LS Swap headers
 

I just posted this on Pro-Touring, but I figured the more answers I get, the better, so here's a re-post...

I have a cheap set of eBay headers I used on my '67 Camaro last year. I think the flanges are warped causing exhaust leaks, and I'm in the market for a new set of headers. I'd love to be in the $5-600 range.

I liked the idea of the new Hooker headers, but I'm not willing to swap out my almost new Holley oil pan (1st version) or my engine mounts/trans x-member. The Hooker/Holley stuff looks great, but they came out with it a year too late for me, so I'm looking at other brands.

Has anyone used the stainless steel LS headers from Texas speed in a 1st gen Camaro here? https://www.texas-speed.com/p-4273-t...1967-1969.aspx


https://www.texas-speed.com/images/p...ge/4273_1_.png
https://www.texas-speed.com/images/p...ge/4273_2_.png


Looking for pics of PS box clearance as well as how low they hang or how tight they tuck in relation to the subframe. Thanks.

----------------------------

FWIW, I have looked at the Dynatech headers I have heard they have great steering box clearance, but I have also heard they hang down too low.

I know Doug's makes a decent set of headers, and would be interested in seeing how those fit on a 1st gen if anyone has pics.

I'm open to other suggestions, but I'm not looking to pay a grand or more right now.

Don't have any experience with them but would like to hear from someone who has used them. Alot cheaper than Stainless Works if quality and fitment is good.

Tech Specs
 

Here are some details on the Dynatech Headers. Like any header brand, you must use the correct engine mounts, have the correct engine drive line angle, etc. It plays a huge role in how low the collectors hang, etc.
The link below will help you decide if your combination will work with these headers. As you can see in the link, the flange (at the head) and the bottom of the tubes and collector, do not run parallel, hence the headers are designed for the engine to be at an angle while the collectors run parallel with the sub frame.
These are in the $600.00 range.

FYI
I have seen some transmission combinations that force the customer to either replace the trans tunnel with a raised one, or live with a 5.5 degree engine drive line angle. In these cases the transmission is touching the trans. tunnel and the transmission is as high as it can go. Typically every degree of angle the engine gets tilted, it moves the collectors about 3/8" up or down. If you have an increased drive line angle, you may see low hanging collectors as a result.
These are in the $600.00 range.
Hope this helps.

http://afabcorp.com/Dynatech/lit/Dynatech_LSXCamaro.pdf

Best of Luck with your swap.

Some great info there. Much appreciated!!!

Thanks IMPALA MAN, those are helpful measurements.

I was able to get to 4* down on the trans before the driver's side exhaust pipe hit the trans x-member. I should be able to achieve 3* down once the exhaust is re-worked. The floors in my car were replaced before I bought it, and I think that gave me a little extra clearance.

FWIW, I have the tall & narrow frame mounts, Energy Suspension motor mounts, Dirty Dingo Sliders and BMR T56 adjustable trans x-member with an '04 GTO T56.

My cheapo eBay headers don't hang down too low. Maybe about 1/2 of the bottom tube on the collector sits below the subframe. It's just that they don't seal well, even with the GM manifold gaskets, and I had to dimple the pipes in 3 places to get them to fit around the PS box.

67 Rally,
Why don't you list which motor mounts ( both original and LS style swap mounts) oil pan, and power steering you have on the car. After we have all the info, we can help with what might fit better than what you currently have.

Sorry, It's kind of scattered throughout this post, but I also a asked similar question on other forums and may have put more info there.

Frame Mounts: 3945507 & 3945508 (1969 350 and Z/28 tall & narrow)
Motor Mounts: Energy Suspension 3.1117G (tall & narrow)
Engine Plates: Dirty Dingo DD-Slider SBC to LS Conversion Engine Mounts
Oil Pan: Holley 302-1 GM LS Retro-fit Oil Pan
Trans X-Member: BMR TCC005 T56 Transmission Crossmember
PS Box: Delphi 670 PS Box (26088654)

I've been eyeing up the Texas Speed ones myself. I called them last week to try to get an installed picture but suposedly the guy who did the test fitting (and had is pix on his personal computer) was in Qatar or someplace. They were going to email him and ask for the pix but haven't gotten back to me yet. I'm going to give them another call this week and maybe you should too. If two of us are bugging them maybe they'll get the pictures.

On another note, can you have a local machine shop reface the flanges and clean them up so they are flat?

