Am I out of line??
 

I'm about to pull the trigger on my engine for the Camaro. It's going to be a $40,000,00 +++++++ deal. I have been talking to my lawyer who is my neighbor and friend for 15 years and had him write me up a contract. Basically stating I will get what I paid for in a timely manner. I have passed up on two builders who have been evasive on completion time not answering the question, ''How long will it take to get my engine''. I completely understand these things take time don't get me wrong. But after my AP ordeal I'm not going to play the I said we said BS!! I want it to be very clear in writing what is expected from both parties. I also want to put the money in some type of account showing the money is there and I can release it as needed. My lawyer said that can be done with no problem. Do you guys think this is to extreme??? Am I out of line?? I keep reading all the horror stories about guys getting taken for thousands of dollars. Its hard to trust anyone when it comes to this ''hobby'' anymore I don't care who it is. I would like to here what you guys think..

This sounds like an excellent idea to me Mario. In all seriousness this kind of thing is done in a lot of areas of business. Most notably for most is when you have a home built. This is how the banks handle paying the contractor. A contract is setup, progress inspections are done and money "draws" are issued based on the actual progress. To me this protects both parties. The vendor knows you have the funds and the customer has some level of comfort they will get what they want. If a vendor is unwilling to enter in to this agreement, then you have to ask why. This may sound odd, but make sure you spell out the consequences to either of you not living up to your ends of the agreement. I have friend right now that had a contract drawn up that said what each agreed to, but had no consequences if it didn't happen. At that point it means nothing. In the industry I work in, it is not uncommon to have an incentive adder too. If the vendor delivers on time, you pay the agreed amount. If they deliver early give them a 2-5% bonus. If they are late then they loose some percentage. If it goes too long, you have the right to cancel the deal. I really think you are on the right track and that if this was done more, people would be happier and more of the bad vendors would go away. Keep us posted on how you go forward.

By the way, you should talk to Casey Wegner at Wegner Automotive. They are first class and deliver on what they say. They actually had to wait for us and had no issue with that. We gave them a down payment and they told us call when your ready and we'll get it done. They did just that! :thumbsup:

As far as I'm concerned, if the builder has a problem with it, then that is NOT who I'd go with. $40k may be beans to some people, but to most it's a freakin ton of money!! Heck,in my field we might get down money most if the time but until my project is done, I don't get the remainder of the money.

I remember the line in Three Amigos, "No dough..... No show!":G-Dub:

I don't think you are out of line at all. And as someone who has been similarly affected in past dealings, I don't blame you in the least for trying to do this.

That said, I will be very interested to hear the responses you receive as you approach vendors with this proposal. I expect you are going to get a lot of blank stares / confused voices / etc, and likely flat out refusals. Not that you should, what you are asking for is completely reasonable. But most small businesses of the type who are in the car hobby aren't likely to have on-staff counsel, or even a relationship with someone who can be counsel for them. And as such, I expect most of them won't even consider signing an agreement like you are proposing.

I hope our hobby hasn't truly gotten to a point where this type of step is actually necessary... :(

Dude, you are so whacked.



:peepwall:


:lol:

The only thing you're out of line on is spending 40 large on a motor... :lol:

Seriously Mario, you make a few good points. Today's economy has seen a huge erosion in vendor/customer relationships and it's the customer who usually pays. Today's mantra is trust no one and the bigger the deal, the more protections that are built into the agreement.

Having said that, you cannot universally translate transactional Ts & Cs from one industry to the next. It may work in some instances and not in others. A great example - all respect Chad - is dis-incentives. In my business we will not construct nor agree to any contract that gives the customer a right not to pay us. It's hard enough to get our customers to honor our invoices in a timely manner even when all goes perfect. We deal in IP though, not hard goods.

Most custom motor builders are small businesses. They do not have this level of product nor bulk inventory sitting on the shelf waiting for you to come along, so they'll want to be reimbursed for the parts invested. They aren't banks nor made of cash so that would be a reasonable request of them. Then there's the time involved to produce your motor so it will live. That takes care and talent. Some may agree to this payment schedule, some may not. He has to put food on the table as well.

Do you lose out on having your motor built by 'THE GUY' because he won't take your payment terms?

I've had great experiences with custom motors being built in terms of final product. Never was one (out of four) ever delivered on time. What happens if under your agreement, you release progress payments and then the build stalls? He's got the parts $$$ (1/2 or more of the total?) and the balance is sitting in an account waiting for him to finish, which he doesn't do as agreed and your frustration level rises. What if the parts suppliers don't deliver those custom parts (pistons - happens all the time!)? Is that his issue? Using another example we see here all the time - what happens when the parts are stalled, you're not paying the bulk until he finishes and another consistent paying job walks in just like the body shop industry (not you Mario, but you know what I mean). Lots to think about.

