Project 'Too Much': 1969 P1800S - soon to be P1800 GT
 

I picked up this car last summer, I had never seen one before and wanted it as soon as I came across it.
When I bought it I told my wife I would drive it as is 'don't need to change anything'....
I have done some minor bolt on changes to previous cars, but nothing to this scale before. I would appreciate feedback through the build if you see anything that seems off.;)
Initially I was looking at a mustang II front and 9" rear, I am actually running Mustang II coilovers in the front of this car now and adjustable spring perches in the rear that gives me about 4 inches of lowering.
The car is solid and would run forever the way it is, until rust ate it apart. My plans are:
Corvette IFS and IRS
20x11 rear 19x10 front
LS engine - turbo
complete rebuild to clear out any rust
interior, electronics, the works.

When the rendering is available I will post it, here are some images the way it sits today.

My build will be called 'Too Much' - (my families idea)

Wish me luck!

The fourth image is the car passing emission testing.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/P1800S%203.jpg
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/P1800S%202.jpg
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/P1800S%201.jpg
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/P1800S%204.jpg

GLW your build.Will be watching.:thumbsup:

Watch Iamtheonlyreal1 products, I've been following his builds and I'm amazed by the quality, anyway, the car looks in perfect shape, looking forward the build pics.

Tear down begins!
original interior
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/int%201.JPG
original guages - I wan't to replicate these with modern guages
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/guages.JPG
B20F - 100 hp?
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/b20f.JPG
engine bay - day 1 :)
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/bay.JPG

Thanks for the replies!

Here is some information on a build in Sweden that inspired my project.
http://www.p1800gt.se/

that is gonna be an awesome project, can't wait to see the rendering.

Another P1800 Build, some day...
 

I saw the P1800 build on here on Lateral-g and I got inspired. I am in the middle of a 1969 Camaro build, and my next car will be a P1800. I found a 1965 P1800S in the woods in Willits, CA, a complete car with documents that go back to when it was imported into Canada from Sweeden, maintenance records from the 60's to the late 80's from all the owners up until the current owner who drove it until 1990 then parked it. Major rust in some spots on the floor pan, rockers and wheel openings, almost none in others and most of the rest of the car, I need to start tearing into the car to see whether the floor is salvageable, everything else is mostly rust free and solid (the car spent its first years in the rust belt in Canada), but there is some minor body damage to deal with too.

I've been checking out a bunch of things to do with the car. If the car is rust free and straight, check out this thread on CHANGLING. You can also search Google on "P1800" and "LS1" and there are other threads on that build.
https://lateral-g.net/forums/show...ighlight=p1800
Robert has put together a suspension kit for P1800's and Amazon's, looks slick, and mostly a bolt up application. Front and Rear kit.
https://lateral-g.net/forums/show...ighlight=p1800

I went to the Good Guys event this summer in Pleasanton, CA and talked to the guys at Art Morrison, and they have built a G-Max replacement frame for a customer already. Send them an email and they can send you info on the P1800 frame they put together for a customer already. Major floor sheet metal surgery on that car if you use that set up for sure, but there are some REALLY-REALLY-REALLY SICK/AWESOME/RADICAL rides based on the G-Max (I'm still blown away by the 1954 Vette with a G-max frame). Well worth an email and a phone call.
http://autoeclectic.com/monster-vett-1954-zr1/

From what I've been able to figure out, the wheel base is pretty narrow (96 inches) and the track width is pretty narrow too (59 to 63, depending on how much tire rub the owner is willing to tolerate!!). Kind of hard to use Vette geometry all around, unless you are willing to stretch the car, move the wheel openings and/or flare the fenders, and then trim the torque tube to fit the P1800 wheel base. It has been done, and it is a TON of fabrication. From what I've seen the recommended hub-to-hub track width from most custom shops would recommend a 53 to 55 inch range, and if you plan to use a C5/C vette front suspension, you might have some pretty narrow frame rails. DSE just released a narrower front frame. Don't know much about it, but it is a DSE product, and make some good stuff.
http://www.detroitspeed.com/products...gen-frame.html

I've been hitting the Car shows and photographing other cars that have been built that are the same size and proportion. I found an Austin-Healey (??) of about the same size that had 2 to 3 inch flares on all four corners, and the side pipes that the builder used really brought the car back into proportion, as the car would have looked like a race car (and kinda funny) without the side pipes.

Have fun with the build!! And keep posting pics!! Lots of Pics!! :thumbsup:

This is great stuff, thank you for the info!

