3 point belt systems
 

I'm considering one of these harness systems and looking for input. No cage in the car at this time, most likely a Tiger Cage in the future. In the interim I need better upper body restraint and these appear to be the best options and will work with my lower-end Recarro seats with detachable headrests utilizing the inboard rear seat belt mounts.

I'm leaning toward the Sparco's as they would utilize the current Simpson belt mount eyelets.

http://www.schrothracing.com/pimg/sm/RALLYE_3_1.jpg

http://www.sportseats4u.co.uk/images...4608DFNR1l.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-C...-CZ73MJT-M.jpg

Thanks :thumbsup:

I just recently bought a set of Sparco's and like the quality, but I was a little disappointed when I called them to find out about replacement straps and was told they don't sell individual straps. So if you want to simply replace one of the harnesses in your system(ripped, scuffed, faded, cut, burned, try a different size, whatever), you have to buy the entire kit over again. That's kinda rediculous if you ask me. Not sure if Schroth sells individual belts, but it might be something to consider as an 'advantage' if they do.

Thanks Chris. :thumbsup:

With the 3-point design and cost I can understand why replacement harness parts aren't available though tail-straps are.

These belts are a bandaid to insure me from Murphy's Law until I get a cage in the car. :D

I am looking for harnesses also. The Sparco seems to be about half the price so maybe I will get those ones.

John - I think the price difference is due to the Schroth belts being DOT approved where Sparco is not. I've been looking at a lot of options, actually too many. I don't have a cage yet so "correct" mounting options are limited. I'm leaning to the Schroth even though the price is higher because they appear to have a better buckle for adjusting and the ASM system to prevent submarining, not because of DOT. Also the offer a more tuning belt shoulder harness mount options than Sparco.

In my car with the older Recaro seats I can run the shoulder harness through the head rests since the mount rods are space 9.5" apart and Schroth's stated minimum is 4.5". The problem is a suitable rear anchor point. Using string and an angle finder the line from the headrest to rear seat belt mounts is 48-50* from level ground. Stated minimum is 45* but that is far from desirable if you look at racing harness regulations which are roughly 10* +/- from the shoulder level. The other issue with the rear belt mounts is they don't allow a straight line from the mount to the seat back due to interfence from the bottom of the seat back. To get straight-line pull the seat back would need to be slotted.

Using a single tail strap off the harness and utilizing the factoring shoulder belt mount isn't a good angle in the Camaro either IMO. Using the rear passenger shoulder mount location on the package tray next to the speaker opening appears very weak (even if a backing plate is used) for a single mount if subjected to a major frontal impact. That's why I'm leaning towards the Schroth Rallye 4 and using two reinforced mount points in the package tray. The rear seat back is about 1.25-1.5" higher than the package shelf which means ideally the mount surface should be at least 1" higher than the package shelf. The quick way might be bolt or weld in a piece of 1x2 tubing behind the seat back and anchor to that. :headscratch: All these factors make a Tiger Cage tempting.......with the exception of cost in my current situation!

Package tray
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Q...-Q6NPfw6-L.jpg
The seat centerline is very close to the center of the speaker opening. The factory rear shoulder belt mount is at 7:30 1" from the speaker opening.

Rallye 4
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/pimg/RALLYE_4_1.jpg

Rallye 3 for comparison:
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/pimg/RALLYE_3_1.jpg

Just remember that Schroth manufactures Sparco belts. They are the same thing with a different insignia, and is why Sparco won't sell individual belts.

Thanks I did not know that. It still appears that Schroth uses an upgraded buckle, correct? It also explains the DOT and non-DOT cert. as their bases are covered.

I had the Schroths with the inertia-reel on my last car and found them to be very comfortable when just cruising and with the Recaro "Sport" seats they fit very well. What makes them "DOT legal" was the OEM-style buckle (and going through the certfication process). They'll be on my new Firebird as well!