In your shoes, I'd pick the builder carefully (not Beck or Nelson) and present the idea of an agreement. See how it goes over and how you two can come to terms that each party can live with. Don't make it so restrictive that if some thing comes up the builder decides not to complete or work on it in a timely manner. Lastly, be prepared for delays. Hate to say it, but it is reality in the custom motor game at the level you're playing at.

It's so out of the ordinary and uncustomary that you will likely see continuing opposition. Personally, I'd pick somebody within reasonable driving distance, own most of the parts initially, and then fund it in increments as progress and labor are tendered. Tell them you want reasonable expectations up front due to you past experiences. Do your research and find recent references.

When Pettis Performance built my engine it had an expected finish date, horsepower and torque slot, and listed every single cost and part. I funded it three times I believe. He did finish it on time.

You're making that car way to expensive and nice to drive. That's my opinion. :mock:

Most engine builders are at the hands of the manufacturers. So, you start ordering custom pistons, custom rods, etc. Be prepared to wait, because all manufacturers have adopted Just-in-time manufacturing methods. The supplier doesn't have the items in stock, so it has to be built. My Harrop TVS 2300 supercharger only took 3 weeks to acquire, but custom pistons and custom rods took months. I have talked to other custom engine builders, and they all seem to have the same problem with acquiring custom pistons. Also, be careful on what you are buying, because now only few companies are building crankshafts & rods in the USA. :flag2: Majority of the parts now are coming from overseas.

Actually, it is rare to find a builder to use your own parts anymore. My local engine builder will do it, but he will recommend to you better quality parts. So, if you have a goal of 1000 HP, then you need parts that will survive in that engine. I talked to Brian Thompson on this and he only recommends USA made products. He has seen so many China crankshafts break, and it increases the costs of the engine, when you cut corners on parts.


Jeff

This^^

I don't think you're being unreasonable if all of the parts are available.

We are way behind schedule on a job at the shop I work at but if it takes months for a block or something else to be available there's not much you can do to get it done faster.

I tend to agree with others that a contract may scare off a good engine builder. It might send up a red flag to the builder that you could be a one of those "difficult" customers, and passing on the job would just be simpler for them. I am also of the opinion though that if you feel you need a contract, you should probably find someone that you are comfortable enough with to not deem a contract is a necessary. That is just the way I prefer to work though. I like to get word of mouth referrals and visit a shop at least twice before I commit to dropping a big chunk of change. If you schedule an appointment, get the tour, then drop in a month later to see how all of the various projects have progressed, then you start to get a sense of the pacing and flow of the work going through the shop.

Just my two cents. I've had a few difficult deals myself and completely understand where you're coming from with American Powertrain. I've never spent 40k with an engine builder though, but if I were I would want to make damn sure I really knew who I was working with, and if a contract was no big deal for them, it probably wouldn't hurt either.

I don't disagree with you Ron for the most part. I do agree that my original comment about backing out on the order after a lot of time and money expended by the vendor is pushing it and unreasonable, I still think there needs to be consequences to not living up to commitments. This whole game that "I'm THE GUY for this so you will get what I give you, when I give it to you" that runs rampant in this hobby has got to stop somehow.

If these engine guys are as good as they say they are, then they know how long it takes to provide the level of service they commit too. As long as the payment schedule is fair and based on known lead times, I don't think it is unreasonable to request.


Jeff, while I understand where you are coming from, most of what you point out is usually propaganda businesses that can't meet their commitments use to make excuses. It is a fact that inventory costs money and most small businesses can not afford to have a lot of money tied up in stock. However, it still comes down to managing a project correctly and quoting based on facts. If a particular engine combination uses custom parts than the builder should get firm delivery quotes for those parts before the customer is quoted cost and delivery. These delivery quotes can then be retained so that when an order is placed if there are delays this information can be presented to the customer to help them understand what the delays are. Unfortunately it happens all too often that some folks that are experts at some service or skill are not always capable business people or project managers.

The whole "just in time" manufacturing thing also raises my blood pressure. It has become a buzz word for "It's not our fault". Most small businesses that say they have adopted this process have no idea what it is all about. Not having stock on the shelves and ordering every part needed for each project is NOT "just in time" manufacturing. This process is built on statistical data for each component and supplier so that a forecast schedule can be developed so that orders are placed automatically. These orders are placed so that the parts arrive in the facility "just in time" for the process to continue WITHOUT delays. In most cases this type of process is not suited to custom one off projects that require different components every time. It is meant to streamline a high volume production line.