Update
 

Some of the teardown is complete, I had a few hours over the weekend.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/eb1.jpg
I have uncovered most of the car now and can see where the work will start.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/peek.jpg
For the most part this car is in very good condition.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/int1.jpg
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/ru1.jpg

almost time to cut.
There are a few panels that will need to be replaced and I have a few places where a finger can go through the floor :)

P1800 Panels
 

When you get into your build, if you find you need body or floor panels get in touch with Robin at Wolf Steel.http://www.alfaparts.net/
He's great to work with and has a good selection available for these cars.

Good luck on the build, I have been telling the P1800/Amazon community that they need to get off their asses and represent in the real car classes.. LOL Seems, I have been black listed by alot of the organizations, because these cars are perfect in their original form. I had a couple of guys literally say that if the original OEM suspension and drivetrain setup was tuned right, it would far surpass anyones driving capabilities.. LOL No Lie, they really believe this.. Once we get a couple of the P1800's and Amazon's completed, we have a agreed to put one of them up against the originally configured car, so lets just hope they actually show up since it was their idea.

Just let me know if you need anything.. I would be happy to help out in what ever fashion I can.. I was considering the full Corvette chassis also, but there was going to be way to much fab to the car and the chassis to get it done, so I decided not to go that route. Our kits are a direct bolt in, because we are building several of these 545 horsepower projects, and I wanted to ensure some consistancy in the builds.. So all of our stuff is CAD'd and mass produced at this time.

Thank you for the offer, I will let you know if I need anything. For the purists:
Things alter for the worse spontaneously, if they be not altered for the better designedly.
I am aiming for designedly. :)

This will be fun to watch. I really like that body style.

uncovering previous repairs - some good some bad
 

Today's work:
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/driv...ear%20down.jpg
Drivers side floor - numerous layers of metal in here
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/driv...0close%202.jpg
I wonder what we'll find underneath?

http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/tear...%20int%202.jpg
The old battery box location - this will come out and the battery will be relocated to the rear of the car.

http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/tubs.JPG

I need room for a few more inches of wheel and tire- I believe the originals were 7" wide, new ones are just under 12.

http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/rear%20rails.jpg

This will go, there are signs of rust in the top of the frame rails - won't need them anyway. The new axle centreline will be approximately where the bottom of this spring perch sits now.

Thank you for the link and the recommendation for the floor pans. :thumbsup:

Once the car comes apart I will be looking at options, and the magnitude of the required repairs, because there are more then a few repairs required on the floor. The bigger the repair the more I will lean toward a replacement frame and just tear everything apart. Wide rear tires will be a part of that design too, so I will be modifying the floor no matter what.

Keep the photos coming, especially of the replacement and mods for the rear openings!!

More rust? and a teaser
 

http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/inner%20fender.jpg
I think I have found almost all the rust so I can finalize the plan for what I keep and what needs to go.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/rust...ame%20rail.jpg
Frame rails and floor are on the go list.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/test%20fit.jpg
I test fit the C4 IRS so I can measure out the rear frame rails and start on them.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/rear...20side%201.jpg
looks ok but we'll need a little more width to the rear.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/cor%20det%20cls%201.jpg
Check these out! :)

Just had an update on the rendering, it should be up this week.

more clean up and minor fab
 

I removed the battery box, it had fiberglass repairs in with the metal and rust. I will rework the entire firewall later on:
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/batt...%20removal.jpg

The engine bay is clear now and looks pretty good overall.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/engi...clean%20up.jpg

These cars typically see rust in the window frames, and in the body where the water runs inside from these bad spots. No surprise to see this, but the car looked great from outside...
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/front%20window%20b4.jpg

Front repair panel, just a start. This is a first attempt for me.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/fron...ir%20panel.jpg

Rear window lower frame, same issue but the water didn't cause damage any further down which is great news!

http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/rear%20window%20b4.jpg

And the repair panel:
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/rear...ir%20panel.jpg

Now the paint will need to be blasted off and I can start on the frame rails, or whatever else we uncover first...

C4 IRS Rear?? NICE!!
 

Nice updates on the project!!

I've looked at squeezing a C4 IRS and after talking to a few different frame builders there seemed to be a limit to the amount of tire width that could be squeezed into the rear end of that car with a C4 Vette IRS, as the stock hub-to-hub is around 63" and the narrowest most frame makers would go was usually in the 59" range, and with the car only 64-65" in the rear it would limit how wide the tires would be, unless there were fender flares. I'm over planning this aren't I???

