Floater setup--yes or no
 

I am getting close to the next mod on the car which is putting the Fab 9 housing under the car (Moser 3rd member--thanks John Parsons) and finally have what is called a positive traction device---evidently most of the PT cars have them. Since I am the only member of the "One Legged Jihad" team left, I feel I must give into peer pressure and adopt this two wheel driven fetish.

Anyhow, it's time to make the axle purchase and brake purchase in the next month or so. The brakes will be Baer Pro Plus with 14in rotors--this is what I have up front. So, herein lies my ask to you all---I will be running power brakes--DSE's setup on the master/booster and I don't hear folks complaining about knock back with power setups. If I am not mistaking, none of the DSE cars run floaters and I am making an assumption they don't have knockback issues. Perhaps this is a bandaid and knockback does actually exist, but isn't noticed due to the extra pressue on the calipers thanks to the power assist. I will spend the 2 to 3k on the floater if I must, but don't want to waste the time, money and effort if it's really not necessary. Maybe DSE changes their axle bearings every 3 months to prevent seal leaks, wear, flex, etc. I use my car at the track--it doesn't have sticky tires under it currently (320 treadwear) and it's not mini tubbed yet---having said that, it will at some point be minitubbed and run 200 treadwears--so if doing it right is the floater, then i'm in. Lay it out for me based upon your experience--

Doug

Never assume anything in this hobby. Put a floating caliper on it and retire early. Haha

DSE is currently retro fitting Kyle's Camaro with the new Baer floater. All power brakes do is mask the problem. If your serious about track events, do it. Also I know since your plan on using baer brakes, their floater requires is own end to be welded on so hopefully you don't already have a "done" housing.

I will have 2 baer floater set ups shipping to me this week hopefully and one is extra.

Lets disect the issues that a full floater can solve.

Brake knock back, this can also be solved with a floating caliper.

Excessive bearing wear or failure, a wheel with a centerline that line up with the centerline of the bearing can greatly reduce the moment load on the bearing, increasing life.

If you brake an axle your wheel will stay attached to the axle housing. I doubt any of us will brake a good alloy axle with 200 treadware tire, even with 1000hp and drag racing. You will just not have the traction to hook up the 7000ft-lbs of torque required to break a moser 31 spline axle.

Hey Dude!
 

First, glad your wife is on her way to recovery.

Dse changes the bearings and seals often. They drive hard and are at the shows to feature their merchandise. A failure is not an option. When they rebuilt the 69 for Optima they put the Baer floater set-up on the car...so they were running it in the 69 at Optima this year. Not sure about the 2nd gen.

The fluid volume helps hide the knock back with the fixed caliper brakes. If you do not mind the booster, I would run power brakes.

When I changed rear suspension in my car last year I went with the Moser floater. The DB unit (dual bolt pattern) It is 5x4.75 with 1/2 studs. The center register is 3.06 (which is a ford) I had them turn it down to 2.78 (Chevy) After getting the floater, I doubt that I would ever run anything different in a PT/track car if I owned it. The strength of the design and bearing spread make for a very safe and serviceable unit. It takes me longer to jack up the car, place it on jack stands and remove the wheels than it does for me to pull the axles and remove the hubs.

In my opinion there is no comparison to a standard 9 with the tapered or sealed bearing and the floater. But...and there is alway a but, the parking brake is an issue and how much lip you want on your wheels. I wanted to run a C6Z06 wheel offset, so I had plenty of room to package a custom parking brake. If you want 5 inches of lip on your wheel, it is going to be tough to do with a standard floater. The new one that is being developed that runs a C6 bearing pack and parking brake would solve all of that.

Doug, not sure if you still have my cell but give me a call 704-564-8577 and I can answer any questions you have. I have researched every floater set-up out there and can give you a ball park in cost and pros and cons of each one.

Here is what I did for a parking brake. Took my existing Wilwood hat with the intergal parking brake, machined out the center and attached it to a rotor adapter. Then machined out a bracket that is like a 9 inch flange and attached it to the floater to mount the ebrake/caliper mount.

