

instead of an empty hole I left half of the tin in place and bent it backwards to hold the wires and hoses between it and the fenders here is how the hole looks after trimming and rolling the fender edge, see 16 inches

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps503b4532.jpg

heres the 7 inch measurement

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...pse3c38847.jpg

then I made a simple card board filler patch template

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps270b8221.jpg

the transferred to a thin aluminum diamond plate

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...psf34f8081.jpg

bend it to fit the original template

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps007c1936.jpg

and the I fitted it back into the opening

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...psb670764a.jpg

that's it!! when I replace the inner fender wells with fiber glass ones I will just mod those before I put them in and wont need to have the aluminum plates any more and this mod allows a ton of roll and no rub!!!

http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps55616c55.jpg

hope this helps!!

That's a great post, thanks.

I'm not really concerned with the inner fender mods. I am more than willing to cut it up and make it fit. What concerns me is the hitting the outer fender. Definitely will not be flaring the fenders.

Running some quick calcs it looks like i would gain 1/4" - 1/2" at best if i'm +2 on camber. That may be enough...

I still think 5.75" BS is wrong on a 69. I'll keep you guys updated after alignment if you care to know.

yes keep us updated! I'm curious, I did measure an 18x10 inch rim (test fit on the car) and It looks like a 6.00 BS would be perfect, I run a 9.5 rim and I have a 5.50BS and it fits great, ok let us know

re
 

Id love to hear from brett the vendor. They never seem to give anything outside the vague response "make it fit" modify the fenders.... if hundreds of other people have made it work there should be plenty of info. Detroit Speed gives exact tire/wheel sizes for their subframe. For what the tru turn system cost it would be nice to get more guidance on wheel combos and fender modifacation requirements.

Its close to impossible to have information to cover every single situation out there. DSE does give a recommendation cause the base frame is under their control.

Ridetech sells parts that you install on your frame which is mounted to your body.

Who is to be certain what has been changed or modified on your particular car.

I had a customer bring his car in to have the wheels fitted. At some point in its life the subframe and supports were repaired and off by almost and inch. Now that might not sound like a lot to you but it is when you are trying to stuff the biggest tire you could.

I say this because you happen to be the first that had issue on a 69 with 5 3/4" backspace wheels. I'd like to revisit this thread after you get a proper wheel alignment on the car. After that then I'd like to take a closer look at the arms and the mounting points.

I still haven't got mine aligned yet cause I've moved and been too busy. But like I said earlier, the drivers side rubs during a semi hard turn and it only has 7x17 wheels. Can't remember the BS tho, it's been WAY too long since I got them, but they ain't deep.
Anxiously awaiting info from y'all! LoL!

My tru-turn experience
 

I installed the complete Ridetech coilover and tru-turn system on my '69. Prior to ordering new wheels and selling my old wheel & tires I did a test fit - (coilovers temporarily not installed) - with a 275/35/18 on 18x10 wheel with 5.75 B.S. (This wheel and tire was being used on the back of my car w/ a small spacer). I set the camber close to zero with an angle gauge. I immediately discovered that combination would not work at all unless I wanted a very high ride height - not desirable. The tire touched the top, horizontal, outer part of the fender at any where close to full lock. The fenders would have to be flared to provide clearance - not desirable. I then ordered 18x9" wheels with 5.75 B.S. and the setup looks OK with the 275 tire. My Camber is set to -0.5 deg and is about all I want to go for good tire wear. I loaned the 18x9 wheel/ tires to 2 friends that were also in the process of installing the tru-turn on their '69 Camaros. After testing, they both went with 18x9 with 6" B.S. They are able to run their Camaros about 1/4" lower than my car and are happy with that combination. A few months ago I tried lowering my car that low but then heard rubbing during parking maneuvers and discovered the paint chipped off the fender where the tire was making contact. I raised it back up 1/4" and that is as low as it can go. Also, both sides of the car have very close to the same clearance, no more than 1/8" difference.

Recently Ridetech built that high end '69 for Goodguys and used an 18x10 on the front but I have no idea how they made it fit, or if they run lots of negative camber, or how much backspacing they used. Will they be able to leave it at that height and really drive it on city streets, parking lots, fields, etc?

Gary

Lets get serious. If you are buying the tru turn system with all ride tech suspension components it should not be hard to recommend tire size and BS. Obviously if you have a bent frame nothing is going to work and that's not on the vendor.

For what that system costs you should be able to clearly demonstrate what's required. An ambigous statement about fender modification and backspacing is a bit of a cop out. My frame is straight and has been aligned on the body. With a suggested 1.5" additional fender clearance over the 67/68 and an additional 0.5" of BS I should not be that close.

Im really not trying to flame I just wish I had acess to this info before I spent 3bags. Backspacing info and installation notes are few and far between on this setup. I will definitely keep you posted. Hopefully I'm over reacting and an alignment will give me clearance.

Again, that's why I always tell people. All cars are different. Measure your space carefully and adjust what you need as far as size and back spacing to make it fit.

you really need more camber, I drive mine daily (22.000 miles this year) and I have about -1.5 on my camber in order to have an even tire wear, with less camber the alignment looks good but the car still feathers(and wears) the outside edge more so I dialed in camber till I had even wear

hope that helps

That is good info. Thanks,

Gary

Thanks again guys for chiming in.

Toe (positive) will have a bigger effect on tire wear than camber, under 3 degrees negative that is. Shocks, springs, sway bars and all around set up plays a part. You just have to find your sweet spot.