If a mutually beneficial contract scares a vendor off, i would say so be it. It really scares me that when all you expect is to get what you asked for, when you asked for it, for what you agreed to pay for it, you are "One of those DIFFICULT customers". I much prefer to work the way you stated Matt. There was a time when this was the only way to do business. But, unfortunately it is getting to be all to common, especially in this hobby that vendors AND customers are becoming untrustworthy. I think word of mouth is critical in making decisions like these, but not full proof. I speak from experience. We almost spent 15K on an engine through Prodigy based on all kinds of recommendations. But, I guess we were lucky in that he neglected to return many phone calls which gave us a bad feeling. In the end we passed on that deal and feel very lucky that we did. But, up to that point I had not heard one bad thing about them. 6 months later the you know what hit the fan. If we would have moved forward, this would have been an excellent situation for a contract.

I work for an OEM manufacturer of heavy industrial equipment. We are somewhat unique in that we don't do any manufacturing in house. We contract manufacture 100% of our goods. Our business does 15-17 million a year with projects that range from 2000 to 1.5 million. We have to make commitments to our customers for every one of them and we are completely dependent on our vendors to live up to these commitments. We have a 97% on time rate and when we are going to be late we are in constant communication with our customers to try and help reduce the impact on them. And don't think we are a huge company with unlimited resources. We do all this with 14 people. Before we quote a customer, we know what items are going to be long lead items and we get firm commitments from the vendors for those parts. If on the odd occasion we cannot get a firm commitment, this is presented to the customer up front so that they can decide if this level of uncertainty is acceptable. There is no reason that any engine builder could not do the same thing.

It is time for things to start changing and people stop accepting poor service as "it's just how it is in this hobby". Contracts may not be the answer, but someone has to try something or nothing will change.

OK, I've got my nomex on let the flaming and flogging begin! :getout:

:underchair:

One last thing to add. While we didn't have contract per say with Wegner, we did have an agreed on set of components and output requirements in writing before the order was placed. They had no issue with doing that and were very easy to work with. I will say too, they even agreed to delay the build until we were ready in exchange for a down payment. While what we got isn't exotic, it was still more than just a rebuild. So we got what we wanted, when we wanted it, for what we were quoted. In exchange they got prompt payment for their services. Win win. If everyone did it this way, this thread wouldn't exist. :beathorse

Maybe I should clarify a little and add that I wouldn't approach a shop waving legal documents around before getting down to talk final numbers. Even then I myself would shy away from accepting such work unless I had all of the pieces already in my possession, and I definitely wouldn't let someone bring me a pile of parts because you never know if everything is going to work if different parties sourced different parts and so forth.

Good advice! I just got a Hilarious visual! Tact is always good! :lol:

Always good to have a capable attorney as an ally.

I think it is about the relationship and open communication. The vibe I get is Troy is your man, you seem really happy with him. What your trying to do is not difficult per say. Your looking for a turbo big block engine for a street driven Camaro. Your not looking to qualify #1 at a heads up drag race event. So I think that should help you narrow your selection down. If I was in your shoes I would talk to guys who have done what you want in your area. Mike Norris in Indy would be a good contact. He knows what he is doing and lives in Indy which is the Motorsports central for the north. My guess is Troy will be building the headers and exhaust for your narrowed subframe. So you have the fab work covered. More then likely you will buy a manifold. So find a semi local guy who has good recommendations. Ask for customer references, I want new customers to talk to the usual guys, helps the new guy feel comfortable and helps me sort out the losers.

I think your contract will scare off a builder who is having to rely on others to supply parts. I would not sign that contract until ALL parts where in my shop. Let the builder buy all the parts, he needs to make his margin. Go visit him regularly and check to see if he is doing what he says and buy him lunch and let him buy you lunch.

Really at the end of the day whatever you want to build cannot be that tough, my buddy just destroked a 726 nos engine to a 588 on methanol that will spin to 10k rpms. They think it makes 3500hp with twin 94's. Something like that takes a while and the right guy.

How about a stipulation, if the hold up is another vender the extra time could be added to the end if its needed with no consequence to the builder. You could use the invoice dates to monitor time tables.

When you borrow money to build a house, the contractor usually gets 7 or 8 draws.
I vote for something like this.