Are you going 100% custom on that rear end? Or is there an aftermarket kit that makes that rear end kit and are you just welding that in?

Rear
 

I have built the rear bracket for the c4 IRS from images I found online and stock c4 diagrams.
The rear is quite a bit wider, I have custom wheels that I had cut for this setup but will still have some work to do on the width of the body. I don't mind flares but also don't want to ruin the lines of the car. So I have to take it slow.
If I had that rendering back already...:rolleyes:
I will post more updates when I can, I will be replacing the rear frame rails with a 2x3 frame and am currently considering a full frame under the car. I found rust in the rear portions of the rocker supports the other day.

I really wanted a deep dish wheel on the back but could only fit so much into the narrow body.

Thanks for the download on your frame design ideas and progress. I've looked at alternatives to a Vette/Jag/Ford T-Bird IRS, and while there are a few really custom set-up's there isn't a long track record on most of those custom set-ups. The only truly stock set-up that looks like it would work without changing the hub-to-hub distance is either a Miata or BMW 3-series. Both have a significant selection of aftermarket parts available (shocks, caster/camber kits, brakes, rotors, etc.) and can be upgraded to handle pro-touring engine power and abuse.

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat, the harder I look at the car the more rust/rot/damage I find, which has me leaning away from the Sweedish Ops replacement k-member and 4-link set-up. Besides, the more I think about blowing out the floor and going 100% custom, the more possibilities open up.:D

Good thing I have another car to finish before I make any commitments.......

Teasers
 

I've got a great artist working on my renderings, today I had a sneak peek at how its coming together.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/teaser%201.jpg

http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/teaser%202.jpg
I'm happy so far, its hard to build what you can't 'see'.

No rust on these...:D

Cool Renderings
 

Nice to have the ability to visualize your project beforehand. I don't think I'll get that luxury, so I'll have to borrow from your images. And anybody else that can send me their build info and photos. HA!!

What do they say, Imitation is the highest form of flattery!

I like the look of the curled flares rather than the flat flares like those that are found on the BMW M3 Roadster.

Looks like you will be using the stock wheel openings, then modifying those upper lips. I've been looking at the Vox renderings, and the build from Robert Jackson, and the wheel openings have been reworked in those builds, mostly looks like they just raised the top lip of the opening, and widened the opening overall, then added the flare. Also, I'd think about changing the wheel base (for better weight distribution, if it will make a difference worth the effort) if there are any advantages. The Vox rendering has a longer hood/front end and the longer hood is a bit more of the "Muscle Car" look instead of the "European Sports Car" look.

I've been looking at that and there are other ways to do that. The simplest way is to just extend the nose, in the same way that Carol Shelby extended the nose of the AC Ace and made it the AC Cobra. Not sure how much effort I'd expend at really extending the entire front end.

Any mods to the tail fins, head lights, bumpers, spoiler in the plans too?

Sorry, I'm just way too curious.

I dont mean to interrupt the thread here with pics of my builds, but I just wanted to point out that the Weight Balance wont really be off.. I will have these cars on the scales before too long, and I think everyone would be very surprised at what these cars weight distributions will be after all the mods and upgrades. I dont really think there is much need to extend the wheel base, because the V8's will sit in these cars in a better position than the OEM 4cyl.. If you notice, the front of the LS heads are at the spindle position, so there isnt really any overhange.. The Accessories of the motor is really the only thing forward of the spindle, and the Radiator is the only thing forward of the tires..

With all the mods and weight savings we have done with the crossmember/suspension kit, we will be within about 40 pounds of the original front end weight.. You also have to then take into account the motor actually sits about 4 inches further back than the OEM 4cyl, along with sitting in a lower postion, for a better center of gravity.

In these pics, the motor is fully accessorized, and mounted in position. The headers pictured, are our mock ups for production, and they are currently being set up for production.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...arie/002-6.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...arie/007-6.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...arie/003-9.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...arie/015-3.jpg


I didnt extend the wheel base, but I think the front end mods did help in changing the appearance of the factory short nose. Rasing the Wheel Arches by far makes the most change in the overall appearance and stance of the car. I dont have the correct offset wheels on the car, so the front wheel seems to stick out a bit too much.. If you look at the first pic, you will see the appearance and ride height capability with the same 19 inch wheels as are pictured after the wheel arch mods..