Qatar? More like Shenzein China from the looks of them! American Racing, Stainlessworks, Dynatech would be my first choices. Looking at the collectors alone....I wouldn't use these on a build of mine.

The question I keep asking myself after researching all the different headers and mount combinations is:

Do I want to spend a house payment on headers that probably won't fit as advertised and have to be modified anyway or do I spend $400 instead on a set with lowered expectations, planning to make them fit?

That $400 set sounds pretty good.

I posted a similar question on two other forums, and someone just posted pics of the Dynatech headers in a '69 Firebird with the recommended DSE mounts and 3* trans angle:

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/t...pse9922b91.jpg

I don't have a good machine shop that I've worked with in the area. I'm going to swing by the exhaust shop later this week and see if they have any recomendations. If I mill my current flanges flat, I'll also have to dimple the headers near the PS box even nore in order to get closer to 3* on my trans angle.

If you did have to dimple them more it wouldn't be much unless the flanges are warped more than I'm thinking and they had to remove a lot of material. I haven't seen yours of course but I'd guess it would be less than 1/16" but you could also use a thicker gasket. I think they make thicker ones like they do for head gaskets.

Yeah, sorry, I wasn't very clear with that thought.

I had two reasons for looking at new headers. One is to get the flange to seal, but the other is because I'm currently at a 4* down angle on the trans. In order to shim the trans up another degree, I'll have to dimple the headers yet again.

I'm happy with my ground clearance:
Passenger:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps90ec3770.jpg

Driver:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps46e9a4aa.jpg


But this is what I'm dealing with for clearance:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps4597e6fc.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...pscc990f52.jpg

And here's what I had to do just to get that:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps35ac0046.jpg

I see. What's wrong with 4° though? Are you getting some vibration or having trouble with angling the differential pinion up? I thought that 3°-5° was optimal? I haven't reached the part where I need to set angles yet but that's what I thought I read. Maybe I'm mistaken.

I think 2-3* is optimal. I had vibrations initially, but resolved them with 4* pinion angle shims.

I just swapped out my 12 bolt for a Strange 60 (Dana 60). Since I need to reset my pinion angle, I figured now was the time to try to hit 3* on the trans. I need to order a new driveshaft, but don't want to do that until I know exactly where my engine/trans will sit. I can adjust the position of my engine 2-3" forward or back because my engine mounts and trans x-member are both adjustable.

Basically I want to position the engine around the ideal header location, then set the engine/trans angle and pinion angle and order the right length DS. And only do it once. :rolleyes:

what are the part numbers on these dynatechs? all the ones i have seen/used for 1st gens have that tube going up and over the box.

Vince, I'm not sure which post you're referring to. The top pic with the header's hanging super low are the Dynatech's and they are on someone else's '69 Firebird with the DSE mounts.

The one's I just post, those are not Dynatech's, they are the cheapo no-name ebay headers, Dirty Dingo Sliders, Energy Suspension mounts.

I'm trying to find a reasonably priced header that doesn't hang too low and has decent PS box clearance. I can move my engine forward/back 2-3" with the sliders and adjustable trans x-member, so I'm not locked into just one engine position.

Vince, the above is a picture of Dynatech headers installed in my 67 firebird with Hotchkis 2" drop front/1.5" drop rear. Dynatech p/n 715-11410, using DSE mount 060401. The ground clearance is 2.5" to the lowest point on the header.

We @ Speedtech recently test fit our LS subframe headers into a stock subframe with the 6700 steering box. and they fir with TONS of room.
and the road clearance is the best I have seen. the header on the pass side is only 5/8 below the stock subframe. the drive side is about flush.
here are some pics. They are stainless and are 999.00 but they FIT.

[IMG]http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...psa7e33ed8.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8af7dc60.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/...psfc694a47.jpg[/IMG]

Blake, those look great! More money than I really want to spend right now with all the other projects going on. But do you have pics of how they fit around the PS box?

No I don't. but I think the closest tube was over an 1" away, sorry you'll have to take my word for it. sorry.
you certainly wont need your HAMMER to install them

Blake, price is ok with me as long as I dont have to fight it. Any ideas if a tru-turn system causes any problems??

:confused59: $900!

A house payment + property taxes for a month.

Why are headers so expensive? The only reason I can think of is the welding. That's crap though too because you don't get much of a discount (if any) if you by them unwelded. For the usually meager performance gains, headers seem to be the worst value out of anything you can bold on your engine besides dress-up pretty bits. Unfortunately, most manifolds won't work on a 1st gen so we are forced to buy headers.

