Forged 418 ls3. Goal: 800ish rw daily, 1000-1500capable. Lets talk boost..
 

disclaimer: I don't want to have a three page debate about 1000hp as it pertains to words like "drivable" and "street friendly".

Here goes: As clearly as i can convey it, I'm looking for as close to stock ls3 manners as possible. I don't want any problems cruising around in anything from 40-100 degrees, even if it happens to be stop and go for hours. Obsolutely NO sputtering, surging, or stalling. Its Also going to be used for slow speed autocross as well, so factor that. Money is not exactly an issue but im not clamoring to call nre or anything;), if it costs a little bit more to get it right ill deal. So Which and why? I'm not against turbos, roots blowers or even centrifugals if It could be set up nicely for autocross. Opinions on the cooling aspect are welcomed as well..

I would build a similar styled motor to what Stielow built for the Mayhem 67 Camaro.. Roger

http://bangshift.com/blog/sema-2012-...-car-ever.html

I built a 427 LS for a guy using a pair of Precision 6765's. It made 997 to the wheels through an unlocked 80E. It is an absolute animal to drive but is very tame as well. He autox's and does a few track days too.

Throw a pair of turbos on it and call it day. Make sure to put coolers on everything and dont skimp on the radiator. Get a custom cam speced as well.

What state are you located in? There are a lot of talented builders all over the US. Kurt urban is one builder I would definitely use.

I'm running a 416 with a F1A Pro Charger with a very mild cam it makes 834 RWHP, sits in traffic without even thinking about overheating and gets right at 19.5 mpg out on the highway. With a meth. Kit it will make over 900RWHP, but Im happy with 834.
Either way you go there will be pros and cons. Pro Chargers rob allot of horsepower but you don't have the heat and plumbing issues that you do with a turbo set up. Turbo will easily make more power and defiantly looks cooler.
My experience running the autocross with that much power is that it is more like drifting because of the traction issue.

We just put a 418 from Texas Speed into a 02 TA. Through the 4l80e unlocked it made 471 NA on pump. 3600 stall the car drives awesome! No surging, stalling, etc. this is with their LS7X cam.

I believe 100% that the "Tuner" is worth his/her weight in gold. I believe I have one of the best around he always delivers! No matter how calm or crazy the setup the "tuning" makes or breaks the whole deal.

Think there Are there any belt-less drives out there that are worth looking At? How does the power come on as your rpms climb? Define mild cam? WhAt psi? apologies if I missed any of this in your build thread. Any sputtering or surging at all ever? I guess a tvs or something won't make 1000hp+ easily huh? Isn't stielow running that 67 around 800whp. I'm a far cry from having his driving skills, but he seems to keep it between the cones nicely with that much power.

Thanks for the opinions guys. I feel like ive somewhat got a grip on the situation and I'm honestly fairly close to a decision. I have a very decent boosted LS guy here locally and he and I have already collaborated on a few things including a 408 lq9 topped with a Kenne bell 2.8l (Search my thread posts and you'll find the picture). It made 700whp in Denver (which is where this current car is being built) in a 4700lb suv on 22's,

however, to your point J2, its a little choppy and ever so slightly surge prone. I still wonder if it was the tune. It has all the proper supportive fuel system mods and everything and really runs almost perfect for the most part. Only In hot stop and go does it run anything but like butter, and even then never dies or anything. I cant remember the cam specs but ill look. It's not a big one I'm sure. Even The dynograph was nice and smooth. Anyway, basically Im shooting for as close to STOCK drivability as possible and ill take concessions where I have to.

That's what I'm talking about! Ill just come out and say that This is my chosen route unless someone convinces me an sc can make the same power with the same drivability. I'll admit I'm mondo worried about the cooling as this car is definitely going to see HOT weather, stop and go, very probably some power tour type things, and even some higher speed track events eventually. care to elaborate on the cooling aspect? even Pm me if you like.

No belt-less drives unless you go with a couple turbo s. A Pro Charger does have a bit of lag at first mine starts coming in hard around 3k, I shift at 6500. It will break the tires loose at 50 in 3rd gear and makes this power with 16psi of boost. If you are putting this in a SUV I would go with a twin turbo set up. I had the tuner ride around with me for 45 minutes tuning inthe driving part so I have no issues there. You need to find a good tuner that has patience to dial it in for you. So many of them think they are done after you dyno it and get the power out ofIt but they need to ride in the car drive it for a while to work out the kinks.

