Thinking of jumping in but...
 

Hi All,

So I have the bug to jump in and get my dream car...70-71 Firebird.
I've come across an opportunity to buy one but since I'm new to all of this I'm full with emotions and confusion. I initially thought I could take a project on myself but I'm now feeling apprehensive about it.

I uploaded a bit about the current car in mind here:
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/1...rd-Formula-350

Would appreciate any info/advice.

Welcome to the site. I'm not sure since I'm not there to look at it in person. But, given you're new to all this, I think I would start out with spending more for a better car upfront. If this was purely a project car where you could take your time, years, and fix it up, then I would say go for it. Since you're wanting something to DD, I would start out with something that needs less work. That, or lower your expectations of what you want out of it as a DD. By that I mean, are you willing to drive it while it's simply primered and work on it as you can? You'd have to have a second more reliable car to fall back on and DD while this one was getting work done.

I'm all for trying to get your dream car and wish you well in your quest. I'd just hate to see your dream turn into a nightmare if you're expectations are in the proper place.

Good luck.

Doing the entire project yourself can be a daunting task......but you'll acquire a lot of cool tools along the way. :D

I'd never consider it due to lack of reasonable enclosed work space and the weather here. I'd pick and choose what you enjoy and can reasonably accomplish and go for it.....assuming the shell is not a complete rust bucket. :thumbsup:

What's your savings account look like? Are you currently putting away 3 or 4 thousand per month? A mediocre car restoration is going to be 50 grand in parts alone... so that's hard cash - then there's an additional investment in tools... and TIME.


I'm not trying to burst your bubble -- but the reality of doing this kind of work on these cars is - it's expensive - even doing it yourself. And the car is going to have to be down most of the time. No way to do it correctly while trying to drive it every day. These cars are O - L - D and need cleaning - and in order to do that - things have to be removed. Motors and trannys need to come out to get to the filthiest parts... and the rear end - and suspension needs to be rebuilt with bushings and ball joints etc...

I've been doing this stuff a long time - and I NEVER EVER accomplish in a day what I set out to do. A one day job usually takes two... a three day job takes the whole week.... and frankly - you get tired and there's other things in life that get in the way just when you're really cranking -- you have to clean up for a weekend wedding - or whatever.


Having said all of that --- doing these old dreams is one of the most rewarding things a guy can do... and I never get tired of it. Just beware of what's really involved.


If you don't already have some knowledge and skills --- buy a DONE car.... and just enjoy it and tinker with it.

If its cheap where you can afford to buy and running I'd say go for it BUT....

Keep it running, don't do any crazy mods to it till you can afford to.

Right now you have the opportunity and you may not get the chance again. The worst time to buy a car is when you are looking for one. Finding the car is the hard part. Specially a 71 Formula.

Hey Welcome.

Nice choice in cars a Formula Bird.

Now keep in mind you always end up selling a car for less than it cost you to build it.

Now remember what I just said, and then read your own quote from PT.

"All the 70-71 birds I'm finding that are turn-key to use as a daily and rust free are way out of my price range."

So this car will end up costing more than those out of your price range.

If that motor was rebuilt before it was parked it sat for a long time without oil circulating and with some valves open and springs fading. So it is just an old motor now. Plus look at the disarray under the hood and dirty air cleaner and ask yourself what was the quality of the rebuild?

That's a $3-4k starter (not worth the $7.5k he is asking IMHO) on a project that will cost 5 to 10 times that to complete without any big modifications.

You said you're not mechanically inclined. Find something closer to done would be my advice.

Go grind this guy down a few grand

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/4547472255.html

Or keep saving your dough.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Fire...US_Cars_Trucks

I should've been more clear. I do have my regular car but I would like this Bird to be my DD, meaning not a garage queen or strictly for car shows. I fully intend to drive the heck out of it. Patience will be difficult but that's why I would like a shop to do it.

50Gs is out of the question. I'm not looking to make this car a Pro-touring type. I just want it clean, nice looking and running so I can drive it everywhere just as if I lived in the 70s. I'd like a shop to do the work, but again nothing extreme of total restoration.
I would love to but can't find a done 71 in my price range. People always want to pay little but sell for a lot and people who own done 71's are typically the ones with $ who are in no hurry or need to sell.