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...000_0006-1.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...o/000_0002.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...lvo/012-12.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...lvo/010-26.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...lvo/006-36.jpg

I have been playing with a few suspension simulators and trying to calculate a few things for the rear suspension geometry. The stock C4 had a 96.2 inch wheelbase and 3239 lbs, my P1800 had 96.5 inch wheelbase stock at about 2500lbs.

http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/squat%20sized.jpg

I am having problems with the Antisquat and centre of gravity because I have to guess on weight and distribution right now. I almost have to have the car finished so I can weigh it and calculate from there. ?

So what I am doing is lining up the wheel location, determined the location of the batwing and diff then I will work out the coilovers based on my estimated weight and ride height. This leave the location and angles for trailing arms without screwing up antisquat and roll centre.

But like I said, this is new to me. Any ideas?

I may want to extend the wheelbase but my feeling right now is that would only by a cosmetic change.

Hang in there with me, as the car comes along I'll share as much info as I can to help you with yours.

http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/geometry.jpg

Can you corner weight your car and send me the numbers?

I will have the corner weights before too long, along with the front to rear distribution percentages.. I would ask though, did the C4 have great suspension performance? The cars I had driven, really didnt impress me much. They seemed to have the squatty affect, and seem to be a bit sketchy.. I just wonder if it is worth all the mods to make this work, and what the actual gains would be. I am not pretending to know, just honestly wondering what the overall gains would be?

I will be doing some reconfiguration here or there also, when it comes to component placement.. We are working on a production Jaguary style placed fuel tank, that will stand up in the front of the trunk, near the rear axle. We will then have an OEM fuel tank delete plate, that will have a recessed area made into it, so we can house the battery in a centered position, as close to the rear axle as possible. I am trying to get rid of alot of the factory rear axle over hang weight, which should be very beneficial in setup..

Also, by running the Jaguar style fuel tank and the OEM tank delete plate, it will allow us to run a transverse muffler assembly in the space that the factory fuel tank occupied. This will help with ground clearance issues, and muffler size and placement, because we will only have exhaust pipe running the length of the car.

This is an interesting question and one that attracts a lot of opinions from motorheads around the globe.
The C4 has a good track record and is used by rodders in a wide variety of projects.
Ride quality is a very subjective topic. Its known that the C4 was designed for handling and sacrificed some ride quality as a result of this.

"In 1988, the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) outlawed all Showroom Stock Corvettes from its racing events. The reason? The Vettes had not been beaten in three years of racing against the world's best sports cars, and their competitors complained so loudly that the sanctioning body finally had to act."

Read more: http://www.vetteweb.com/events/vemp_...#ixzz1lKrzBzl2

There are a wide variety of options out there, there are people who won't like my approach.

Bottom line, this is what I chose to go with and I am happy with the project so far.

It may be possible that the C4 you saw had worn suspension parts?

Fair enough.. As I have said, I didnt really do any research in that direction, so I didnt know the particulars or sacrifices.. It just seemed to be alot of work, and just wondered what the potential gain over other alternatives might be..

Great back and forth guys.

Robert, nice progress on St Marie. :thumbsup:
Do you have a build thread on that car posted somewhere else? I have not looked at other boards lately.

Daemon, nice work so far and I'd love to see how the car comes together with the IRS. I know I'm good with sheet metal and a few other mechanical/structural things, and at this point I wouldn't take on a project like reworking a rear suspension like you have. Unfortunately I know my limitations. I'd consider putting an unmodified IRS (unmodified geometry that is) onto a car, however I don't have the confidence to do what you are doing. I've seen a few cars (tri-5's and early 60's GM full size cars) with replacement frames and C4 Vette based IRS's, and I've heard nothing but praises and amazement from the owners of the cars. The C4 Vette has been tried and tested in many configurations, and most of those have been without narrowing the IRS too much. I'd really like to see how you put it together, and get your feedback on how it performs once it is together and you have had some time to put it through its paces, as the one thing that has come clear to me over this search for info is that anything can be done, it is just a matter of how well it works when it is put together. And does it do what you wanted it to do when you set out to put it together....

Having said all that, and since I'm not a suspension engineer, I'd prefer to let somebody else do the engineering and then tell me what can or can't be done with the set up. The one thing I don't want to do is waste a bunch of time, effort and money putting something together then finding out it won't work for what I wanted. Been there, done that, don't want to see that movie again.... :faint:

Keep the pictures coming and the explanations, as I've been watching several builds like this, and just seeing the pictures of these amazing cars come together really helps explain "the how" and "the why" of these builds. :cheers:

There is a Project Saint Marie Build thread here, just type it in.. The pieces below were developed, because we are building customer cars, and I wanted parts that would take the bulk of the work out of it, and offer consistancy during the build. We have our shop build cars, 2 customer pay builds, and 4 more on the waiting list.