Something else to consider is that the systems you are considering have the potential to cause you to submarine under the lap belt during a crash. The shoulder harnessses can pull the lap belt up when under tension.

A good retractable 3-point like the Morris Classic Concept is the best bet since it mimics the OE-style pass-through buckle that creates tension in the lap belt during a crash. When going beyond that, to a 5 or 6-point setup, a submarine belt is needed and installed per the manufacturers specifications.

Yeah, I know, it's a pain. I just finished reworking mine since the sub belt was not correct. Think Schroth 6-point mounted in the Formula arrangement. I'll post up info in the Honor Flight thread soon.

Carl - Thanks for your input.

These are the "casual" belts I was considering: https://www.seatbeltplanet.com/seatb...n-retractable/

I made these mounts for the shoulder belt to bolt in to:
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-c...-csqxdgQ-L.jpg

Is going with the non-retracting style a mistake? My thought was I could snug them up when desired and reaching inward or to the glove box should still be an option.

Regarding submarining, the Schroth ASM system made sense though I have no first hand experience or desire to test. :D

Resurrection.......

I've decided to install 3 point retractable belts up front vs harnesses until a roll bar is installed. I'm leaning towards this simple design from Seatbelt Planet:

https://www.seatbeltplanet.com/sites...0-330-crop.jpg

https://www.seatbeltplanet.com/seatb...cts/25/view/57

Morris Classic Concept is the other consideration but I don't like the retractor position that leaves two belt straps and the retractor in the small opening behind the seat which I tend to use frequently. Also the visible shoulder mount extension in the quarter window isn't as cleanest a visually.

I'm speculating where to mount the retractor unit. I'd like it inconspicuous but do not want to compromise mount strength and function. Here's what I thinking:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-J...Jnc4xWm-XL.jpg

The retractor hides in the corner and allows plenty hip clearance when I'm sitting in the rear seat, though the rear seat seldom gets use in this car.

I believe I could use a strap similar to the photo below to mount the retractor to the floor/rocker area, reinforcing the mounting point if necessary.

https://www.seatbeltplanet.com/sites...0-330-crop.JPG

I'd appreciate your advice, concerns, and suggestions. :thumbsup

Why Not Something Like This

Sorry to be so harsh, but those two images of belt "systems" will get someone badly hurt or worse. If you haven't already, read this:

http://www.schrothracing.com/sdocs/2...structions.pdf

I'm sorry for missing this reply so long ago. I used the Schroth retracting harness just for ease of use and the ability to lock it in place when on a race course. It was in my 1989 Camaro and to reach most anything is a stretch in 3rd Gen cars so being able to reach forward and have the belt slack and retract was a definite plus. For the shoulder mounts I had a bar made that mimicked the roof line with plates welded on the ends that anchored to the OEM retractor mounts (at the top, forward edge of the b-pillars) with the bolts for the harness about 8" inboard from the mounts. They were comfortable enough to use in daily driving and a pretty slick set-up that didn't interfere with seat reclining or repositioning for different drivers. I have a photo somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up...

No worries, I just did a search for "5 point harnesses w/o a cage" then copied and pasted the pics... I've always run 5 point harnesses that are bolted to a rollcage and use a real racing seat

If I were Seig I'd do the same ;)

I just need a securely mounted shoulder belt system as I've been gambling since the crush adapter in the steering wheel mount was removed.

Sieg, I'm curious what you decide on. I'm looking at 3 points as well and thought the same thing about Morris. I like your design for the rear mount retractor but wonder how to secure it where it won't have a chance to tear out. If I remember correctly both factory lap belt nuts are on plates on the opposite side of the metal in the rocker and tunnel. I wonder if welding a plate with a nut on the backside to the rocker similar to how roll bars are installed would be sufficient.