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...g/DSCN3494.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/.../IMG951212.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/.../IMG959545.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/...g/DSCN3507.jpg

Doug- I have different opinion on both set ups... call me to discuss if you like.. or you can come out our way on the last week on January when we take out Blu Balz out to the Camarillo airport for a full day of abuse to shake the car out.. Suspension tuning & brake testing.. I will rent out the airport for a day for this testing.. Your welcome to bring out the 69.. It is looking like Jan 28th.. Week days are cheaper.. CHP will be out setting up cones & a course.. I hear the Ventura County CHP instructor is a great driver & instructor.. Hopefully the Pozzi's will be able to make it out also..

I do agree with Todd.. a floating caliper will keep problems down to a minimum.. Plus expense.. Floater rears require maintance but the best solution..

Doug,
I don't know where you get 2k to 3k number. You can buy a complete Moser 9" floater you specify the width for $879.

http://www.moserengineering.com/circ...floater-9.html

Just FYI, Once you have the 9" housing you can buy surplus center sections in virtually any ratio from any of the top NASCAR teams. I just purchased a refurbished center section with locker and polished ring & pinion gears from Roush/Yates for $850. Hendrick Motorsports also has a Performance Parts Div. which sells all manor of surplus parts.

Speedtech is in the final stages of putting together a floater that is totally different than the rest. It will be based on the ZR1 35 Spline rear hubs and will fit any standard Corvette brake package including Baer Brakes. you also get the factory wheel speed sensor that in the near future will be able to be used for traction control as well as ABS. you will need to upgrade to ZR1 front hubs also as they ZR1 and Z06 have different wheel speed sensors in them.

Nobody had a fix for a fixed caliper, now the market is flooded with options. Somebody start beating up their set up so we know which choice is the RIGHT one.

Floating hubs have been widely used in circle track racing for over 25 years and as a result the designs are proven, inexpensive, readily available and for the most part interchangeable between manufacturers. But floaters seem to be an emerging feature in PT builds and as such those of us who have gone that direction with conventional floaters have been forced to fabircate some brake parts in order to use 13" and 14" rotors. But there are just a couple of parts that if someone would start producing would allow the use of any conventional floater setup with big brakes. These items are 1. a rotor adaptor with a 12 on 8.750 bolt circle and 2. caliper brackets with a clamp on mount which could be tack welded to the housing once properly positioned.

The thing I have noticed in the PT community is that rather than using a conventional floater from established manufacturers which are reasonably priced then supplying the parts to mount big brakes, PT manufactures are re-inventing the wheel so to speak with unconventional non-standard floating setups which are different but not necessarily stronger designs and then charging nearly twice or more the price. I have a hard time swallowing these reinvented floaters selling for two or three times more, when you can buy a complete 9" floater from Moser for $879 in any width. I get the sense that these PT manufactures are trying to tap into an emering PT floater market and trying to get maximum profits and in process taking advantage of the PT community.

I know I talk up circle track floaters ad nausium, but I am simply trying to spread the word to the PT community that you can run 9" floaters from a slew of existing circle track manufacturers for very reasonable prices.

This isn't circle track.com These are street cars and I know you have 0 miles on your set up. It may prove to be a reliable street/track setup, but time will tell.

Watching with interest, have been researching this subject for a few months.

I have a floater in mine
 

from Moser and it has been fine. Which part do you not think will not be reliable?

Not all floaters will work in our cars from the circle track world. Most have 5/8 studs and a center register that would be too long to have a center cap on your rim. There are a couple of alternatives that will work.

The two that I found to be the best was the Moser DB floater and the Speedway unit. With the Speedway unit they will re-drill the hub to run 1/2 studs instead of the 5/8's. If I remember correctly, the Speedway housing, aluminum hubs redrilled and axles was around $1600. Moser price was listed above.

Is Speed Tech working with Chicane to produce and market his floater that is in development?

I just don't trust anything anymore until it's been tested for a reasonable duration. I like the sealed corvette bearing setup for a bullet proof solution. I bet speedtech and chicane are working together.