As far as making mod's simple and painless goes, this is the bolt in kit solution I came up with.. The coil over conversion kit, has 5 inches of quick ride height adjustment, without affecting suspension travel. If you look at the design of bar, you will see that it puts all the Load back into the spring pockets, rather than transfer it to the inner unibody frame rails like alot of other setups. The Aluminum adjustable trailing arms/panhard bar, lets you dial everything in at any ride height, and has multiple Panhard Bar mounting locations. The rear ends are offered in 54, 55, 56 inch track widths, so you can dial in the potential wheel choices for better fitment.

The bolt in front end kit, is completly adjustable, and has 2 inch drop spinles for an option, along with a wide variety of braking and steering options. Neither the front or the rear kit involves, cutting, welding, etc, so it is very simple for the weekend warrior, with a typical garage and tools.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sion/001-2.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sion/013-1.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sion/011-2.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sion/016-1.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...sion/020-2.jpg

C4 front end and lap joints...
 

I have uncovered a mess of lap joints from the last person who worked on this thing. I'm not too excited about the extra work this will bring.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/lap%20joints.jpg

I took a break from replacing a few of these lapped patches to layout the C4 front end.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/rough%20layout.jpg

Here's the two together:
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/fron...0mock%20up.JPG

That looks pretty cool, but I do have a question. Do you plan on cutting away the original unibody structure on the front end? From my experience, the original body structure will not support the upper control arms at that length and width. The unibody upper control arm relief is not wide enough to accept any standard width arm through the opening.

I had to engineer some custom length arms, that would fit outside the unibody frame rails, in order to prevent the cutting away. This also added more engine bay room over the OEM, because the typical upper control arm intrusion was gone.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...azon/005-3.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...azon/006-3.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...Amazon/017.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...azon/012-4.jpg

Yea, I've pretty much moved away from any existing limitations of the original. Preserving the original unibody frame or internal body work wasn't a priority for me.
It's custom all the way now.:thumbsup:

Why?
 

This may help explain why:
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/front%20fr.JPG

When I opened up the frame rails all I found was rust, the construction makes them prone to collecting water and causes them to flake apart from the inside out.

I will end up with a custom frame under this car, so far I am about 150lbs lighter with the new frame and floor than what I cut out. Also a big advantage for where I am headed.

I should also note that this car, although appearing in great condition when I started, was nowhere near original.

Ah, I got it.. LOL I totally understand, and was really just curious how much of the original unibody front rails and body structure you were keeping.. From the looks of the unit, it didnt appear you were keeping much.. ha ha

reveal
 

The rendering arrived, thanks to Shawn@Mascoll Designs!
I have taken some cues from the 2009 Voxx rendering, its a shame no one has built that car.

I wanted more width and I think it came together very well.
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/Volv...Designs_SM.jpg

I am building that car (Project Changling)... LOL I have done about everything, and am hitting about 90 percent of the Vox Rendition. My glass company has started on the full glass treatment, including the full greenhouse roof/back glass and quarter glasses, and that should put the rendtions reality over the top..

Your rendition is very very cool, and you definitely got the correct stance. But you are going to find the front end is off a bit.. I ran into alot of issue with the front nose of this car, and the Vox Rendition.. There are so many compound curves that have to be dealt with, and in the drawing it is much easier than in reality, because the compound curves are not easy to translate in the drawing..

One question, do you plan on buiding up the trunk to surface? In the rendition, it is more squared off, and doest match up with the actual compound curve of the factory body. It looks as though you built up the trunk panel, to take away from the height of the fins?

definately a lot of compound curves on this car, you're right. The deck lid may come up, I will see how things look back there after I fit the wheels in.
Thanks for the comments.

One of my most frustrating weekends with the car since I got the thing. Finished some work on the rear crossmember but found more rust inside the rear rocker that I have to deal with now.
I suppose the good news is it will all be solid after I replace everything....:mad:

could be worse
 

I was letting the rust get to me then I found this:

http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/bent%20ii%20p1800.jpg

It looks like this one failed in the same places that I am fixing rust issues now on mine.

This weekend I hope to finish the front clip and possibly gets the front brakes and suspension put on before fitting it to the car.

I will have to re-enforce my sills and have a few ideas on how to approach this, more pics to come in a few days hopefully.:thumbsup:

This is a P1800e, looks kinda cool:
http://www.daemoncustomauto.com/p1800%20drag%20car.jpg