See, this is exactly how I'm thinking. If I let this one go...
But I do understand what GregWeld is saying and I don't want to put myself in the position of having sit mths/yrs at a time getting nowhere and then I end up eventually trying to sell it on here.

All good points.
I fully intend to do my best at getting the cost down but I'm pretty sure he won't go that low. He'll put it on ebay before going that low and then I'm certain one of you will buy it. Lol. I seriously doubt you can find a 71 Bird in similar condition for that money. I've searched craiglist like a madman. There are 72 & up, but not 71s.
Am I way out of the park in thinking $10K will get it looking and running nice?
My guesstimate is ~$5K in body work & ~$3K for interior and ~$2K in motor/misc expenses. Again, not show car or street racer but respectable and dependable.

Notice the white San Diego Bird says looks good for it's age? That means it'll still need body/paint + wheels. I can live with brown carpet and the motor did look nice but by the time I'm done with it, if I can get it for 15k, it'll still be ~20Gs and not as nice as the Formula for the same money I think, but what do I know? That's why I'm listening to all of your advice/experience.

The 72 Bird is very nice but I really don't want to spend that much on a car I intend to drive and not keep as an investment/garage trophy. However, maybe in the long run it pays out. But I also think that as I save up, these cars just get more expensive so... that's why I think Vince is on point and this is a 71 Formula (Birth yr)

I did find this one and it's going for ~ the same money everyone is telling me to offer for the Formula. I don't think it's near the same/as good as condition as the Formula so is the asking price correct? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Fire...US_Cars_Trucks

While we're at it, can anyone look at/inspect the car for me in San Diego?
I've been going off pics as well, I have lots of them but still only pics.

As far as grinding the guy down on price, would it be wrong for me to ask if I can take it to get an estimate from a local body shop? Is that unusual or does it work against me?

You're so far off it's not funny. I'm not trying to be mean or belittle your dream or desires. You asked for fair and honest opinions and that's what you're getting on here. Nobody is flaming you or the car... we're just "experienced" and know what the heck happens and what things cost and probably understand your expectations even better than you do.


#1 --- Paint alone is your total "thinking" budget for "decent". There WILL be rust repair which could eat that budget alone.


#2 --- Each time you touch one thing - it makes the thing next to it look way worse than it looked prior.

#3 --- Please don't start this project. You just have no idea what you're taking on and it's going to be nothing but a heartache for you.

#4 --- The fact that you want "respectable and dependable" doesn't lower the price of parts or labor vs wanting show quality. Parts is parts. My guesstimate of 50K was based on doing a baseline paint job - motor refresh - tranny and running gear looked at and minimal "bringing it up to road worthy"... and a replacement interior from one of the suppliers not a custom interior. I'm talking about just re-doing the seats and door panels and factory replacement carpet.
Once you paint this - the bumpers and trim will all look really really bad - and you WILL be talked in to fixing that as well - since you're paying labor to remove and replace these parts for paint "anyway".

#5 --- If you wanted it to be "pro-touring" like the cars on here... now you're looking at $150K to 200K or more.

#6 --- Probably the average amount of hours spent re-doing one of these cars from the ground up is 1500.... you can do the math for the rate in your area. But if you're getting paid $40 an hour - and the labor rate in your area is $65 and hour -- you can also do that math for how long it's going to take you to pay the bill.

#7 --- No tools - no skills... and you have to pay to have it worked on. Please just enjoy reading about the builds here and live vicariously. When you do have extra money --- Read "Investing 102" https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=34700 on Lateral-G and then when you're near retirement - you'll be a millionaire and can afford to do one of these dream cars for yourself.

You can not do a car in this condition and have it be anything "respectable" for $10K.... you could probably get SOME dependability going for that... and if you decide to do this car -- go for dependability FIRST.... and pretty LAST. Maybe you could find a buddy that will paint it in his garage... and the materials alone are going to run you a grand and it's most likely going to look pretty Earl Scheibish meaning... you really just wasted your money because you'll never be happy with it.