Todd,

With respect, I gotta say the circle track floater setups especially those from speedway have more hours of testing and abuse to prove the design than anything the PT community is bringing out right now. The only un-known if you will is the braking packages. However they are also unknowns on the PT specific floater packages. I would have no issue running any of the Moser, Speedway, AFCO products from the circle track world on any Street Track Car or All Out Track car for that matter. There are parts being sold to the PT community for multiple times the price you can get them for from the racing world. Not all, but some. I think as long as anyone does their research and is comfortable with their own decisions it is not an issue. But, back to topic, the "circle track" floaters are top notch. That Corvette Sealed Bearing setup as part of a floater is the least tested solution mentioned in this thread. Mark S. has the only real time on them, that i have been able to find. I certainly take his word for its performance, but that is only 1 test so far. I hope all these solutions pan out. The more choices, the better the pricing. We all win! I certainly am not trying to argue with you, just impart some of the benefit of my past research when I was a circle track racer! :cheers:

Yes would be the short answer.
This Set up is all OEM stuff, ZR1 Corvette, so i figure it has been tested already. the packaging is super tight also no special wheels the off set should not change from a standard 2.5" ford , i will need to confirm that.

[QUOTE=ccracin;389494]Todd,

That Corvette Sealed Bearing setup as part of a floater is the least tested solution mentioned in this thread. Mark S. has the only real time on them, that i have been able to find. I certainly take his word for its performance, but that is only 1 test so far.

Other than all the testing GM has done ofcourse. :cheers:
the only part of the set up that is any different than a factory Corvette is the Billet housing end.
speedtech is excited to be able bring this product to market.

[QUOTE=killer69;389498]I knew the way I worded that was going to come back and bite me! :lol: You are correct, but the billet end housing is also mounted to a live axle being driven by a floating axle and not an IRS knuckle being driven by a CV stub shaft. (If that has any importance at all:lol: ) My point was that the circle track floater as an assembly minus only different brake packages has been tested and well proven for years and years. I agree with your point, but the complete assembly to Todd's point has not. Don't get me wrong Blake from what Chicane has shown I think it is a great piece and solves the down sides of the racing floaters applied to the street. That's what all this is all about. Getting better and pushing the envelope. Everyone has their own set of criteria when buying. As I also said before if you do your research and make an informed decision and you are happy, Excellent! The more choices the better. If one of Todd's criteria is testing than he needs to make choices based on that. Another guy may want the latest trick part regardless of testing, so be it. I have no doubt you will have success with this part. I just wanted to throw out that the quote"circle track" stuff is well tested and proven. :cheers:

Tested and well proven on the racetrack. Not 10,000 miles on the street. I may be dead wrong but often times RACE parts don't make for reliable street parts. A tried and tested GM ZR1 hub is tested. I agree the adaptation could cause issues. The ZR1 hub set up isn't really a floating design. If it's good enough for a ZR1 it's to good for me. :lol:

I was not getting defensive. and do agree that RACE parts are not always the BEST Sterrt parts, actually in alot of cases probably exactly the opposite, like say aluminum connecting rod.
The ZR1 hubs are the part of Choice due to the fact that they have 35 splines, and the larger bearing pack and thicker wheel flange compared to the standard C5 / Z06 rear hub.
another good point Todd "If it's good enough for a ZR1 it's to good for me."
but some people just have a different piont of view, and those consumers is who these products are aimed at, no doubt about it.

When I said to good, I meant no way in hell I'd be able to compromise the part. That's EXACTLY what I want. :thumbsup:

It's hard to argue that! :thumbsup:

Sorry i mis understood :_paranoid

Thanks for the feedback. Payton, yes, still have your number and thanks for the offer. Will hope to reach out and connect this weekend.

I am aware that several types and brands of floater setups are out there, including the circle track components. Having some friends in the "Rearend Business" (and i'm not referring to Dave Gordon--just because he lives in San Fran), i've had some conversations with Currie and and few others about the various setups they would typically reccommend for what I was doing. The honest answer back was that they didn't have anyone they knew driving long distances plus tracking the car. It's not what a floater was designed to do---doesn't mean it won't work in that manner--(I am quoting here on these 2points). Thus, i am left with only those of you with real world experience and what exactly that experience has been like for you up to this point.

I got the 2 to 3 thousand dollar figure from the cost of the parts and the labor to install on my housing plus the extras I don't know about.