It's a car and bears a striking resemblance in general shape anyway to yours;). I hear you about the tuner. He was pretty patient but my current could use more tweaking for sure.

As much as I like turbos, if my goal was autocrossing I would not be using turbos. Boost isn't always there and I think it would go from a soft pedal response to frying the tires pretty quick. I'm sure turbo sizing could help with that, but it'll never match a roots or n/a setup for predictable throttle response, which is key with an autocross car.

My next track car will probably be a roots type blower.

Jody,
Which roots blower would you buy if you had to buy one right now?

X2?? More specifically for my personal desires, which roots on the market makes the most reliable boost right now? I love my kb suv. Its uber responsive and BEASTLY. Are the cooling issues to deal with based on like say a gigantic Kenne bell really any less of a problem than turbos?

I really haven't done all the research yet, as I'm no where near that point. The factory GM ZR1 blower, Harrop, Magnacharger, Whipple, KB are all good blowers and have their own advantages and disadvantages. I'll probably just call Stielow and let him decide for me. :lol:

Heat management with turbos is a completely different thing. Turbos are very efficient, they'll make more power per boost level than any of the blowers with the right turbo(s). Air temps look good too comparatively, but managing the exhaust heat of the headers/manifolds and turbo housings requires a lot of work and thought. My Chevelle would get hot at idle with the stock hood and inner fenderwells. The air under the hood could not get out and would just get hotter and hotter, actually raising the engine temp. Removing the inner fenderwells or cracking the hood open and the engine wouldn't break 190 even in 100+ temps and a/c on at idle for 30 minutes. So it was not a radiator/fan issue, it was directly because of the turbos. And I had the headers coated, the downpipes wrapped, and bags on the turbo exhaust housings.

Under power things get even worse. These things can be addressed, but mainly because you mentioned autocross specifically it made me lean towards a regular blower. Instant torque will be better and easier to modulate on a tight course in my opinion.

As the old saying goes, you can't bake your cake and eat it too. If you want to road race and autocross your protouring car with over 1000 hp, you are in for a real wake up call. It's hard enough to keep them cool with 650hp from my experience. Stielow has mentioned the complexity of cooling his 750 plus hp supercharged set up recently. Unless you want a car that's going to be a 3 pump chump and overheat at every event, I'd pull back the reigns. IMO, it just won't work in a protouring car that gets used off the street. Now, in a street car, drag racer, and very light autocrosser, you could get by with it. It all comes down to your ideals. Personally, I like a car that's capable of doing anything I want with it. Engineered to take any curve ball you can throw at it.

From my experience, you build them and then your ideals change. I started out building a street car that was going to be shown once and a while and ended up with a show car that I raced all the time.

Noted. Thx Jody your turbo experience is definitely helpful

You bring some great points. Let me be a little more specific. First off my intentions were never to autocross the car at the 1000 hp level. The mere notion of that is simply ridiculous. In fact Rarely will it ever be driven at that level, however we WILL make something very close to 1000 on pump gas just to say we did, period. I also have friends with 700-800hp cars and we all haggle each other about whos faster stoplight to stoplight, plus im planning on a few standing mile events, so occasionally it will see max boost. I confess im still on the fence about the power adder, but I dd an a&a'd Vette in the summer with just a cam'd ls2 and an upgraded radiator that makes 600whp at 9.5psi and NEVER GETS A SMIDGE HOT OR HAS ANY TROUBLE, period, so I already know that the 600-700hp range über reliably is easily doable with a centrifugal, although obviously not creating the even power throughout the range that a roots will make.

For the record, the breakdown goes something like this: 30% autocross, 40% cruiser (including some longer trips: power tour-ish type things), 20% speciality events like the Texas mile and possibly some higher speed road course and race track type stuff later on. And last, 10% show car; i don't really care about that right now. I'll probably just attend the local shows that are close and convenient. Personally when I think of people talking about regret in "driving their showcar" it mainly refers to the 20k paint job. And I'm completely avoiding that for now. I'm going to save the details for a possible build thread later, but I digress.