I just ordered the Seatbelt Planet 3 point retractable belts pictured above. Tonight I've been assessing reinforcing the interior quarter panel at approx. 5 & 7 o'clock from the window crank with 14g .078" plates which is the same thickness material they spec on their backing plates. I'm thinking TIG welding a grade 8 7/16-20 nut to a templated plate then plug welding it to the backside of the panel may work considering how the belt would parallel load the plate. :headscratch:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-D...DxbrkTL-XL.jpg

That mounting position puts the retractor directly below the shoulder loop pivot, adequate clearance for the window crank, and still allows the rear seats to be removed without removing the retractor.

After researching the factory rear shoulder mount locations in the package tray and inspecting them for strength I feel this location is definitely stronger than the package tray mount area.

The retractor mechanism mount will need to be plenty sturdy. For the rear seat retracts a separate reinforcement plate was added on mine to tie in multiple panels.

With the belt coming up from the retract and going forward to the seat, the effective load on the sail panel goes up.

If you're going to track your car, I'd like you to be as safe as possible!! ie.. roll cage or roll bar, 5 point harnesses, fire system, racing seat etc etc etc

Understood Dawgy, facts are it may get tracked twice this year. It will get driven on public roads in traffic many more miles and the chance of a serious accident on public roads is much higher IMO. I've pushed it way too long with only 3" lap belts and an old school steering column.

Thanks and understood Carl. That panel is stamped from what appears to be 18-19g material so backing with 16g minimum and anchoring in a manner that would minimize stress tearing would be critical.

Another option I looked at tonight was the strap mount, the challenge is it is right over the rocker and I don't think there's a way to gain access to the back side for a backing plate, lock washer and nut. It would be easy enough to weld the strap in place but I'm not sure what gauge material it is....yet.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-D...DG8Hvfs-X2.jpg

I just put a set of the Schroth Rally 4s in my Nova. Strictly a street car and I wanted something a little better than factory lap belts. I definitely noticed once installed and snugged up, they do have a tendency to pull the lap belt up just as you described.

Jeff-

That would likely be an easier option even if it meant a bit of floor surgery.

You may be able to put a -O- shaped hole in the floor where the slit is just wider than the large washer, and the hole large enough to pass the welded on nut through. With a wire/string the washer/nut could be pushed in through the top, pulled back up, tacked into place, the wire/string removed, a bolt put it for centering, and then weld up the slit to the washer. A "topper" plate could be added if you wanted some additional insurance.

With this the strap can be installed from the top with a top-mounted bolt.

Great suggestion Carl :thumbsup: I could probably do the same with 2" x 3" reinforcing plates as well, at least I think there's enough room inside the rocker to position the plate.

I cut some side plates out of 12g today just to see "how it felt" so to speak. I clamped it on the exterior for the photo.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-p...pgmW9b8-XL.jpg

With the plates positioned on the backside of the panel approx. 80% of top line is braced by the stamped lip of the panel, add plug welds, and a 7/16" bolt through the center and I think it had the potential to be strong enough to handle the potential load forces. I doubt the factory roof mount is as strong as the side plate as it's mounted with two 1/4 or 5/16 bolts. If I add the rocker strap to the system the roof mount would most likely fail.

The other issues I'm factoring are all the numerous inherent safety shortcomings of cars engineered in the 60's, an impact hard enough to tear those plates lose will probably put the steering column and/or subframe in very undesirable locations.

Thoughts? :sieg:

I'm right there with you Sieg. I ended up modifying a mid 80's GM tilt column instead of going aftermarket because I felt it was so important to keep the collapsable feature. My car will rarely see the track and car accidents happen all too often. Thanks for sharing your developments on the seat belts. I want to do something similar.
:thankyou:

Awesome idea Carl!

Sieg, you're doing a great job with this. The backing plate idea on the side panel makes a lot of sense too. I'm assuming the two concerns there are folding up or tearing as the vertical force is applied. I think you solved both issues as long as the panel doesn't want to fold above the reinforced area under load. Your backing plate and location is well thought out.