Thank you again for the input. I do believe that a true floater setup is safer and more durable, which is appealing also.

FYI, i do know one sure method to cure knock back---convert back to drum brakes. Mine still work--but I continue to take severe abuse everywhere I go.

Doug

Doug, if you have your heart set on those big pretty Baer calipers, go for it. If you think you need a floater, and you want to shell out the cash, get one of those too. Personally, if I were running fixed calipers I'd get one of these floater contraptions, be it Speedway's, or the soon to be released Speed Tech piece), etc. We tend to do what we want in this hobby, because it is exactly that - a hobby. A lot of our decisions are based on what makes us happy and fits our budget. Hell, I buy stuff because it looks cool, it sounds impressively engineered, and it is supposed to work well, (pro touring companies must have good marketing departments :lol: ) Anyway you've been around cars long enough to know that no two of our cars are alike, and as such there is no such thing as modern OEM reliability. We can each tell you what works for us, or what doesn't, but I bet that even if you copied one of our exact setups you'd get different results. You've been around cars so long you know there are pros and cons to everything. Picking parts isn't exactly a crap shoot, but everything works a little differently for each unique car.

Anyway, for some reason tonight I felt like summerizing points brought up in most of the floater discussions I've read and adding a few of my own points. haha, here it goes, with named and numbered setups:

1. the purple car version 1: 7/8" manual master cylinders and fixed calipers on conventional axles, i.e. torino big bearings with big wheels. This sucks!

2. the Vegas Special I don't know if there are other things that constitute a "Vegas Special," but we're talking about cars here. 1" master cylinders with tapered bearings and floater calipers. Todd says they're not half bad!Then again, Payback has a ZL1 that, Doug, makes everything on his car a touch better than our little small block low riders.

3. DSE: power booster with big ass fixed calipers and torino bearings. It works? Kyle checks the tolerances on every bearing going into his car because some are manufactured tighter than others. I wish this was an urban legend among the pro-touring community. Actually maybe it is, maybe it will be. Maybe Kyle is trying to psych us all out, but seeing as how he is an engineer, I think inspecting each and every bearing is more likely. Anyway, that s*** is intense - checking EVERY bearing to try and get rid of knock back. :faint: Lastly, let's not forget Kyle doesn't need fancy floating axles to beat us. He just drives better than us because he kind of does this for a living now.

4. Finch's King of every event Camaro DSE setup plus a 10lb residual pressure valve. I think it probably still had a little knock back...

5. purple car version 2: manual brakes and fixed calipers on a floater from Speedway Engineering. It works, and has been for 7000 miles!

6. "Lateral Dynamic's" Mark's old Camaro that no one remembers This thing probably existed sometime before written history up to 7ish years ago? so we can't be sure if it had manual brakes, power brakes, or Flinstone foot brakes. It probably had Wilwood fixed brakes. It also had a Moser circle track floater. Every time I see Mark he tells me it was garbage, and the the tolerances weren't good.

7. Dead Cat version 2: Newer than Mark's. Manual brakes and fixed calipers on a floater by Moser. It works!

8. ZR1 hub based floater It seems to have been invented simultaneously between Chicane and Steilow, kind of like how Newton and Leibniz both independently invented Calculus. Surely this must be revolutionary. Steilow claims it accommodates ABS functionality, stops knock back, and leaking... I think. It even stops leaking? every axle I've had leaks. I need to buy one of these to try out on my next project.

9. What works for Ford... Most new cars have IRS setups. The Mustang still uses a live axle. It also uses power brakes and floating calipers. Even the Grand Am Mustang race cars use that dinky little floating caliper.

10. The Renner mobile: If we all applied the logic of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," perhaps all of us would be running around with drum brakes on our old solid axle vintage cars. Sadly this is not the case, and I shed a tear as you move on from your days of one-legged-jihading it up with those self energizing prototype rear drum brakes. If you post them for sale I want first shot at them since I gave you a deal on that subframe...

*EDIT* 11. ... A pretty Penny How could I forget about Steve's car. If you bought it, you wouldn't have to worry about knock back. He has a 1" manual master cylinder with fixed calipers and tapered bearings. When Currie put in the tapered bearings they made sure to straighten the axle because previous work on it had caused it to warp, I believe.