BEFORE you buy the car ---- ask the seller if he'd be willing to go with you and drive it to a couple shops in your area and discuss what you are thinking about and your budget and time frame. PLEASE DO THIS BEFORE BUYING.... it will really open your eyes.

MAKE SURE to really look around the shop and the other projects going on - and what you're looking for is how much (or how little) the projects in that shop appear to have been there a very long time (how much dust and disarray the parts are in). Is the trunk and interior area just full of parts and boxes? In other words the car is nothing but a storage area... Is the area around the car a working area or does it look like nobody has moved anything around there for months - maybe years....

Here's what happens ------ THE BID to do the work you agreed upon --- is doubled by what is found once work actually begins. I'm not saying this is dishonest -- but rather -- there's really no way to tell what the car "IS" until they begin to work on it. NOW --- since you were scratching to start with --- you're really screwed because work has commenced -- and you were already scraping to come up with the bid money - and that's now doubled... and your car just became the next car that sits there for months which turns into years as you loose your desire and realize there's no way to pay the bill ---- OH --- and you're now being billed $600 per month "storage fee"..... on top the bill you owe. Think about that --- that's $7200 per year for it to just sit there collecting dust.

^^^^ Sage advice.

Get somebody to go look at the white car on Craigs List.... because even if you had to pay full asking price -- that car is FAR cheaper than the one you're looking at -- by at least HALF.


If you want a snorkel hood --- then that's the kind of thing you can do as you have extra dough... because it can be bought - painted to match - and installed on a weekend in a couple hours with simple tools.

RE: BROWN CARPET

That can be turned brand new looking in a couple hours with carpet dye in a spray can -- which works really really well and is almost dumbass proof. Some paper to mask off things you don't want sprayed --- and then a couple cans of the dye - and boom! Black new looking carpet.

RE: Motor area

Looks great to me --- no hackiemotto'd wiring.... no asshat "add ons" -- just a nice clean engine bay.


RE: The '72 on FLEAbay


No need for a 455 Original motor car for a daily driver so why pay extra for that unless you can just afford to.

$50k will get you Brian's shaker scoop on his 71:lmao: Seriously with you doing NONE of the work a ProTouring build will be $150k+

I saw a 71 Formula for $3500 a couple months ago on OC CL. I see a clean white car on SD CL asking $19k which could likely be bought for less.

The fact that you think the engine and misc will be less than the interior shows you are walking into a wall.:bang:

:snapout: the motor in that 71 is junk. It is topped with a crapy air cleaner full of dirt that has been sucking down the carb. The waterpump has been weeping on the front cover, I'm sure the valve seats are screaming for lead and need to be replaced and I'd bet the motor has a nice nylon timing gear just waiting to skip a tooth and eat some parts.

You can't pull and reinstall the motor and even the cheapest rebuild with a PAW kit or some other junk from a shop will be $3500+. That's low end for a pull/install and junk rebuild. Trust me it will cost you way more than that for a proper rebuild.

You aren't even taking into account the worn out rubber bushing in the suspension. :headscratch: Those are cheap until you pay someone to install them.

You trust the brakes in a car that has been sitting and looks like an abandoned soup can? :hairpullout:

Try at least a grand for a shop to just go through the stock brakes that are on there to make them safe.

I posted the 455 car as an example of a desirable numbers matching non TA car because #s matching was a statement you made.

#s matching is a term that you worry about for something rare and collectible. A Formula 350 is a cool looking car but a Formula 400 with a manual would be collectable.

The white car looks like a decent start. Beg one of the local SD members to go with you and look at it. At least everything on it is well kept and they painted the motor the right color.

Replacing the carpet would be a great first project for someone with no skills.

Project managing a complete restoration with no real knowledge is a recipe for disaster. I see you trying to talk yourself and all of us into paying to much for that 71 but if you do you will regret it.

Beware of clean white cars. Make sure you have it inspected by a pro. Spend a few bucks.

Carpet is cheap and easy to replace, also gives you a good opportunity to inspect for rust. I still like the Silver car better. But im a glutton for punishment.