If someone came up with a header design as that fits as nicely as those Speedtech ones appear to and put a reasonable price on them, they'd corner the market and make their money back in droves. Unfortunately, it seems that the manufacturers that have the best fitting units charge huge money for them and the ones that are more reasonably priced don't bother to make theirs fit any better which would put the more expensive ones out of the market. Makes no sense to me.

I'll stop ranting now.

Lol!! I hear what you are saying. Unfortunately there is very little we can do on these cars on the cheap. You wouldnt think to upgrade the stock subframe would cost more than the car was new but it is. The thing is we love these cars and would beg, borrow, steal or kill to improve them and that drives the market. I would still rather put $70k into my 69 than buy a new one for. $40k so I bite he bullet and burn the reciepts.

Ultimate Headers may be another alternative. They are shorty style stainless headers. I believe several Lat-G members have used them on their builds. They have a pic on their website stating Mark Stielow is using them on his current project.

Here is a pic of the Dynatech headers and DSE600 steering box. Plenty of clearance. Used DSE mounts. I'm pretty sure it is a 3* trans angle.

Attachment 45797

Here is a pic from underneath. I don't have a side view yet but they are tucked up pretty tight.
Attachment 45798

That's what strange thing I've noticed with Dynatech headers. Some people seem to have great clearance with the headers tuck up nice and tight. Then we have some people (myself included) have issues with them hanging too low.

I wondered if I have the wrong DSE mount, so I checked the p/n with the packing slip and they match.

Not sure what the deal is :hairpullout: I'll probably get a set of mid lengths and be done with it.

Is it really just normal for these cars to all have the headers hanging down that low?

Make sure you are using correct frame stands. There a 2 for SBC. Once for 307 engines and another for 302/350. This would have an effect on clearance around steering components.

I'm using the DSE motor mounts set, which included the frame stands/adapter plates/Prothane motor mounts. The DSE motor mount is the one recommended by Dynatech. I have no idea whether they're for SBC or BBC. The tech I talked to back then did not know either. All he said was they build the frame stands in house.

My issue is not clearance around steering components. It's the ground clearance. The OP (67rally) has issue with steering box clearance and he's thinking about Dynatech headers, which he may run into the same issue I'm having.

Jay, can you please take some close up shots of the motor mounts, and perhaps measure the distance from the block (not oil pan) to the sub frame cross member?

I don't have pics of the frame mounts. You can call some one like Matts Classic Bowtie's who sells Camaro parts to get specs on the frame stands.

:thumbsup:
These are the flanges on the Ultimate Headers for my Chevelle. (totally different application using a RS chassis) Well built and good looking.
The ones that Blake showed are nice as well. Headers are one of those things that you are kind of stuck, either spend alot and get a good piece or buy some inexpensive ones and fight fitment and even worse... Leaks. Kinda comes down to what is your time and frustration level worth?
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psac89d139.jpg
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/t...psba30ee83.jpg

I will not be able to get up close pics for another week of so. I'll ask the shop to take a measurement from the block to the cross member.

These may be helpful in the meantime...

We had to clearance the DSE motor mount.
Attachment 45834

We had to clearance the oil cooler by dimpling the header tube
Attachment 45836

Better angle of how tight the headers fit
Attachment 45837
Attachment 45838

NO IDEA we don't use the truturn so I cant help you there

You get what you pay for, the headman header for 169.00 what do they fit? even the Hooker comp 69 Camaro headers are a joke. it is like anything. if you want quality you have to pay for it. you could build your own stainless headers for about 2000.00 to 2500 depending on what material and how tight the chassis is 900 is a deal.
Not ripping on you but someone had to take the time to design the part and actually put it on a car to see if it fits, then do all the fixturing, all the test bends, throw away 5 length of stainless tube, readjust the jig. retest fit them. You see my point. And then your lucky if there is 25% margin in the part. So after you sell 50 sets you may have broken even on the part.
Last time I checked the idea was to make money, but also sell parts the WORK!!! there are so many parts I won't even sell regardless of price because they SUCK!
There Rant over lol

NO see page 1

I think I know who that is, I'll Facebook him a link to this thread.

judging by the pictures shown they should fit fine.

really? if I had to sell my headers at $900 a set I'd have to out source them to Taiwan and i'd still loose my ass on it. :knock:

By my calcs I'd have to front 105 sets to sell for $900 a set. Thats $94,000.00.