Back to the rocker mount location, it seems as though something along the lines of what Carl suggested would have to be done. I'm concerned about a bracket top welded tearing off right around the weld. Carls idea of placing a wide plate with bottom side welded nut below the rocker mimics what the factory did by spreading the load out and forcing a larger area to have to be torn through. Granted this force would be pulling straight up rather than more of a shear force like the factory front seat belt locations.

Again, Great Job! :cheers: Looking forward to seeing this develop.

Nice work Sieg... looks like your on the right track to anchor the belt.

I am also wondering about the steering columns in our cars. Not sure what the options are. I plan to do some research on this. Having a collapsible column would be a good idea for sure. You bring up some good points.

Solutions can be found here: http://www.woodwardsteering.com/index.php?limitstart=7

I'm pretty sure Ididit or Flaming River also make retrofit collapsible columns as well. That is, if you don't want to go the racecar route.

Thanks, we'll see where this exercise takes us. As for folding, the belt will exit the top of the retractor and angle inward to the roof mount around 10* so applied force should create some inward pull along with the vertical pull. The retractor mounting hole is near the bottom of the unit so how it's positioned on the plate will change the leverage to a degree. I don't have the units yet, probably by Wednesday and then I can put the scientific seat-of-the-pants eyeball on it and figure out the angles and preferred anchor point and weld placement.

I also want to research and analyze the strength of the upper mount and fasteners more thoroughly. If it's stouter than I think I'll add the strap to the rocker also.

Belts arrived from Seatbelt Planet while we were Spring Breaking it at the coast for a couple days. Vertical alignment of the belt is good with F-B at 90* +/- 2* and L-R 10* or less, finished fitting the plates, drilling the side panels, welded the backing nuts on the plates, cleaned the weld locations, and performed a couple test welds. All that's left is prepping the interior panels inside and out around the weld points.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-r...-rmC8NvH-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-V...-Vx2WVsC-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-z...-zMDsTzb-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-h...-hjqdVZs-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-F...-FNCsVpn-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-B...B784pfc-XL.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-X...XVpC69C-XL.jpg

If you see anything that causes concern I'd appreciate your input. :thumbsup:

Superficial look at the upper belt mount and mounting plate, wasn't in the mood to pull the headliner.......:D

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-q...-qprBMVq-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-g...-g8jzpr3-L.jpg

If anyone has a picture or could take one of the metal support structure I'd appreciate it!

Welded the plates in today..........I'm slightly spent after two days of climbing in and out of the back of that car. :sieg:

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-W...WFk7Mw8-XL.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-h...-hSPMrQg-L.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-F...-FL8RNnr-L.jpg

I also primed the welded areaa, located the bolt position, punched the panels, adjusted the quarter windows, and refinished the rock chipped exterior louvers. Day over!

Sieg. Looks great! Post a pic with the side panels back in when you get a chance. You pulled this off nicely!

Very nice work

Thanks Dawg :thumbsup:

Finally got it all buttoned up. After checking the rigidity of the panel with the backing plate welded in I opted to not install the secondary strap to the rocker. It may be gambling but I don't think so. My guess is an impact hard enough to tear this new mount lose would be fatal. I it starts haunting me it will happen.

All in all I'm pretty confident and satisfied with the results.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-x...xFwdL2G-X2.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-p...p6BzDCR-X2.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-X...X5ph6h4-X2.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-w...w8cpkdh-X2.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3...3k3QJfN-XL.jpg

Looks like the same seat belts I used in my car. Always hated them....:)

What the hell.... you have a tube notcher... might as well built a cage and used some real belts.



Giving you crap of course.



Those belts match up great with those 2 MPH bumpers the car came with.

I like my 3" Simpson lap belts a lot (had them since 1990) but no shoulder belt started haunting me without the collapsible steering wheel hub and column for that matter.

Of course.........carry on. :captain1:

However my notcher needs to mate with a good bender.

And.........those aren't bumpers they are ornaments.