No offense taken whatsoever, I absolutely value your opinion and I'm all ears to your experience. Really thank you! You've broken the process down exceptionally well and scaring the crap out of me. In fact, I think what you've stated should be a sticky.
You mentioned investing 102, I'll be sure to read it.
I'm already looking into getting autobody/mechanical estimates from local shops. Found some that'll do it for free, but from your wise words I now find them all suspicious. I'll do the checks as you mentioned.

Yeah, I'm starting to feel that "wall" headache creeping in. Awesome list of items I can use to grind him down if I go that way. Thank you.
You're right, I do seem to be talking myself into it. But there's a long story attached to why I have such a strong desire for a 71 Bird, but I won't go there.

Can't put my finger on it but yes, the Silver one just appeals so much more to me.


Thank you all for your wise advice, please keep it coming. It's all incredibly logical and intelligent and I hope to take it vs...listening to the little head if you get my drift.

All three of these guys are seasoned, experienced, realistic, honest, and just good all-around individuals. (Some more seasoned than others :D)

Bottom line - You can trust the advice and they aren't inflating or overstating reality considering the lack of information available to them. :thumbsup:

Save your money until you can afford a nice, drivable car. That thing is a can of worms.

I do feel in good hands but... well, no excuses, sometimes we just do what we do. But I must say you all rock! There's no doubt about the incite and experience.

As far as more info goes, here's a link to pics he provided:
http://s692.photobucket.com/user/197...ula%20Firebird

The interior of the SD Formula is absolutely hammered....


Seat Covers -- which is DYI -- 289 per seat for the fronts

Seat FOAM -- DYI -- 132 per seat

So before you do ANYTHING else to the car -- you've got almost a grand in the two front seats.... that's 10% of your total budget... and we haven't replaced the door panels - or the rear seat or the carpet.... So 20% or so of your budget is getting the interior to fair condition. That's seats, front and rear - and door panels...

Now -- ALL the wubba (rubber) in that car is completely shot... so that's a must do item if you want to drive it. There's two pieces -- door seal -- and upper seal -- the door seals are 229 for a pair - but the uppers are 140 EACH - so you've got almost $600 for the door seals and misc crap plus shipping etc...

You haven't got the trunk done yet - and the seller was either afraid to take the crap out of the trunk - or he's just lazy -- or both -- which would explain the condition of the car that he's owned since '07..... but you need a trunk weatherstrip.... and that's another $180

Power window doesn't operate.... so it could be the switch or the motor - or the regulator ---- but it needs to go up and down and you've got the door panel off to replace it so might as well work on getting it running... figure worst case and you need a motor... new ones for both doors with motors $300

Mind you --- this is YOU doing all the work.... so you need to do upholstery and now do windows.... so you're going to need tools and some knowledge... or double the above prices for installation. So figure 40% of your 10,000 budget for interior and weatherstrip - and windows working. $4K ..... not a bad figure if you can find someone to do it for that.

Leaves you 6K for running and dependability.... Lets say the motor just needs a tune up and oil and filters --- and maybe a carburetor rebuild... so that's going to be $750

Change filter and oil in tranny --- $150

Change rear end grease -- $50

Bushings and ball joints to make it be able to go down the highway..... and alignment -- $1250

Shocks -- which have to be shot given the rest of the cars condition... just slap on some Monroe's -- $250

Brakes checked and operable - can't skip that part -- assume you'll need some parts or rotors turned - the fluid MUST be completely changed out etc -- $750

Tires are shot -- I don't give a damn about what the tread looks like -- this thing has ROTTED tires and they MUST be changed... $500

So roughly half your balance is spoken for.....


That leaves you maybe $2500 for stuff that nobody knew it needed.... like if the steering box is shot --- or the tie rods are toasted... or the tranny is puked or the motor is puking blue smoke after driving it 100 miles...

Doable.... yeah -- if you're lucky and find a good mechanic that is honest and is willing to work on the beater.

That's all stuff that MUST be done ----- and you haven't touched the exterior looks. Maaco might paint it silver again... so maybe you have enough for a quick spray job.

All in all said --- you have the cost of the car -- and 10K invested.... and you better pray to god it needs nothing else.