Though I understand where you are coming from, I would not take you on as my customer taking that approach.

A former business partner and still good friend of mine said something that made and makes a lot of sense to me still... it went something like this:

You can't let lawyers get too involved in business transactions all the time or no transaction would ever get done.

Like others have said..... location, specific & relevant experience, and communication should be paramount and foremost and price should be last. Because at $40k or whatever on a motor, you should not be price shopping and it doesn't sound like you.

Good luck.

I'm sorry if I have my facts incorrect, but I believe INTMD8 is Jim from Speed Inc. I think he has been very modest in his approach to this forum. I've been an Ls1tech member from almost day one, and I don't think I've seen him mention once who he is or where he works on this board. Speed Inc. has been one of the biggest speed shops in the LS world from day one and Jim is one of the most well respected tuners in the country.

Speed Inc. is right in your back yard. I don't believe they have an in house engine program(could be wrong), but I bet they can facilitate a deal between you and their bulder. No matter what you do for an engine you should take advantage of a resource like Jim being near by when it comes time to tune that new mill.

Gearhead Performance / Leonard Borman
 

I was think to buy parts from Gearhead Performance before i see what happen with Hellrace on this forum . So for me its easy Iwill try to use firm like summit,jegs gm . Thats is reason when people/ firm are unseriosly like Gearhead Performance evryone loose at the end.
So i understand Doom very well and think thats the way too go.

Interesting topic. My 2 cents.

I didn't see it in your original post but I assume you'd have a mutually agreed to technical requirements document as part of the contract. Others already mentioned the parts delivery portion but I'm referring to hard technical targets to what the engine must do. Not how it is done. I don't think an engine builder would have an issue with a contract so long as your engine requirements are clearly defined up front, is measureable and is something that is within their control to meet.

For example - making up numbers here - the engine must make a minimum of 900 horsepower and 900 ft pounds of torque, redline at 8000 rpm, etc. A requirement like it must be an LS based engine or it must be fuel injected, it must be turbo charged, etc would have to be negotiable as it straddles what and how to meet your requirements.

Not something like: the engine must be around 1000 hp, get 1:00 lap times at <insert track here>, do a standing 1/4 mile in 10 seconds, get 25 mpg, be reliable, have a lopey idle.

How firm are your plans?

Something else I thought of regarding the original question of whether or not a contract is out of line is deals with which state rules apply to the enforcement of the contract if there is a dispute. Your lawyer neighbor will presumably seek to have the rules of Illinois apply to the contract which, to an out of state engine builder, may or may not be out of line.

Kevin

It's interesting that in most consumer purchases there is rarely a contract agreed by the parties before a sale. Mostly as the item being bought is readily available (well not always) but the buyer is mostly buying something that is produced in reasonable numbers.

In business to business transactions there is always a contract. Mostly as what is being bought is custom or in volume and a long term contract.

I've built a pretty high end car here in Oz that took over 3 years, I understand the waiting
I'm alos a CEO of a $200M company and sign / review contracts every single day f the week

To me I can see bot sides of the argument of contract vs no contract.

It comes down to what you are comfortable with. $40K is a lot of money. A contract would better serve in this case more for quality of product rather than timelines, although obviously timelines can be built into it with acceptable leeway for both parties. But a contract is to protect your investment and get what you paid for.

I think having a contract in place is a good thing. If you were a business buying a number of engines custom built you would have a contract, so what's the difference for 1 engine ?

As said i can see both sides, ie trust and communication overcome need for contract, and I agree. But in my experience a contract is ONLY ever needed when it all turns to sh#%t, if it goes o plan the contract will gather dust in the bottom drawer. so any builder that refuses a contract is therefore somewhat expecting it to go bad....

Of course assumption here being that you will allow reasonable timelines under the expectation of delays due to the uniqueness of your engine...within reason of course

I agree with Todd on the above.
I don't think you're out of line at all Mario. Heck, it is better to protect yourself than get taken over the barrel, so to speak.

It really is sad that it has come to this when you think about it. I have to admit that reading about other fellow hobby builders who have been fleeced but unsavoury shops/suppliers has made all of us a bit gun shy of getting taken. After reading so many guys screaming for help on different forums I've changed my buying habits. Living in Canada we are use to having to pay more for parts and when I see some of the deals south of the boarder I feel like jumping on them but at the end of the day I can't afford to lose my money to a supplier who takes my money and runs.