I definitely agree with most of what you're saying, but then again I would never build a 150k car with a carb'd motor either:P. So truly, to each his own. Honestly my end goal is pretty much what you said, verbatim; to build something that can handle whatever I throw at it. I guess im really trying to just bake my cake eat as much of it as i can. I'd be an idiot if I didn't agree that there will be bumps in the road along the way, but I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on it. Im just digging the ability to pick some great brains here as I go. Do you miss your car yet? I wish I'd have had enough to just dump it on yours all at once, it was way more than worth what you got for it. Then again I know i would've cringed every time I looked close at that mirror black paint after an event

Have you seen the Kenne bell liquid cooling systems? Ive talked to Jeff at Tpe there in Vegas a few times since kb started drilling cooling holes in those and he spoke highly of them

Absolutely nothing wrong with a carbureted motor. People drove them for decades. There has been test after test to see which system, fuel injection vs. carburetor, performed better. The results have nearly always been the carburetor gets the slight edge. Drag racers nearly exclusively run carburetor. I had the choice and chose carburetor over FI. Sure the FI will be more reliable, consistent and get slightly better mileage, but I'm not building a daily driver. I expect and want to be able to tinker around with my toy, even if that means I have to perform routine tweaks to keep the carb running consistently.

Vegas69 built a phenomenal car and then took it out every chance he had to bash on it. His car performed better than most hope to even close to. All with a carburetor. I would take heed to what he says. His experience has been documented all over this site

Wheres jody dammit! The title of this thread wasn't supposed to be "FI VS CARBS":willy: :willy: seriously, Mad respect to Todd, the guys got kills squared and anything he has to say, I'm more than listening. I applaud him most for beating the snot out of his car. Like I said right after I ribbed him a tad about the carb; TO EACH HIS OWN. And I truly meant that. I have as much if not more respect for the guys that go old school rather than going the easy route. I'm not even 1/10th the mechanic Todd is, and that's some fraction of the reason I would never go carb, although most of it has to do with the admissions that YOU ALREADY CONCEDED.

"Sure the fi will be more reliable, consistent, and get better gas mileage"....

but who the hell wants that, right?!? :lol: honestly im not even sure i completely agree with all of that. I've had several carbed cars that ran fine. Hell, next For my mopar ill build a big old obnoxious legit hemi that gets 1/2 Mile to the gallon for you, k? LIKE I SAID, THIS car is going to motivate under the power of an ls3 thats already half done;). Plans AS OF NOW are about 40/60 autocross/cruiser. if you want to say something conctructive, READ WHAT I WROTE and do so. Otherwise, Thanks for the hot tip, and im sure todd appreciates the strokin, but lets get BACK ON TOPIC...

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/S...SCCAM3.6LC.htm??

Watching Camaro xv come along makes me just want to give up and buy something turn key from Thomson:willy: hahaa

would adjustable boost from twins and turning it down to a nice low setting pre-track be enough to forgo any heat issues?

Let me just say that my main concern through all this is really temps on everything..

And I know ultimately there's no magic pill.

Thats the beauty of turbo stuff, the extreme adjustability.

To expand on the cooling aspect of it, basically you will need an air to air intercooler out front to keep the intake air temps in check but try to make that the only part in front of the radiator. If you try to put an oil cooler, trans cooler, intercooler, ps cooler out front, by the time the air reaches the radiator its pretty baked.

The key to quick transient response for an almost blower type feel, is having a well matched system. Most importantly the specs on the turbos and cam.

Ceramic coating is pretty much a gimmick. It looks nice but its so thin that it doesnt really do much. Swain tech coatings are actually thick enough to keep the heat down but the whole system needs to be thought out with emphasis on keeping the turbo piping down low in the car and proper engine compartment venting. As Jody mentioned, if there isnt any airflow, it will bake in there.

I was simply making a comment to your, holier than though, fi better than carb comment. Have fun with your already beat to death topic playing in an unrealistic build. Carry on...

.

What? I'm sorry I wasn't listening......

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/...er/photo-8.jpg

I wonder if we can get Stielow to start using a carb instead of FI lol

It's the 20% of the time you need to worry about. The standing mile stuff won't be a problem due to high speed operation and short duration. It's the road racing where you are all over it for long duration or hot lapping it in autocross that will be your achiles. Huge coolers on everything with that power level and how do you package them effectively? There isn't that much real estate up front on these cars.

I wouldn't build a 150k car with a carb either. :lol: If mine was 150k it would've had a fabricated intake and injection. I started building my car in 2006, things have changed a little in the meantime. The new owner is planning to inject it at some point due to his desire to have near oem cold starts and no heat soak due to modern fuels. I was done bleeding on the project and the carb served me well on and off road.

I really don't miss it, the 5+ years of build, working on it, 30+ events, and 7k street miles put out the flame.