Here's one done ready to go in the range you are talking of building a project (i.e. listed for $17,500, but could most likely get for a tad less)

no waiting, no working, get in and drive

http://www.haggleme.com/Vehicle/loca...ebird-400.aspx

http://www.totalwebmanager.com/TWM/I...1465813739.jpg

Or this girlie version -- with 54K original miles....


Get out the black vinyl dye and have it black top and black interior in a matter of one weekend....


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Fire...US_Cars_Trucks

21K asking price...


Apparently these are not high priced desirable collector versions. LOL


http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/...e1404603765520

Lol ^ Classic 70's brown. I didn't post that one Greg, I saw it but thought that was still a "project" as it definitely needs new paint. Either that or new owner needs to grow and afro and buy some platform shoes and bell bottoms

Wait.... <rummaging around his closet> FOUND 'EM!!


I graduated HIGH SCHOOL in 1971...... we were by far the hippest hipsters around dude.... Well... except John Travolta.

By the way -- to the OP (original poster) -- my comment about these not being collectible.... I meant to say the 350 version.

The Formula 400 seems to be the hot ticket and sells for double or more....

This all sounds so familiar to me. Friend of mine is getting the "hot rod car itch" and had it set in his mind that he wants a TA, only he's leaning towards a later 70s model. In his world, he'd like to buy one for $7500, put another $7500 in it having a shop do all the work and have it look as nice and run and handle as good as my mid 80s Monte Carlo.

I went through it with him 6 ways from Sunday basically reiterating all of the good advice posted above...and BEGGING him not to buy 2 or 3 that he picked out that he swore were a great deal. I told him to not expect to drop those things off at my house and expect me to restore them for him. I'd help when I could but I've got my own stuff to work on.

He finally went and bought a brand new Duramax truck and is enjoying driving it around instead...thankfully.

My advice, buy the body already done and build the drivetrain you want. If it seems like it's a great deal on an older car, it probably isn't.

I actually called that guy a few months ago. He's listed in Houston CL. He said he'd work the price a bit but I didn't get a good vibe from him so I stayed away. He does have the motor modified with a large cam as well, for some reason I still remember that.

I do like this girly one but it's way the hell out in PA, so checking it out.... The guy is asking 21K so let's say he goes 17, plus shipping + interior+top =2K, and still unsure of condition, it hasn't been restored only armor all'd.

Both of those cars eat my budget just in purchase and I'm still uncertain about their underlying condition. Neither has been restored/rebuilt, just kept clean. The Afro version even states great for a garage queen. I intend to drive the car so I'm certain it'll need repairs as well. It also needs paint and interior (it's original so you know the stitching is going to give).
With the Silver Bird, I'll know what I have as I repair.

I don't think a collector would pay those starting prices knowing they're going to take the car apart anyways in a complete restoration. Although, when I look at the project "trans am with a twist", I can't believe how nice the starting point of that car was, so never mind, I obviously don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

Now that statement is hilarious.

Seriously look at all the replies. Everyone has told you that your plan is a fail from the start.

Vince is the one guy who said he likes that rusty soup can but he is a talented fabricator with a shop.

Tell you what, since both you and Vince are in CA.

He's a builder you are a client.

PM him and see if he will get that car to the point you want for $10k.:popcorn2:

Greg, this is an Awesome breakdown and really helps me itemize/piece the required work involved plus cost. I'm writing all of these things down and believe it or not, even discussing it with my CinC (want to make sure I have her support). Really, Thank you. I actually think I can do some of those repairs myself. From the total invested this way, I would choose this over the other two ebay ones.
I think I'm starting to set my own top dollar of what I'm willing to pay for the Bird and/or walk.

SW bought a fantastic looking Blue Firebird.... then found out it was a bondo wagon under the pretty paint.... He's an AUTO DEALER....


But he also has the finances to make it right - which he did - in spades.


To be perfectly blunt --- you really can't afford any of these cars. And I'm not saying that to be mean. I'm saying it because we all know the pitfalls of these kinds of cars. I get that sense from what you're saying yourself... the purchase price eats all your funds - or you buy a cheap POS and blow the balance "saved" trying to make it half as nice as the ones that'll eat all your funds. Neither of those is a good starting point for buying a project type car.