Now a days I deal locally or if I'm ordering something I tend to stick to bigger companies, like TCI or Detroit Speed direct. It's been said multiple times and I have to agree go with someone local and where you are able to follow up personally and ensure you are getting what you pay for. I don't think it's a bad idea having a schedule laid out on when you get your product and payments at certain completion points so that you feel secure and are able to see your product with your own eyes at those completion points.

Now I've got to go read your thread to see what a $40K engine is goin in. :confused59: :confused59:

One thing about the references is that any idiot has some good references. That's the bad part for sure. Like I said earlier and has been echoed, if the builder has a problem, then he's not the guy I'd go with. Unless you have some crazy contract.

But check as many references as you can anyway!! LOL!!:D

Thanks for the input guys. A lot of good points here. I just think the stories of guys getting taken is getting a lot worse these days .The biggest reason for this really isn't about time I am fully aware that these guys are depending on vendors to get them parts. You can't put a motor together without parts! I have the same issues in my business. When I'm in that situation I simply notify my customer of the delay and why and provide them with the number of my vendor if they wish to verify. COMMUNICATION is a key part in this matter. I do however disagree with the fact it will turn off potential builders. I did contact two that had no problem with doing a contract . I made it clear why I was doing it and they fully understood where I was coming from. The vendor supply did come up but everything else was not a problem. When it comes to referrals I'm on the fence with that . I was referred to AP by several people and we all know what happen there! So it really comes down to getting ripped off of my hard earned money. I really don't think asking a vendor to do this is a lot to ask. I just want to make sure my money isn't funding someone else's project ! I can go on and on with this but I think its time to make some changes and make vendors more responsible on how they handle our money.

Is the builder best suited for the job willing to sign your contract?

Would you take a customers custom contract at your business?

My opinion is that if you go to court, with or without a contract, you lose...(Financially) A $40,000 investment isn't large when you get attornies involved.

A contract is like a lock on the door, just trying help keep honest people honest!

Never the less we all still have locks on our doors.

Just my 2 cents.
If I'm a good engine builder I probably already have a ton of business. If someone comes to me with a contract they made up I am going to probably say no. Maybe you are someone who is setting me up for a lawsuit etc. A headache I can avoid by just saying no.

The guy that will sign the contract might be the guy that really needs the money because he is lousy at what he does.

Something that may be getting lost here is that the "contract" doesn't need to be some 32 page legaleze document a lawyer draws up. It can be as simple as a Purchase Order document stating what you are ordering and a time for it's delivery. If the builder will acknowledge that P.O and take the order, that is now a contract. Simple.

Todd you no I always value your opinion ! To answer your question about a contract for my business its simple for me. I DON'T EXCEPT ANY MONEY UNTIL THE JOB IS DONE!!! That's my contract the money is my motivator!!! The car has to go or I don't get paid. I don't use other peoples money to fix other peoples cars that way! My father in law ran his shop like that for 65 years and I continue to run mine the same way..
Charley you do bring up a valid point.
Chad I think that's a great way of putting it ''CONTRACT'' may be the wrong word here . I would say more of an'' agreement''.

I 100% agree with this. I work with one of the premier LS builders in the world and I would tell you thanks but we don't need your business if you wanted a contract demanding delivery dates, we would certainly give you our best guess on completion but no guarantees. There are too many things out of your control with the delivery of parts when you get into a custom built engine, some of the parts can't even be ordered until the engine is partially assembled and as far as buying your own parts as Todd suggested, don't expect any durability guarantees if you start specing out the parts that's what you're paying the builder to know.

BTW what type of motor is this going to be? I am assuming Twin Turbo something? LSX or BBC or ?

Most reputable engine builders are going to have a progress/payment schedule and require some money upfront to get started. I assume your looking for a big cube twin turbo LSX motor. I am in the market for the same, but am trying to stay around $30k or so.


Contact stevemorrisengines.com as they can give you a detailed quote for an entire package. I am leaning towards their iron block lsx 427 with twin 67s. It is hard to find a complete TT LSX motor package from one vendor, and this one looks pretty good.

Good Luck!

Big block 540 TT. Steve Morrison has quoted me $51.000.00 it looks like he's going to be the guy I'm going to go with at this point. Very detailed on what I'm going to get and when!:)

51k! :confused59: :G-Dub: :headspin: :disgusted:

Can I go for a ride? :Tomcat:

Wow bold statement!!! So your telling me to go pound sand if I asked for agreement on when I was going to get my engine?? There was a time I thought in my business I was the best collision shop around until I had no cars coming through my doors and I was humbled real fast my friend. Trust me one day you'll think twice about that statement.

Chad I'll come get ya!