At the end of the day, if you are trying to achieve things that haven't been done before, you are going to have to approach it differently or realize that it's just unreasonable. I don't think a 1000+ hp twin turbo car can do it all without some serious engineering. Prove me wrong...:P

If you'd like to see a complete DISASTER of a twin turbo 1000+hp car try to compete...

Just watch the video of the LAMBO at OPTIMA OUSCI this year...

:rofl: :thumbsup:

Those TT Gallardo's are only good for standing miles and 60-130 blasts. That's it.

Greg, I think the problem was that the Lamborghini owner never went to Bondurant. ;)

Nick was faster in the Street Rodder '40 Ford.

I'm also of the opinion that twin turbos are a bad idea on a multi-purpose car. Josh Kalis' twin turbo Camaro is putting out 1000 horsepower, and he drives it on the street all the time, but he doesn't road race or autocross it. I think the real question is how much of a competitive nature you have. after you start attending events are you going to start making changes to try to place higher and turn in quicker times, or are you just going to have fun and not worry about wanting to get faster, or having a car that can't run more than 10 minutes at a time without overheating on the track?

1000hp is about as far away as you can get from a stock mannered ls3.

Are you just wanting bragging rights with the 1000hp goal?

well he sold the car for 90k. says he took a 50k bath on the deal, im sure that has nothing to do with the labor hours he put in. So your saying jcg or dse would've built me one exactly like it for way under 150? BS. No disrespect man, after all, guys like you and todd are the ones I was hoping to get opinions from, but READ WHAT I WROTE. I NEVER EFFING SAID I WAS TRYING TO ROAD RACE THE **** OUT OF A 1000hp car..

spot on.. pretty much exactly the deal. I would like to build a setup that we proved on paper makes 1000 dyno horse, and I would like to street race with some of the rich brats i know that have higher hp cars, and I would love to have that power at a standing mile events But 90% of the time Im only looking for 600-700 hp probably max, especially at any event where its going to get ridden hard.

What are you talking about and who are you talking to? I think you are confused here.

I am laughing at Todd's statement -- not you -- Todd and I are friends.

Of course JCG or DSE will not build you a car like that for what Todd did. Todd did most of the work himself. Apples to oranges.

And I have no idea what you are talking about with your effing... road race... 1000hp comment... I was referring to Greg's comment about how well (or not well) that TTG did at Optima.

I am not against you here.

Nitrous comes to mind with the exception of a standing mile run...street racing huh? I'm not sure I would want to take a chance of building a 1000hp motor to take a chance of the local PD confiscating the car. Huge loss there along with all the legal costs/time that would endure. Also, the motor costs would be only part of the equation. You also have to factor in a transmission, rear differential, drive shaft and suspension that could handle that amount of power. To put a package of that degree together, and do so correctly, could put you nearly half the cost of that $150,000 car you were speaking of.

Hey matt, I was wondering what you thought about all this, you seem to be someone who didnt know much, but dove in headfirst and survived. You bring a good point about ones goals. Personally, It not like I'm trying to take on stielow or danny p or anything at the bigger events, and I'm not far enough along to really be able to even know how competitive im going to want to be after getting my feet wet at a few events. I'd like to say yes, I'll be tweaking to get better results, but for now it's hard to say until I actaully get to that point. Could just be fun in the end but I do like to comete. Time will tell. For now I just now I want to do something that is versitle enough to do a little bit of everything. And for the record, I dont, nor did I ever, have the illusion of road racing a 1000 car, twin turbos or otherwise.:beathorse

thanks for weighing in, love the camaro but I think I like the mustang even more. Cant wait to see it rolling.

Who ever said you did?

agreed on the cost. We'll see. I wont claim I have more sense than money. I'd like to split is close to half n half. I am great at budgeting and have and I've been going over all this planning it for a good while. This is going to sound horrible and ridiclouly ricer, but I would probably only be roll racing. Even with a ls9 clutch stielow says hes maxing it out a 750hp or whatever his power number is...and that he wouldnt drag race his setup.. when you see the suspension components youre going to groan even more about the drag racing aspect. OF COURSE, ANY STREET RACING I DID WOULD BE IN MEXICO:thumbsup:

No one here is trying to flame you, we are just trying to bring you into reality. I can be very frugal with my money as well, but there are some things you simply can't cut costs. Building a 1000hp motor is not something that can be done on a budget. I suppose you could build it with subpar parts, but its just gonna be a one-hit-wonder...One and done...Get my drift?