Other things that may or may not work...
Hydroboost? anyone have experience with hydroboost and knock back?

Also, Stacey now has a Baer floater. Seems like everyone has been getting a few in for the last year and a half, and yet Stacey's car has the only one I've ever seen. we all have every reason to assume that it works, but damn is it expensive.

I'm sure I missed something, so feel free to something, anything...

Matt

for the record, baer floater uses speedway made parts, and at least with the quadralink, Wes at DSE pretty sure they reused the same backspacing even after the conversion so the "dish look" is maintained which may not be able to do with some of the other aftermarket suspensions

Whoa whoa whoa... I thought I had to only worry about Todd on this one... now YOU are gonna go there? You BASTAGE!! :lol:

You don't post much no more Dougie... but when you do.... you drink Dos Equis? :cheers:

My two cents...If you are going to track your car and push it hard I would do a floater. If you are going to street drive your car and maybe hit the track once a year for a fun day I wouldn't worry about it. I hate puck knockback. Jackass has it and it really gets your attention when you are doing 100 mph, hit the brakes and the pedal drops instead of slowing the car. You simply need to hit the pedal again but when you are running out of stopping room it really gets your attention. For any people that don't know what knock back is...When there is slop in the bearings or slop anywhere, the rotor flexes, when it flexes it pushes the piston behind the brake pad back into the cylinder. When you step on the brakes you waste the first push on the brakes just getting that brake pad back out to the rotor. You then hit the brakes again to actually apply the brakes.

With how fast JA is I'll bet hitting the brakes with no results the first time will test your scones.

All I can say is when I ran 5 sessioins at Buttonwillow with 2 year old axle bearings, I had 0 knockback. :D For once I took the economical route and it works. I do want to switch to a 7/8 master eventually and that could change things. Your real problem is Baer doesn't offer a decent floating caliper. You are forced into a floating rear end if you want 0 knockback. If you aren't in a hurry, give it some time for this new baer setup along with the Speedtech to get some miles under their belts. I also feel if you keep the rear wheel lip where it is currently, you will have less knockback naturally. A 5.25/5.5" BS on a 12" rim looks great but it puts a ton of leverage on a bearing. Matt over at Art Morrison calculated it for me and it is 5 or 10 times greater(Don't remember) than what the bearing was engineered for originally. FYI Have you ever seen a deep dish on a Corvette.:unibrow:

Purple Car, second edition---LOL. Great summary and great feedback. With your setup are you able to run the parking brake?

D

I do stay thristy my friend--but mostly for Apple Pie.

:hail: :faint: This is the most Charley has ever said.... and a technical post as well!!:thumbsup: :D

No knock back on the Mustang.... so do I owe you more money? Or is it that I just can't drive it fast enough.... :lol:

Ya, that makes total sense---the more lip the more leverage ability it would have/create along with the tire and its much larger contact patch. I like the approach of not being in a hurry as you know---I have been watching a couple of cars with these setups in them---but like Matt said, everyone is using them a bit differently. James Shipka and Matt---possibly Payton--have the most street miles on their cars at this point with these setups in them. I only want to do this once and not regret it later---would rather go with too much than not enough given future plans for the car--you know how that goes. The thought of what you have described to me (I beleive it was at Optima event when we were there with you car) and Charlie's description of hitting the brakes at that kind of speed and having to pump the pedal---there's just no way I am going to take the chance. Pay now, or pay later.

Doug

You guys should appreciate that more if you watch "Moonshiners" on the TV -- I had no idea just how much trouble a guy could get into...

Gawd I'm glad I don't drink (anymore).... so I can still feel my lips.

So I've wondered why my knockback seems to be mininal compared to you other guys with your fancy wheels and I guess this explains it? Maybe I should just keep the damn Vette wheels.... :D

Nah, you just don't drive fast enough. :D

Better than that, I think someone here is livin it. :wow:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...es/ginfull.jpg

Floater,Yes.:thumbsup:

Hey, all my favorite theadjackers are here! Greg, Scott, Matt, Skip, Todd & DG---I guess things are back to normal in my world---now, if only IronWorks would say something--I'd feel complete.