Save it for a couple more years down the road. keep shopping - build a better base of knowledge for what these kinds of projects entail. It's not like these are only for sale this week they're like buses - there's another one coming along every 15 minutes.

Join the local Pontiac club and meet some buddies that are around with info and help when needed --- the friends you meet doing these things is way better than the car itself.

Intro makes some really bitchin' wheels for these....

I agree with Greg, be patient, become more knowledgeable, and buy the right car for YOU. Once you get there, it will be apparent.

NEVER, EVER, buy a classic car without a thorough inspection. A majority have been butchered by every wannabe mechanic in the land.

We all have different standards we can endure, I just don't think the car is right based on your posts.

If you are simply looking for affirmation, you came to the wrong place. hahahaha

Wise words. We've seen a lot of guys go down that road and watched it end badly. Make smart moves. Buy once, cry once kinda thing. Steady and slow wins the race in this game.

Very True. I'm interested to hear from Vince but...as you said, he's a talented fab'r and most likely the guy who does build $50K+ cars. I'm paying peanuts in comparison so I don't expect that kind of time from him, I was thinking more of a mom&pop/family business place.

Damn Greg, I wish you were my neighbor.

Ha! Nice thought! I built the last car for my brother in law last year..... I paid for all the parts and the interior... and he came up every weekend for weeks and weeks so we could work on it together. It started as a front end bushing replacement job -- ended up 16 months later -- and at least 50 grand out of pocket -- well - actually as I'm typing this -- it was quite a bit more than that - because the engine was 14 grand - and the interior was 20.... but that's not the point ----- I have skills - tools - a large place to work... and the account to keep the parts coming.

The thing that nobody that hasn't done this before understands -- is the "while I'm here" syndrome.... that is --- you start out to do something -- and then realize that while you're at it - it'd be way easier to do "X" as well because you've already exposed "X" parts/pieces and while you're there you might as well go ahead and update/replace/repair/improve them too...

Then the weekend is over - the wife is pissed because you're a dirty greasy pig - you've ruined some clothes - and you had fun while SHE sat waiting for you.... oh - and then SHE wants a new pair of shoes and a handbag - but you want door panels.... and then your neighbors get pissed because the POS has sat outside and you've worked on it til midnight -- banging on stuff and making noise.... Then winter comes... and then a year goes by...

Now --- if you have some prior knowledge and skills..... and some tools.... and a place to work on it..... and it's treated as a HOBBY -- and getting her done isn't a priority -- but just being around and hanging with friends and working on some part of the car and having fun gathering and hunting parts etc..... then that's an entirely different scenario..... but you want a driver NOW.... and that's where everyone on here will tell you the same thing. DON'T DO IT.

I didn't mean it for you to build my car, I meant it because you strike me as a mentor and someone I would definitely appreciate to have around.

you just never know what you get but it happens. I don't know how many cars come in and it gets torn apart only to find that its a well dressed rust bucket. I've seen it...$50K mustang vert, $30K 69 Camaro $22K 67 Camaro....all crap.

I don't know how many times I have seen guys blowing their load buying a nice looking car only to find an issue that is too much to fix and they always loose trying to resale.


The 71 Formula that Rickman bought for instance, at first check appeared to be a nice car. After poking around it had hidden rust and about 1/2" of bondo in some spots.

For me I like the cheap crap that you can fix and put parts on it cause you know whats in it when you get to that $20K mark. Most often you are going to replace 90% of the car anyways. I don't know anyone that's "just happy" with the car they find.

Caveat.....shop smart, stick to the plan and the budget.

Its like hitting the bar...never drop for the first piece, sit down for a bit and the right one will be very obvious.

BB seriously, are you looking to build a bad ass $90K pro-touring cone thrower or an average daily driver that will get you there but not get you some? That is what you are gonna get for $10K.

I don't need to throw cones. I've been very fortunate (stationed in Germany) and have actually done several weekends of driving on the Nuerburgring, which is way better than an any xcross event. I can brag about my lap times. My avatar pic is me driving.
I don't need the car to "get me some", Lol. Just something I can drive around and enjoy for yrs and possibly even hand down. I'm not thinking investment of resale, although I know I should as one never knows. But having a 71 Bird just has a special meaning to me.